Souhan:Twins are done

[John Bonnes]

After the four game sweep today, Jim Souhan has concluded the season is over:

 

Their proximity to the top of the division on Sunday afternoon should be far more shocking than their collapse. The Twins rank last in the majors in starting pitching ERA and next-to-last in the American League in team ERA. They rank 10th in the American League in runs scored and next-to-last in home runs.

 

...

 

The rotation is a mess. The bullpen has become one. The lineup lacks power and speed. They have zero players producing a career year. The 2013 Twins are a team without strengths.

 

I guess I can't disagree with most of that. I thnk there are quite a few positive signs, but there is no way this team competes this year. I might argue there probably never was. The hope that this year is giving me is for 2015 & maybe 2014, not 2013.

 

Souhan: Flirtation with competitiveness was but a dream | StarTribune.com

[diehardtwinsfan]

Agree with most, though the pen has been a welcome surprise. If they weren't sure before, they should definitely know now that they are sellers.

[beckmt]

They always should have been sellers. Now they really have to be. The sooner the better for some, because market may become more crowded with sellers as teams fall out this month. Still they need to make good deals, not just deals to cut payroll. It is clear 2014 will be better, but still rebuilding so any veterens not planned on for 2015 should be moved.

[ThePuck]

They always should have been sellers. Now they really have to be. The sooner the better for some, because market may become more crowded with sellers as teams fall out this month. Still they need to make good deals, not just deals to cut payroll. It is clear 2014 will be better, but still rebuilding so any veterens not planned on for 2015 should be moved.

 

out of curiosity, why is it clear 2014 will be better?

[Ozziedavisfan]

maybe it's just that I crabby this morning, but on what planet did anyone think that the twins were going to the playoffs this year? Step forward maybe. But the fact that their in last and under .500 should be a suprise to no one. I hate these articles, shows me he has nothing to write.

[diehardtwinsfan]

out of curiosity, why is it clear 2014 will be better?

 

I would say b/c of the talent transition coming in. Hicks, Arcia, and Gibson should all be improved, as should Plouffe, Parmelee, and Dozier. Mauer will be Mauer. In the minors, you'll see Darnell, Meyer, May, Sano, Rosario, Tonkin, and Pinto all transitioning in at various points throughout the year (some will earn jobs in ST, the others will be moved in over the season). This will likely result in a dramatic improvement to the rotation as well as show some flashes of what could be.

 

I don't expect the 2014 team to win the division, but I do think they will sit around .500 and give fans a lot of hope for 2015 and beyond.

[diehardtwinsfan]

maybe it's just that I crabby this morning, but on what planet did anyone think that the twins were going to the playoffs this year? Step forward maybe. But the fact that their in last and under .500 should be a suprise to no one. I hate these articles, shows me he has nothing to write.

 

Mars perhaps... I agree with you, but at 6 games back prior to this fall, I'm not sure everyone on this board agreed.

[ThePuck]

I would say b/c of the talent transition coming in. Hicks, Arcia, and Gibson should all be improved, as should Plouffe, Parmelee, and Dozier. Mauer will be Mauer. In the minors, you'll see Darnell, Meyer, May, Sano, Rosario, Tonkin, and Pinto all transitioning in at various points throughout the year (some will earn jobs in ST, the others will be moved in over the season). This will likely result in a dramatic improvement to the rotation as well as show some flashes of what could be.

 

I don't expect the 2014 team to win the division, but I do think they will sit around .500 and give fans a lot of hope for 2015 and beyond.

 

That's a lot of assumption that a good chunk of these guys will succeed at the major league level, and do so in their first year. There's too many unproven players on this team, with more to come next year, for me to say next year will clearly be better.

 

Where did you see this team being at before the season started?

[TheLeviathan]

maybe it's just that I crabby this morning, but on what planet did anyone think that the twins were going to the playoffs this year? Step forward maybe. But the fact that their in last and under .500 should be a suprise to no one. I hate these articles, shows me he has nothing to write.

 

There are posts here in the last month that suggest this team could contend. And there was valid reason to at least discuss it because the Tigers are spinning their wheels and we were within striking distance. But Souhan points out the relevant facts:

 

This team isn't very good at scoring runs and isn't very good at preventing them. You won't contend with your best quality being an "ok" bullpen.

[diehardtwinsfan]

That's a lot of assumption that a good chunk of these guys will succeed at the major league level, and do so in their first year. There's too many unproven players on this team, with more to come next year, for me to say next year will clearly be better.

 

Where did you see this team being at before the season started?

 

No where did I say that they will all succeed in the first year, that's why I think the team will play around the .500 mark. What I did say is that Darnell, Meyer, and May will all provide substantial upgrades to a rotation that is one of the worst in baseball now and that overall, they will show flashes of what will be. Some of them will have to succeed at the ML level for them to be a .500 team, but all of them will not have to.

[ThePuck]

maybe it's just that I crabby this morning, but on what planet did anyone think that the twins were going to the playoffs this year? Step forward maybe. But the fact that their in last and under .500 should be a suprise to no one. I hate these articles, shows me he has nothing to write.

 

I easily picked the team to lose 90+ this year. With Ryan's promise to considerably improve the rotation predictably being a mis-truth, this wasn't hard to see coming.

[ThePuck]

No where did I say that they will all succeed in the first year, that's why I think the team will play around the .500 mark. What I did say is that Darnell, Meyer, and May will all provide substantial upgrades to a rotation that is one of the worst in baseball now and that overall, they will show flashes of what will be. Some of them will have to succeed at the ML level for them to be a .500 team, but all of them will not have to.

 

I didn't say all, I said a good chunk. Anyway, you may believe 2014 will be better, but I don't believe it's clear it will be. I surely don't think it's clear we'll be hovering around .500. We don't know May, Darnell, Meyer or Gibson will do anything at this level. That's the problem with trying to make sure-fire predictions with a team with a load of rookie and two year guys.

[ThePuck]

You and most everyone else. What is your point?

 

Read the post I was responding to and you might understand the point. Or maybe you won't, I don't know.

[JB_Iowa]

Totally off the point except that it comes from the Souhan article:

 

On Tuesday afternoon, the Twins honored the pending retirement of legendary Yankees closer Mariano Rivera by giving him a rocking chair made of broken bats, calling it the “Chair of Broken Dreams.”

WHY would you give it to him on TUESDAY afternoon when you still had 2 more games AT HOME with the Yankees (plus another series in New York)?

 

I get that they wanted to give it to him in Minny. I guess I would have waited until Thursday. In some undefined way, this says something to me about the Twins competitiveness with the Yankees.

[Snortwood]

Hicks, Arcia, and Gibson should all be improved, as should Plouffe, Parmelee, and Dozier.

If you're buying stock go long on Hicks and Arcia, hold on Dozier and Plouffe, and sell on Parmelee. Arcia is a player. Hicks will figure out how to make contact w the off speed stuff. Parmelee's inability to get around on the fastball is fatal. Package Dozier and Plouffe and you'd have a solid 2B. Separately they're each inadequate at one major aspect of the game but passable (lower in the lineup!) in the absence of other options .

[Ozziedavisfan]

I'm less crabby now. I do see the twins taking a step forward. And think that we do play in a weak division but that being said I don't think in looking at the twins at the start of the season and where they now I think that for me they are where i though they would be and if they did finish over 500 that would be a major miricle.

[Riverbrian]

maybe it's just that I crabby this morning, but on what planet did anyone think that the twins were going to the playoffs this year? Step forward maybe. But the fact that their in last and under .500 should be a suprise to no one. I hate these articles, shows me he has nothing to write.

 

My planet... I didn't think playoffs but I never discounted the possibility.

 

If the Twins would have swept the Yankees... Souhan would have had to write a different article.

 

As it stands... In my opinion... His article is spot on... This is a team without strengths.

 

Power should have been a strength but its not. 3-4-5 in the order has been dismal.

 

It is much harder but still possible to win without strengths... Just play with some pride!

 

I just watched a team get 4 game swept by David Adams, Alberto Gonzalez, Zoilo Almonte, Lyle Overbay, Luis Cruz and Chris Stewart.

 

I watched Philip Hughes strike out only 3 batters in 7 innings work and 2 of those three strikeouts were Parmelee and Hicks back to back with runners on Third and Second and nobody out. A time when contact should be the only thought on your mind and it wasn't like contact was a problem the rest of the game.

 

These were not the Yankees. This was a team that we have to beat.

 

Unless... They can start a 10 game winning streak today. Souhan is right... It's over and it shakes my planet.

[JB_Iowa]

Well, since the Blue Jays are next up and the Twins are 8-27 against them the last 5 years, I'm not holding my breath for anything to look up in the near future.

 

June seems to have been a bright spot for the Twins the last 3 years ... unfortunately it doesn't last.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Yeah, I think 2014 will be more of the same. The reason if it did get better, would be because of some of the trades/acquisitions Terry Ryan has made between now and then; not because of our prospects. I don't expect any of them to go Trout/Machado-mode right away. I do, however, expect Aaron Hicks to be an above average player next year. The lineup should be an asset for us next year or at least average. Mauer, Hicks, Arcia, Plouffe will give us something to build off of there. 2015 will probably be the year we pick up our game and contend for the division. Until Terry signs some quality starters, we won't be able to make a push.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I just watched a team get 4 game swept by David Adams, Alberto Gonzalez, Zoilo Almonte, Lyle Overbay, Luis Cruz and Chris Stewart.

 

I watched Philip Hughes strike out only 3 batters in 7 innings work and 2 of those three strikeouts were Parmelee and Hicks back to back with runners on Third and Second and nobody out. A time when contact should be the only thought on your mind and it wasn't like contact was a problem the rest of the game.

 

These were not the Yankees. This was a team that we have to beat.

 

I full on agree with that. The Twins essentially gift-wrapped the Yankees the first three games. The wheels fell off for the bullpen and the lineup could not get hits when they needed them most. I could not believe all the fortune New York got when I watched. The Yankees capped off the last game with a solid win though. The Yankees minus well be the Indians this season. Their roster is a joke and I don't believe they will last.

[Kwak]

Souhan wrote a press release for the FO. He laid the groundwork for trading veteran players for "hopefuls" (who have very low salaries) under the guideline that the Twins need to improve in every aspect of the game. The veil has been lifted and it has been acknowledged that the emperor has no clothes. There will be 100,000 posts between now and the start of the 2014 season discussing what should be done, what was done, what shouls have been done and what will happen in 2014. But, unless there are some very big changes in the Active Roster for 2014, there will be no basis to think the corner has been turned and success is at hand. It's nice to say there will be five new rookies next year, but sadly few rookies make a big splash--though when experieced, they may well become stars.

[TheLeviathan]

he lineup should be an asset for us next year or at least average. Mauer, Hicks, Arcia, Plouffe will give us something to build off of there.

 

I remember hearing much the same about the 2013 lineup.

[DaveW]

I would say b/c of the talent transition coming in. Hicks, Arcia, and Gibson should all be improved, as should Plouffe, Parmelee, and Dozier. Mauer will be Mauer. In the minors, you'll see Darnell, Meyer, May, Sano, Rosario, Tonkin, and Pinto all transitioning in at various points throughout the year (some will earn jobs in ST, the others will be moved in over the season). This will likely result in a dramatic improvement to the rotation as well as show some flashes of what could be.

 

I don't expect the 2014 team to win the division, but I do think they will sit around .500 and give fans a lot of hope for 2015 and beyond.

That and the 50+ million they have available to spend in free agency next year. (Even more if they trade Willingham)

[Willihammer]

maybe it's just that I crabby this morning, but on what planet did anyone think that the twins were going to the playoffs this year? Step forward maybe. But the fact that their in last and under .500 should be a suprise to no one. I hate these articles, shows me he has nothing to write.

 

There's a coupla surprise teams every year. The Twins were one of those teams in 2011, why couldn't they be one of them in 2013? Rookies, injuries, really lucky or unlucky guys lighting up, getting lit up, Tommy John, trampolines, suntan booths, whatever. Stuff happens every year to shake things up in a division or two.

 

Nobody projected the 2013 Twins to stroll into the World Series but nobody projected the Brewers to tank so hard or the Pirates to be the best team in baseball. The Pirates' 2 game adantage over the Cardinals is 7 games better than Pythagoras says it should be. The World Series Champs are tied for last place. Nobody can predict these things too well, that's all.

[diehardtwinsfan]

That and the 50+ million they have available to spend in free agency next year. (Even more if they trade Willingham)

 

I highly doubt they spend 20M... much less 50M.

[DaveW]

To be fair we have never seen what Terry Ryan can do with a legit and large FA budget.

[JB_Iowa]

To be fair we have never seen what Terry Ryan can do with a legit and large FA budget.

 

Problem is that I don't think he wants one.

[TheLeviathan]

To be fair we have never seen what Terry Ryan can do with a legit and large FA budget.

 

i remember hearing that prior to 2013 too.

 

I fully expect next year to hear "terry Ryan has never had this much budget room with a contending team". At some point can we all just acknowledge we've seen the extent of Ryan's FA tendencies? I hopehe proves me wrong but this excuse is tired.

[Ozziedavisfan]

My planet... I didn't think playoffs but I never discounted the possibility.

 

If the Twins would have swept the Yankees... Souhan would have had to write a different article.

 

As it stands... In my opinion... His article is spot on... This is a team without strengths.

 

Power should have been a strength but its not. 3-4-5 in the order has been dismal.

 

It is much harder but still possible to win without strengths... Just play with some pride!

 

I just watched a team get 4 game swept by David Adams, Alberto Gonzalez, Zoilo Almonte, Lyle Overbay, Luis Cruz and Chris Stewart.

 

I watched Philip Hughes strike out only 3 batters in 7 innings work and 2 of those three strikeouts were Parmelee and Hicks back to back with runners on Third and Second and nobody out. A time when contact should be the only thought on your mind and it wasn't like contact was a problem the rest of the game.

 

These were not the Yankees. This was a team that we have to beat.

 

Unless... They can start a 10 game winning streak today. Souhan is right... It's over and it shakes my planet.

dude, I believe in the twins, so much so that when NYT bashes them , I want to remind them that from 1980 to 1995 they didn't so much as sniff the playoffs when i was growing up out there. I feel you there. I do agree that there was a chance that at the start of the season if mauer morneau and willingham had been hitting as they should in key spots, and the starting pitching had been better we would have been in a better sititution. But still as much as I want to think that the twins are going to win the world series every year, I think I knew that whlie there would be improvement, this would be a rebuilding and get a high draft pick year.

[Boom Boom]

To be fair we have never seen what Terry Ryan can do with a legit and large FA budget.

 

"Large" FA budget is relative. TR may have had his biggest FA budget to date going in to 2013, and he stuck with the same blueprint he always used. Injury reclamation projects and low-level veterans.