Zimmerman trial

[PseudoSABR]

Sticking with that baseless claim huh? Wow. I'm just going to leave it right there, I have nothing to say past that.

I cleaned it up a little, while you were quoting it. But yeah, I stand by that you treat reasonable liberals* far different than you do reasonable conservatives.

 

*I suppose this opens up to how unreasonable and crazy I am, and how liberalism itself is some exercise in illogic.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Okay, this conversation needs to steer itself into a more productive direction or the thread is going to be locked. If it continues down this path, locks and bans and all that fun stuff will be handed out. Tread lightly.

[glunn]

Please tone this down my friends. We allow a bit of extra latitude on non-baseball threads, but this is getting out of hand. You can debate passionately, but the labeling and disrespect need to stop.

[biggentleben]

deleted by admin

 

Wow. Really?

[Brock Beauchamp]

deleted by admin

 

Blatant violation of the rules immediately following two moderators telling the thread to cool it.

 

I mean, come on.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I cannot help but think that this argument over racism completely misses the point. Murder is murder. Manslaughter is manslaughter. If I murder someone b/c I hate black people, it doesn't make my crime any worse than if I killed someone because I wanted to know what it was like.

 

To me, race really clouds this issue. We have a dead kid right now whose death could have been prevented. The issue at hand is not whether or not Zimmerman was racist... It doesn't matter. The issue is whether Zimmerman was negligent in the way he acted so as to lead up to the death of Martin. The question I cannot seem to personally get beyond is that he tailed a 17 year old kid in a car and then on foot. What would a reasonble and prudent indvidual do when they realize they are being followed in that manner? What should they do? Go talk to him? Run? Defend themselves?

 

I know personally, I'd be looking for a weapon, because I may need to stand my ground. Martin clearly thought he needed to do that. Perhaps he was being a hothead, but simply based on the undisputed facts, this situation was preventable. I could care less WHY Zimmerman followed Martin. I dont' think it matters. What does matter is that there's a dead kid out there, and that death would have been preventable had Zimmerman followed the rules of the neighborhood watch that he was a part of.

[PseudoSABR]

I don't want to take away from the issues you raise, because I believe they are important, but there's lots of issue at hand--please read what Questlove wrote in the article above and even listen Obama's speech. For a young Black man to walk around at night alone, this kind of case certainly makes them feel more unsafe. What issues are important has to do with who you are, and the social/cultural vantage from which you come. If one person wishes to discuss the racial injustice the incidences raise, it doesn't diminish in anyway the conversation you wish to have. I just want to add that, I don't really care to debate it all over again.

[Badsmerf]

Just to be clear, never thought Pseudo was being a dick to me (he's a softy and I'm usually the one being a dick). I've been busy and haven't been able to comment, sorry for missing the convo comrades.

 

Why does race have to be pulled into any situation where a white person kills a black person? It goes the other way easily as often and for blatant racism that doesn't get near the attention. I understand racism is bad, but the story being inflated into something that wasn't supported by evidence has led to a murder being without any justice. Zimmerman acted in a way that was negligent, not in a way that he hated black kids.

 

If anyone wants to debate black people getting profiled we can start a different thread about it, as I don't think that is really what this thread is about. There are many cases I would agree that racism is a motivation, this is not one. Hooded teenager, regardless of color would have been in his radar.

 

I'm also in the camp that "hate" crimes are a shortsighted attempt by the courts to end racism. I don't agree that we can attribute special circumstances to a crime that was done for any specific reason. We don't punish sex offenders more severely if they like boys more than girls. In fact, in order to classify a "hate" crime you have to prove what motivated it, which is much different than actually proving if a crime was committed.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Why does race have to be pulled into any situation where a white person kills a black person? It goes the other way easily as often and for blatant racism that doesn't get near the attention. I understand racism is bad, but the story being inflated into something that wasn't supported by evidence has led to a murder being without any justice. Zimmerman acted in a way that was negligent, not in a way that he hated black kids.

 

Actually, I think this point is exactly why race should be talked about in this case. It's not that Zimmerman is a blatant racist; he may or may not be... I don't really know.

 

It's the kind of creeping, pervasive racism that is really a problem in this country. We look down at people who walk around, using the N-word and outwardly speaking out against black people. That's not the problem. Those people are easily identified and called out as racist by the general public.

 

What should be the real concern in the Zimmerman trial is "Would he have followed a white kid?" He may have, he may not have... We don't know. But, given the plethora of evidence we have as a society, there was a higher chance that he'd view a black child suspiciously. As a society, we still have a real problem with the casual perception of race; black people are generally viewed more negatively than white people, even when they're just going about their day doing normal things.

 

And that's a huge problem. And that's why we need to talk about these kinds of things. The Zimmerman case might not be the best example but it's in the public eye and we shouldn't pass up the opportunity to think and talk about why we perceive these inequalities as a society because they sure aren't going to fix themselves if everybody just keeps quiet about it.

[Squirrel]

Actually, I think this point is exactly why race should be talked about in this case. It's not that Zimmerman is a blatant racist; he may or may not be... I don't really know.

 

It's the kind of creeping, pervasive racism that is really a problem in this country. We look down at people who walk around, using the N-word and outwardly speaking out against black people. That's not the problem. Those people are easily identified and called out as racist by the general public.

 

What should be the real concern in the Zimmerman trial is "Would he have followed a white kid?" He may have, he may not have... We don't know. But, given the plethora of evidence we have as a society, there was a higher chance that he'd view a black child suspiciously. As a society, we still have a real problem with the casual perception of race; black people are generally viewed more negatively than white people, even when they're just going about their day doing normal things.

 

And that's a huge problem. And that's why we need to talk about these kinds of things. The Zimmerman case might not be the best example but it's in the public eye and we shouldn't pass up the opportunity to think and talk about why we perceive these inequalities as a society because they sure aren't going to fix themselves if everybody just keeps quiet about it.

 

Thank you! Exactly! It's not the overt cases, it's other times when it may be more subtle or even subconscious. My best friend is black. While I don't know all her stories, I know enough of them and have witnessed a few. It's subtle ... being ignored unintentionally, or intentionally, the hesitation, double takes, people walking around us ... but it's there. We all have experienced 'that' feeling when you walk into a room and the atmosphere changes, not knowing what or why. Imagine that being the case a majority of the time. And most of the time people do not even realize they are treating anyone any differently. I can't even say with certainty I have never done this. I ride the buses in Chicago, the ones heading to the south side that are predominantly black. Have I ever made the choice to stand toward the front rather than take an empty seat in the back for some subconscious reason? I notice others doing this all the time. Anyway, while the 'race issue' is not the reason to try or not try Zimmerman for killing Martin, the discussion of 'Would this have happened if ...' is very valid.

[Badsmerf]

I'm going to call a name, Brock, if you want you can edit my post. Naive. That is what people are that ask this question about race. You want to know why black males get racially profiled?

 

Project America: Crime: Prison Population: Prison Population by Race

 

Quick and dirty graph, but it illustrates why. Black males are far and away the most likely profile to be in jail. Now, I understand there are other factors that can contribute to black males being in jail more often than white males. However, the discrepancy is far too great to attribute it to simple things like money to fight cases (especially since that itself is profiling white males). That is my problem with people pulling the race card. Simply put, the numbers support black males being more likely to commit crimes. I've seen this in many more places than this one site, and would be open to anyone providing real evidence that states otherwise.

 

Just like in baseball, when the numbers point to something so obvious, you can't just ignore it. Part of the problem is "the system" but there is also a cultural problem. Anyone that has spent time in urban Minneapolis can attest to the diseased attitude that exists there.

 

Since we want to discuss race in this case, I think you have a point Brock. However, I would be playing the numbers (like L vs. R splits IMO) if I found a young black male that looked suspicious. Is that racism or is that recognizing trends? This is where I believe things get too murky. If the black community wants to stop this they need to stop getting put in jail. I'm sure somebody will have evidence that refutes what I've written, and I claim to be no expert in racial criminal justice.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Thank you! Exactly! It's not the overt cases, it's other times when it may be more subtle or even subconscious. My best friend is black. While I don't know all her stories, I know enough of them and have witnessed a few. It's subtle ... being ignored unintentionally, or intentionally, the hesitation, double takes, people walking around us ... but it's there. We all have experienced 'that' feeling when you walk into a room and the atmosphere changes, not knowing what or why. Imagine that being the case a majority of the time. And most of the time people do not even realize they are treating anyone any differently. I can't even say with certainty I have never done this. I ride the buses in Chicago, the ones heading to the south side that are predominantly black. Have I ever made the choice to stand toward the front rather than take an empty seat in the back for some subconscious reason? I notice others doing this all the time. Anyway, while the 'race issue' is not the reason to try or not try Zimmerman for killing Martin, the discussion of 'Would this have happened if ...' is very valid.

 

We've all done it. I've caught myself doing it more times than I can count. Hell, most of my black friends admit that they do it. It's almost an instinctual reaction and that's just wrong... But it will never be fixed unless we make a conscious decision to do it and opening discourse about it is the only way to make that happen. Trying to brush every race-related thing under the rug because the peg doesn't fit the hole just right isn't going to get us anywhere.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm going to call a name, Brock, if you want you can edit my post. Naive. That is what people are that ask this question about race. You want to know why black males get racially profiled?

 

Project America: Crime: Prison Population: Prison Population by Race

 

Quick and dirty graph, but it illustrates why. Black males are far and away the most likely profile to be in jail. Now, I understand there are other factors that can contribute to black males being in jail more often than white males. However, the discrepancy is far too great to attribute it to simple things like money to fight cases (especially since that itself is profiling white males). That is my problem with people pulling the race card. Simply put, the numbers support black males being more likely to commit crimes. I've seen this in many more places than this one site, and would be open to anyone providing real evidence that states otherwise.

 

Just like in baseball, when the numbers point to something so obvious, you can't just ignore it. Part of the problem is "the system" but there is also a cultural problem. Anyone that has spent time in urban Minneapolis can attest to the diseased attitude that exists there.

 

Since we want to discuss race in this case, I think you have a point Brock. However, I would be playing the numbers (like L vs. R splits IMO) if I found a young black male that looked suspicious. Is that racism or is that recognizing trends? This is where I believe things get too murky. If the black community wants to stop this they need to stop getting put in jail. I'm sure somebody will have evidence that refutes what I've written, and I claim to be no expert in racial criminal justice.

 

Well, to refute your point succintly:

 

Black men are punished far more harshly than their white counterparts for the same crime. It's not that they're punished a little more... They're punished a lot more.

 

I know you're not doing this intentionally but you're kinda blaming black people for being... well, black. This isn't entirely a "black problem" (though I'm certainly not refuting that culture does play a part in this situation). It's an "everybody problem". White people need to stop treating black people differently. The middle class needs to stop looking down at the poor. Black people need to re-evaluate who they look up to and respect within their own communities as role models.

 

This is on everybody. It's way to easy to cast blame for one thing or another but when we get right down to it, this problem is way too big to be the fault of any one group of people (though it's hard to deny that white men share the biggest slice of the blame for this one).

[Badsmerf]

Trying to brush every race-related thing under the rug because the peg doesn't fit the hole just right isn't going to get us anywhere.

I completely agree. But the bigger question should be why is this happening! I don't think the answer is quick and easy. I don't think ending racism is the answer or realistic. I think the answer is more complicated and more difficult, which is why it has been a major problem for nearly a century. I really haven't spent enough time in discussions, research, or time spent brainstorming to come up with a valid solution (we all know I could if I wanted to though).

[Brock Beauchamp]

I completely agree. But the bigger question should be why is this happening! I don't think the answer is quick and easy. I don't think ending racism is the answer or realistic. I think the answer is more complicated and more difficult, which is why it has been a major problem for nearly a century. I really haven't spent enough time in discussions, research, or time spent brainstorming to come up with a valid solution (we all know I could if I wanted to though).

 

Agreed. While the type of subversive racism I've talked about mostly needs to dealt with on a personal level, the biggest cure for racism in America is fixing the increasing gap in socio-economic status. Being poor is a huge hurdle... Being poor and black (as so many are)... well, you're pretty much screwed at that point.

 

Narrow that gap a bit and many of the racism problems start to dissipate a little. It won't make them go away but it will help a whole bunch.

[Badsmerf]

I understand your points Brock, and I think you have some very valid points. At the very base of the issue though, I blame the people who are committing the crimes. It is the personal responsibility model I have been raised by which looks at an event that happens and the easiest way to change the outcome is by my actions. Outside influences only play a part. I don't disagree with the sentencing being proportional, I don't disagree that white people play a part or that lower class citizens deserve to have more respect. However, it isn't easy to respect a group of people (not all BTW) that are in the position they are for the continued choices they make.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I understand your points Brock, and I think you have some very valid points. At the very base of the issue though, I blame the people who are committing the crimes. It is the personal responsibility model I have been raised by which looks at an event that happens and the easiest way to change the outcome is by my actions. Outside influences only play a part. I don't disagree with the sentencing being proportional, I don't disagree that white people play a part or that lower class citizens deserve to have more respect. However, it isn't easy to respect a group of people (not all BTW) that are in the position they are for the continued choices they make.

 

I'm not absolving people of their crimes at all. They need to be punished for committing a crime.

 

On the other hand, society should try harder to give poor people (poor black people in particular) better options that don't involve committing crimes. When you have nothing, no one around you has nothing, and there are no prospects for you to ever have anything, why not commit a crime? At that point, what do you really have to lose as a person? Your freedom? Who cares?

 

To dissuade people from committing a crime, first you have to make their life outside jail of a high enough quality where they actually feel as if they're losing something by going to jail. Increasing punishment isn't a deterrent because their life outside jail is so awful to begin with. It's like threatening to take away a blind man's eyeglasses as extra punishment. What does he care?

[Badsmerf]

How are you going to narrow that gap? I struggle with this too. I believe the gap is far far too wide between the socioeconomic groups. The rich are too rich and the poor too poor. The distribution used to be much more gradual, and now... exponential would be an understatement. I feel liberal when I look at it (and a little dirty and sexy at the same time...). But it is real. Outside of taking this money away from these people, I don't see it changing. Unfortunately this reality is the America that we live in. It is not the opportunistic society that existed 30 years ago.

[Brock Beauchamp]

How are you going to narrow that gap? I struggle with this too. I believe the gap is far far too wide between the socioeconomic groups. The rich are too rich and the poor too poor. The distribution used to be much more gradual, and now... exponential would be an understatement. I feel liberal when I look at it (and a little dirty and sexy at the same time...). But it is real. Outside of taking this money away from these people, I don't see it changing. Unfortunately this reality is the America that we live in. It is not the opportunistic society that existed 30 years ago.

 

I've always believed that we need to start with education. Tear the throat out of the American education system. Break the teacher's union who fight every change, whether it's good for the kids or not. Pay teachers a competitive wage to attract more of the best and brightest. Destroy the faculty system that eats far too many of the school's resources for so little direct involvement with the kids. Restructure this asinine 185 day school year that is based around friggin' farm seasons. Stop basing school funding on property tax revenue. I mean, COME ON. Blow the whole damned thing up.

 

It's a long-term fix but IMO, it's the smartest fix we could make.

[Badsmerf]

To ask the same question, which you'll probably answer before I'm done posting, is how? I've struggled to get where I'm at and I come from a wealthy family and have a good education. Salaries at lower end jobs just don't provide enough incentive for people to not only just keep them, but accept them in the first place. I'm starting to think Fight Club isn't a bad idea.

[TheLeviathan]

I've always believed that we need to start with education. Tear the throat out of the American education system. Break the teacher's union who fight every change, whether it's good for the kids or not. Pay teachers a competitive wage to attract more of the best and brightest. Destroy the faculty system that eats far too many of the school's resources for so little direct involvement with the kids. Restructure this asinine 185 day school year that is based around friggin' farm seasons. Stop basing school funding on property tax revenue. I mean, COME ON. Blow the whole damned thing up.

 

It's a long-term fix but IMO, it's the smartest fix we could make.

 

For the record, I used to be on the school schedule thing myself. Extensive research shows that it's actually not better for anyone to go year round, or at least, it doesn't bring anything more. Your last revenue is really the key to this issue and why it is so critical to resist voucher systems. (I'd argue the faculty systems point is a bit odd, education is a people-heavy system, the more people you have working with kids, the better. The cost that is really sky-rocketing is special education and that is an issue all to itself)

 

At the same time, it will be critical for those schools to make sure they are safe, respectful, disciplined, and that education is valued in the community. Good ideas for this would be uniforms, strong faculty, and a lot of community outreach.

[Brock Beauchamp]

For the record, I used to be on the school schedule thing myself. Extensive research shows that it's actually not better for anyone to go year round, or at least, it doesn't bring anything more. Your last revenue is really the key to this issue and why it is so critical to resist voucher systems. (I'd argue the faculty systems point is a bit odd, education is a people-heavy system, the more people you have working with kids, the better. The cost that is really sky-rocketing is special education and that is an issue all to itself)

 

At the same time, it will be critical for those schools to make sure they are safe, respectful, disciplined, and that education is valued in the community. Good ideas for this would be uniforms, strong faculty, and a lot of community outreach.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating year-round schools as much as I'm advocating a longer school year. The US goes to school for less days than most other industrialized countries. The side effect is that nine month school would be largely eliminated.

 

My point about faculty is about support staff, not teachers. I'm all for more teachers. I'm not in favor of $150k principal salaries (but even principals are better than district-level employees, who swallow up too much money that should be directed straight to the schools themselves).

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not necessarily advocating year-round schools as much as I'm advocating a longer school year. The US goes to school for less days than most other industrialized countries. The side effect is that nine month school would be largely eliminated.

 

But we go about the same as Finland who far out-achieves us. I'm not so sure that issue is all that relevant. We could extend it slightly, but it's probably a moot issue. At least that's what research/studies are showing.

 

My point about faculty is about support staff, not teachers. I'm all for more teachers. I'm not in favor of $150k principal salaries (but even principals are better than district-level employees, who swallow up too much money that should be directed straight to the schools themselves).

 

Well, that's more administrative. "Support staff" can be misleading because that can include para-professionals which is a position most schools are desperately thin on because the pay is so low and the job is so crappy. I'd agree that districts could be leaner - I'd actually like to see them increase teacher pay significiantly to take on some of those roles. Or to have multiple hats on one person (curriculum advisor, tech coordinator, etc.)

[diehardtwinsfan]

I completely agree. But the bigger question should be why is this happening! I don't think the answer is quick and easy. I don't think ending racism is the answer or realistic. I think the answer is more complicated and more difficult, which is why it has been a major problem for nearly a century. I really haven't spent enough time in discussions, research, or time spent brainstorming to come up with a valid solution (we all know I could if I wanted to though).

 

Truthfully, I don't think the answer here is race. It's family.

 

If you look at family structures, one thing you can say for certain is that the lack of a stable two parent family correlates much better to crime rates than the color of one's skin. If a kid grows up without a dad, he's far more likely to be in the system.

 

I'm not advocating forcing society to stick to a two person family is not the answer, but I don't think you can have this discussion and ignore that data.