Article: Trade Talk: The Atlanta Braves

[John Bonnes]

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=1993-Trade-Talk-The-Atlanta-Braves

[diehardtwinsfan]

Not terribly excited about the SS you have listed, but those pitching prospects all look nice.

[johnnydakota]

Cleveland and Boston are better fits, with better prospect returns .

As for trading Perkins for A ball players, that is not an option .

If traded ,we need to get AA or better prospects.

 

Cleveland has AA shortstop Ronny Rodriquez and RHP Danny Salazar.

Boston has the # 3 prospect at SS in Bogaerts, but we could build a package for him and a couple others,Think Justin, Trevor and Glen Perkins plus a couple 10-20 ranked prospects

for Middlebrook,Allen Webster,and Bogaerts

[AScheib50]

Would you trade Sano for that package you mentioned? Cuz that's what you are asking Boston to do for Bogaerts. That kid looks like a stud. Not a lot of value going to Bos and plenty coming back.

[Kwak]

Trade Perkins for low-level minor leaguers? Seems like at cross-purposes to present policy of signing a few "value-veterans" to add a few more wins while rebuilding the team. I am convinced if that trade were consummated the Twins would repeat their 2011 disaster: late July to end-of-season collapse.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Trade Perkins for low-level minor leaguers? Seems like at cross-purposes to present policy of signing a few "value-veterans" to add a few more wins while rebuilding the team. I am convinced if that trade were consummated the Twins would repeat their 2011 disaster: late July to end-of-season collapse.

 

Who cares if they have a 2011 style collapse? Do you honestly think they are contenders now?

 

The Twins are not in a "right now" mode. They are building for the future. If they trade off a few of those "value-veterans" to aquire additional pieces for their next run and end up drafting a bit higher next year, great. They aren't going to win anything this year, so letting some rookies play every day and seeing a few more ticks in the L column is hardly devestating.

[jimbo92107]

Mauricio Cabrera is the only one that's even mildly interesting. Twins have guys just like those others strewn throughout their system.

[PeanutsFromHeaven]

Nice start to a really interesting series. Would you say there's any replacement level player or young minor leaguer/ex-prospect who might be blocked or squeezed out of the Braves system (Please tell me Brandon Beachy or Omar Poveda is a total pipe dream either in terms availability or return to prominence)

[Kwak]

Who cares if they have a 2011 style collapse? Do you honestly think they are contenders now?

 

The Twins are not in a "right now" mode. They are building for the future. If they trade off a few of those "value-veterans" to aquire additional pieces for their next run and end up drafting a bit higher next year, great. They aren't going to win anything this year, so letting some rookies play every day and seeing a few more ticks in the L column is hardly devestating.

 

Which begs the question--why bother to win at all? They signed Willingham, Carroll, Marquis, Doumit, Correira, Pelfrey, to win--what meaningless games? Maybe to avoid the appearance of trying to lose in order to select sooner in the draft and cut budget. Or perhaps it really was to put a better team on the field and not repeat 2011 (which is my opinion)?

[Joe A. Preusser]

I've said it already, but it MUST take a "Meyer or better" pitching prospect or a MLB ready SS that can hit and play good defense ~Elvis Andrus as a rookie, etc. Anything else and we'd be much better off keeping Glen, much better off.

[Joe A. Preusser]

Who cares if they have a 2011 style collapse? Do you honestly think they are contenders now?

 

The Twins are not in a "right now" mode. They are building for the future. If they trade off a few of those "value-veterans" to aquire additional pieces for their next run and end up drafting a bit higher next year, great. They aren't going to win anything this year, so letting some rookies play every day and seeing a few more ticks in the L column is hardly devestating.

 

All valid points, but why don't you think that Perkins can be part of that next wave?

 

He's cheap.

He's a hometown guy.

He's signed for 3 more years.

He's really good.

 

Unless we are offered the farm, he looks like a nice building piece to me.

[iastfan112]

All valid points, but why don't you think that Perkins can be part of that next wave?

 

He's cheap.

He's a hometown guy.

He's signed for 3 more years.

He's really good.

 

Unless we are offered the farm, he looks like a nice building piece to me.

 

Don't think the prospect has to be quite Alex Meyer level(even if he's dominant Perkins effects less innings then Span) but you are right, there's a number of reasons he's worth holding onto if a good return isn't there. That said, the compelling reason for trading Perkins is that he's at peak value. He's over 30 and in the middle of what will probably be a career year and is closing effectively. One only needs to look at Willingham to see how his trade value could be significantly reduced in a years time.

[Riverbrian]

July 1... 6 games out... We all seem to feel that the Twins are not contenders and maybe rightly so...

 

However... It's July 1 and the Twins are 6 games out. It's not out of the question... That the Twins could be much closer by the all star break. Single A players won't help much if that happens.

[Winston Smith]

6 games out? Right now the Tigers and Indians are on pace to win 87-88 games. For the Twins to win 88 games they must go 52-32 the rest of the way a .620 clip. Going from having the 8 th worst record to the best. What have you seen out of this team to make you think that could happen?

[TheLeviathan]

I get the Boston talk, but I wouldn't deal for Beantown specs. It may be an unfair bias, but their specs seem to always underperform their hype.

[diehardtwinsfan]

All valid points, but why don't you think that Perkins can be part of that next wave?

 

He's cheap.

He's a hometown guy.

He's signed for 3 more years.

He's really good.

 

Unless we are offered the farm, he looks like a nice building piece to me.

 

I didn't say he couldn't. You can read my comments in the trade thread for Perkins where I say I wouldn't do it unless he got a nice return.

 

I do think that closers tend to be overrated, so trading one at what would be his peak value isn't necessarily a bad idea either.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Which begs the question--why bother to win at all? They signed Willingham, Carroll, Marquis, Doumit, Correira, Pelfrey, to win--what meaningless games? Maybe to avoid the appearance of trying to lose in order to select sooner in the draft and cut budget. Or perhaps it really was to put a better team on the field and not repeat 2011 (which is my opinion)?

 

Whatever their intent after 2011 and 2012 to sign those guys, the bottom line is that it hasn't worked. This team may only be 6 teams back, but there is nothing that indicates that it's capable of playing at the level needed to pass 3 other teams much less advance into the playoffs if by chance they made it... That makes you a seller... Period. The future looks very bright for this team. If they can use the present to augement it a bit, give valuable development time to rookies, and draft a bit higher next year, you do it.

[SwainZag]

Which begs the question--why bother to win at all? They signed Willingham, Carroll, Marquis, Doumit, Correira, Pelfrey, to win--what meaningless games? Maybe to avoid the appearance of trying to lose in order to select sooner in the draft and cut budget. Or perhaps it really was to put a better team on the field and not repeat 2011 (which is my opinion)?

 

Yes, you sign players to win games, but come on a good GM knows if their team is good enough to compete or not. While I am happy with what level the team is playing out this year, they are no where near a team that is ready to compete. All of those guys you listed were guys brought in to fill holes for now or serve as place markers for others until they get here.

 

Do you think the Twins really brought in Correia and Pelfrey this year to push them over the hump to win it all? No, they brought them in because they were fairly cheap usable options that will fill holes, and might have future value if they play their cards right. Most teams aren't the Yankees, Dodgers and BoSox where they can just decide on a whim they want to go for it this year.

[RedBull34]

Frankly I don't think anybody is going to be able to match what the Twins want. I think that the Twins should only sell Perkins for a massive overpay like Bogaerts. However I massively doubt that will happen. The only option I would be disappointed with is trading Perkins for nothing less than a projectable future impact player.

[Riverbrian]

6 games out? Right now the Tigers and Indians are on pace to win 87-88 games. For the Twins to win 88 games they must go 52-32 the rest of the way a .620 clip. Going from having the 8 th worst record to the best. What have you seen out of this team to make you think that could happen?

 

I'm not saying that I think it will happen... Just saying that its not out of the question.

 

What have I seen out of this team??? Pretty much sub par play out of the offense and Starting Pitching and still only 6 games out in spite of that.

 

What if you take the "sub" out of sub par with just a little improved play going forward.

 

What if hitters like Willingham, Morneau, and Doumit just start hitting to their personal averages or Parm and Hicks start settling in and just simply contribute.

 

Teams go on hot and cold streaks all the time. One real good hot streak and we are right there and we really haven't seen a hot streak out of some pretty key players and yet we are only 6 games out.

 

It ain't out of the question. In my opinion. I'm not betting on it but I've seen it before.

[snepp]

Who cares if they have a 2011 style collapse?

 

 

I do. Losing sucks and I'm already sick of going into full apathy mode by the middle of August.

[JB_Iowa]

 

Teams go on hot and cold streaks all the time. One real good hot streak and we are right there and we really haven't seen a hot streak out of some pretty key players and yet we are only 6 games out.

 

It ain't out of the question. In my opinion. I'm not betting on it but I've seen it before.

 

But even if you are right and the Twins could somehow sneak into the playoffs, I don't want them to go that direction -- because there is no doubt in my mind that they are not a championship caliber team.

 

I want to see them make moves toward a solid championship team -- and that means some short term sacrifices for long term improvement.

[SwainZag]

I'm not saying that I think it will happen... Just saying that its not out of the question.

 

What have I seen out of this team??? Pretty much sub par play out of the offense and Starting Pitching and still only 6 games out in spite of that.

 

What if you take the "sub" out of sub par with just a little improved play going forward.

 

What if hitters like Willingham, Morneau, and Doumit just start hitting to their personal averages or Parm and Hicks start settling in and just simply contribute.

 

Teams go on hot and cold streaks all the time. One real good hot streak and we are right there and we really haven't seen a hot streak out of some pretty key players and yet we are only 6 games out.

 

It ain't out of the question. In my opinion. I'm not betting on it but I've seen it before.

 

So if all the team's underachievers turn it around and the team sneaks back into the hunt, what does that mean? The team does not have the players to win this year. Worst case scenerio IMO, is if this team does go on a run and finds them to be buyers at the deadline.

 

It will put them in that position where they won't deal players they should and hopefully not trade for players it shouldn't. If they trade for players it will only push back the timeline that this team can really compete, at least in my mind.

[Kwak]

Yes, you sign players to win games, but come on a good GM knows if their team is good enough to compete or not. While I am happy with what level the team is playing out this year, they are no where near a team that is ready to compete. All of those guys you listed were guys brought in to fill holes for now or serve as place markers for others until they get here.

 

Do you think the Twins really brought in Correia and Pelfrey this year to push them over the hump to win it all? No, they brought them in because they were fairly cheap usable options that will fill holes, and might have future value if they play their cards right. Most teams aren't the Yankees, Dodgers and BoSox where they can just decide on a whim they want to go for it this year.

 

My point exactly! Willingham, et al were not signed to make the team a contender, they were signed to make the team not stink. They were 66-96 last season, what do you think they would have done without the four that were signed prior to the 2012 season? It might have been epicly ugly if the Twins were forced to promote from within to take those roster/lineup spots. It shows that the FO was sensitive (to a point) to the W/L record and were not totally slash and burn (cf FLA and HOU) while under reconstruction.

[old nurse]

My point exactly! Willingham, et al were not signed to make the team a contender, they were signed to make the team not stink. They were 66-96 last season, what do you think they would have done without the four that were signed prior to the 2012 season? It might have been epicly ugly if the Twins were forced to promote from within to take those roster/lineup spots. It shows that the FO was sensitive (to a point) to the W/L record and were not totally slash and burn (cf FLA and HOU) while under reconstruction.

What would last year have been like if Liriano pitched like he is this year, Baker not injured and Pavano returned to 2010 form and not have been injured? You may guess at the front office motives for signing what they did but put on FO rose collared optimistic glasses and you would have thought you could compete. If you viewed 2011 as the aberration and a return to form for 2012 the you might think you could compete. Then the arms fell off and 2012 went the way it did.

[SwainZag]

I do. Losing sucks and I'm already sick of going into full apathy mode by the middle of August.

 

2011 was the perfect storm and we ALL know it here. There were so many injuries that looking back it was almost comical. What teams loses 2 former MVP players for the season? Not to mention only 3 position players played more than 100 games that year.

 

Not to mention that Butera got almost 300 AB and the complete crapfest that was Nishioka.

 

I hate losing too, it sucks, but there's more potential for this team that they have had in a long time. I would much rather take another losing summer than a couple of haphazard trades to help the team with 5-7 more games in September, get a worse draft pick and trade off prospects to make it happen.

[Riverbrian]

But even if you are right and the Twins could somehow sneak into the playoffs, I don't want them to go that direction -- because there is no doubt in my mind that they are not a championship caliber team.

 

I want to see them make moves toward a solid championship team -- and that means some short term sacrifices for long term improvement.

 

I understand... However sometimes... Teams can and do put a Monkey in the Wrench and how they look on paper matters little when they are putting fly's in the ointment. If the teams starts to win... I don't think it makes sense to try and hold them back.

 

Oriole and A's fans were singing the same "team on paper" tune last year.

 

July 1 2012... The Orioles admittedly had a better record than we do now but they were still 6 games out on July 1.

 

July 1 2012... The A's were 12 games out with a record of 38-42.

 

Once you make the playoffs... Anything can happen.

 

If the Twins are 3 games out at the all star break. TR may have to take a hard look at someone like Bud Norris.

 

As for the Braves specifically... They are certainly buyers... I don't see them as a decent trading partner at this moment.

 

If SS Pastornicky can be picked up for Minor Leaguer who ranks down the totem pole a bit... He could provide some value for us this year and next year.

 

The Catcher Christian Bethencourt would help strengthen an organizational weakness but I'm not sure who I'd be willing to give up for him since he seems to be considered a defensive catcher over offensive catcher.

 

Do the Braves need Morneau? I'm not sure they do with a healthy Freeman. Willingham wouldn't have a place to play... They don't seem to need Doumit with Gattis and McCann hanging around.

 

Perkins would be welcome on any team and Plouffe would be a solid addition to the Braves.

 

Do the the Braves have anybody that makes sense for Perkins or Plouffe? I don't see it.

[JB_Iowa]

 

Once you make the playoffs... Anything can happen.

 

To me this is one of the most overused phrases on this site. Despite John Bonnes' article last year, I will never believe it when used in general with regard to an AL Central team.

 

This current Twins team just doesn't have the pitching horses to do anything against teams with winning records.

 

And, unfortunately, I believe that being in the AL Central has been a dis-incentive to the Twins to do what they need to do to get to that championship caliber point (and I mean champion of something beyond the AL Central). It gives a false sense of security -- why take risks if you are going to rake in money and make the playoffs? There is no incentive to be better than "just good enough" to win the AL Central.

 

And to see the possibility raised of not pursuing trades this year because they might somehow squeak into the playoffs makes my blood boil.

 

Not accepting a trade because you are not offered enough is one thing. Not accepting a trade at this point because somehow the other teams in your division may be bad enough to lose to you and somehow miraculously let you squeak in to the playoffs is another. The Twins have been there, done that. It isn't enough for me anymore. Despite the pain of the last 2 1/2 years, at least it was SO bad that it gave hope that the Twins might have to do something different. I do not want to see them sacrifice the possibility of long-term gains for some miraculous playoff run this season.

[johnnydakota]

Would you trade Sano for that package you mentioned? Cuz that's what you are asking Boston to do for Bogaerts. That kid looks like a stud. Not a lot of value going to Bos and plenty coming back.

 

Well with Boston leading the division , They may be willing to pay to win this year. Also they would get 2 reletivly cheap solutions for the next 3 years and a left handed Rbi gold glove 1st baseman ....Add in a couple of prospects,who knows.If we are not going to get a good package for Glen , then dont trade him

[johnnydakota]

What would last year have been like if Liriano pitched like he is this year, Baker not injured and Pavano returned to 2010 form and not have been injured? You may guess at the front office motives for signing what they did but put on FO rose collared optimistic glasses and you would have thought you could compete. If you viewed 2011 as the aberration and a return to form for 2012 the you might think you could compete. Then the arms fell off and 2012 went the way it did.

 

And this year ? We need 3 pretty good pitchers and infield help.

What did we get ? we got 31 million extra for ownership ....

This years team was put together to have a fire sale, but has overachived.