Scholarship expiring?

[stringer bell]

Diamond started the season on the DL, but was expected to be the Twins best starter. He has had some good appearances, but his overall numbers are the worst of the current starting rotation in the month of June. Is it possible that the Twins could send him down to Rochester and promote either Albers or Gibson?

[Willihammer]

I think Diamond earned his spot in the rotation with his performance last year. Now Worley and Pelfrey were/are on scholarships.

 

I chalk it up to rust.

[bl]

I wouldn't hate sending diamond down for Gibson. Gibson's innings limit will expire around the end of July. Hopefully by then Diamond will have gotten back to the form he was in last year.

[fairweather]

The league is hitting .314/.310/.571 off Diamonds curveball. The Twins don't need pitchers without a decent off speed pitch in the rotation. Worley didn't have one and he's gone. Why would the Twins treat Diamond any different?

[scottz]

I wouldn't hate sending diamond down for Gibson. Gibson's innings limit will expire around the end of July. Hopefully by then Diamond will have gotten back to the form he was in last year.

 

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Send Diamond down to work on a few things and when Gibby (we're tight so I can call him Gibby) hits his limit, bring Diamond back if he is right. If he is still struggling, let Albers have a go, or even one of the highly anticipated prospects. It still gives them the opportunity to showcase Pelfrey before the trade deadline.

[fairweather]

I don't like Pelfrey either. The Twins should replace Pelf and Diamond with Gibson and Albers and look to the future. Pelfrey is never going to find his top form this season and if he's not in the plans for next season why are the Twins riding it out with him and this rough season he's having? People say "well Pelf's velocity is really coming back...."WHO CARES? The guy throws fastballs right down the middle of the plate about 50 times a game. Unless he's throwing over 100MPH his increased velocity means very little.

[PseudoSABR]

What does scholarship even mean? That someone has earned the right to have an entire year to make due? Or that someone has been given a pass in spite of their actual earningness of such a pass? I'm not sure I get it.

 

Taking Diamond out is foolish, if we consider this a developmental season (as opposed to the pejorative, 'rebuilding'). I'd look to TRADE Pelfry or Corriea before demoting anyone.

 

Gibson's time will come, while it might be frustrating, I sense that the Twins are trying to maximize the value of their veterans--the unfortunate byproduct is that they are playing better. Ugh.

[greengoblinrulz]

Pelfrey's not in the Twins plans for 2014 in any way, shape or form. They are holding onto him only to get as much usage of his $4m ...thats it.

I thought all of last year that Diamond was a mirage & this year just cements my belief. How long do you hold onto a guy who pitched well the year before??

[Badsmerf]

I'll give Diamond credit for being consistent, consistently bad. Diamond is 109 out 119 in ERA with over 60 IP and Pelfrey is 119 out of 119 in ERA with over 60 IP. At least Pelfrey is showing improvement though. His monthly ERA is dropping each month and he is pitching later into games. I'd rather see both Gibson and Albers at this point.

[goulik]

Twins Daily is great because most commentators making posts honestly look at the numbers and players and make fairly accurate portrayals. I have been seeing too many posts lacking that clarity in judgement in regard to Diamond and Gibson lately. Recognizing Diamond as our best pitcher last year only meant he was the best of a litany of back end rotation guys and that is all the hype he really got coming into the season. He earned a place because we just do not have a 1 or 2 pitcher and he was the best of the rest.

Now he clearly is not! We do need to recognize that it is always the big inning. He is not as abysmal as many performers on the mound we have endured recently! He looks like he has some of what he had last year for four of the five plus innings he gives us then something mental happens. So let's give the young guy a reboot at AAA fully expecting that he will right the ship and be our future 2014-15 4-5 hole rotation guy!

When Gibson does come up, I expect to see inconsistency. He will probably have a good game intermingled with bad games until he matures as an MLB pitcher. This is what I have seen him do with past promotions (am I remembering him wrong?) Better to do that in a year of lower expectations. It is the time.

So...Demote Diamond until we trade Pelfrey and/or Correia sometime in July, Promote Gibson until he runs out of innings (also July) and then look at Albers coming up with Diamond. Unless someone completely falls off the wagon, This seems to me to be the logical way to handle the rotation for now.

[Badsmerf]

Gibson has never been with the MLB. He has been elite for the past 2 months in AAA. I don't expect inconsistency at all. I expect a high 3 ERA with some great games. He actually has talent, and doesn't rely on smoke and mirrors. Albers might be more inconsistent, but would more than likely provide more than what Twins starters have shown so far.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Gibson has never been with the MLB. He has been elite for the past 2 months in AAA. I don't expect inconsistency at all. I expect a high 3 ERA with some great games. He actually has talent, and doesn't rely on smoke and mirrors. Albers might be more inconsistent, but would more than likely provide more than what Twins starters have shown so far.

 

I think a high 3s ERA is pretty optimistic. For his first 20-30 starts, I'd be happy with a low-to-mid 4s ERA, somewhere around league average.

[Mike Sixel]

I think a high 3s ERA is pretty optimistic. For his first 20-30 starts, I'd be happy with a low-to-mid 4s ERA, somewhere around league average.

 

 

Which is why those first few starts should be this year.......

[Brock Beauchamp]

Which is why those first few starts should be this year.......

 

You won't get any arguments from me.

[Badsmerf]

I think a high 3s ERA is pretty optimistic. For his first 20-30 starts, I'd be happy with a low-to-mid 4s ERA, somewhere around league average.

I'm basing this off what he is doing right now. MLB hitters should be able to square balls up better, but last night he had a 11-1 gb-fb ratio and 6 K's in 7 IP, not to mention 5 hits. Until teams adjust and get a good scouting report on him, I think he will surprise a lot of teams.

[Boom Boom]

What does scholarship even mean? That someone has earned the right to have an entire year to make due? Or that someone has been given a pass in spite of their actual earningness of such a pass? I'm not sure I get it.

 

It means the player who isn't performing keeps his spot because he is either a) on a decent sized contract, performed better some time in the past, or c) is a favorite of the manager. For more information, see Blackburn, Nick.

[Brock Beauchamp]

What does scholarship even mean? That someone has earned the right to have an entire year to make due? Or that someone has been given a pass in spite of their actual earningness of such a pass? I'm not sure I get it.

 

"Scholarship" means that the poster using it has just logged an entry on my **** list.

 

I'm sick to death of the word. It's a rallying cry to bash the front office for any wrong-doing, justified or not (and there's usually a massive helping of hyperbole and teeth-gnashing to go along with its use).

 

I'm on the verge of petitioning the other admins to censor the word entirely. I get mad every damned time I see it.

[ThePuck]

Which is why those first few starts should be this year.......

 

But if they wait till mid June next year, they'll gain another year of control. Why bother promoting him this year in a throw away year? Then next year we wait till he's past Super Two... :-)

[Mike Sixel]

Except Gardenhire used the term first, not us.......

 

"We're going to try to fit our team," Gardenhire said nearly a month ago. "We're away from the scholarships. No more scholarships because we don't have anybody else. You earn it, or you don't earn it. Scholarship program's out."

 

 

from Mackey on 1500.....

[diehardtwinsfan]

"Scholarship" means that the poster using it has just logged an entry on my **** list.

 

I'm sick to death of the word. It's a rallying cry to bash the front office for any wrong-doing, justified or not (and there's usually a massive helping of hyperbole and teeth-gnashing to go along with its use).

 

I'm on the verge of petitioning the other admins to censor the word entirely. I get mad every damned time I see it.

 

I know you can bring back the word filters.... do it. do it. do it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I know you can bring back the word filters.... do it. do it. do it.

 

This software doesn't support word filters, only censoring.

 

If word filters existed, scholarship would have been replaced.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Except Gardenhire used the term first, not us.......

 

"We're going to try to fit our team," Gardenhire said nearly a month ago. "We're away from the scholarships. No more scholarships because we don't have anybody else. You earn it, or you don't earn it. Scholarship program's out."

 

 

from Mackey on 1500.....

 

I realize Gardenhire used the word. That has little to do with the incessant trumpeting of it on these forums since that point, almost exclusively used in the negative.

 

If you want to argue the legitimacy of a player on the roster, feel free to do it. If you feel the need to accompany that argument with small-minded rhetoric and catch-phrases to repeatedly bang the same drum to the point of irritation, don't expect me to like it.

 

In short, argue smarter, not buzz-wordier.

[Celebrity Weddings!]

I realize Gardenhire used the word. That has little to do with the incessant trumpeting of it on these forums since that point, almost exclusively used in the negative.

 

Yeah. A throwaway line in spring training (and not even this most recent one, if I recall) has been treated a kind of weird oral contract between Gardenhire and us, the loyal fans, amongst folks who need to rope some conspiracy of disaster around the front office and field staff instead of just participating in normal "this player sucks" fan kvetching.

 

In Diamond's case, "scholarship" means that Gardenhire and Ryan have promised to keep the express lane to Rochester moving even for pre-arb pitchers who gave us 173 innings of 3.93 xFIP pitching last year. Why consider the possibility that Diamond will improve when there are people to be punished for our bad team in 2011?

[Boom Boom]

I realize Gardenhire used the word. That has little to do with the incessant trumpeting of it on these forums since that point, almost exclusively used in the negative.

 

If you want to argue the legitimacy of a player on the roster, feel free to do it. If you feel the need to accompany that argument with small-minded rhetoric and catch-phrases to repeatedly bang the same drum to the point of irritation, don't expect me to like it.

 

In short, argue smarter, not buzz-wordier.

 

Gardenhire himself used it in the negative. We're talking about professional athletes, not college kids, so the traditional definition of "scholarship" doesn't apply.

 

It's not just Gardenhire who used it, and it's not just the fans who repeat it. Google "Twins scholarships" and you'll get articles going back to spring training of 2012 from legitimate sports reporters.

[LoganJones]

Gibson has been good at AAA, nowhere approaching elite. He's striking out a fair number of hitters and getting a lot of ground balls. In the past two months, he's made 3 starts against teams with OPS over .740. One of those was the shutout against Lehigh Valley. The other two? Another vs Lehigh and one versus Durham. A total of 9 IP, 15 hits, 4 walks and 10 runs (9 strikeouts). He's done well against poor hitting lineups. When faced with better hitting lineups? He's gotten nocked around a bit. This doesn't bode well for his big league fortunes.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Gibson has been good at AAA, nowhere approaching elite. He's striking out a fair number of hitters and getting a lot of ground balls. In the past two months, he's made 3 starts against teams with OPS over .740. One of those was the shutout against Lehigh Valley. The other two? Another vs Lehigh and one versus Durham. A total of 9 IP, 15 hits, 4 walks and 10 runs (9 strikeouts). He's done well against poor hitting lineups. When faced with better hitting lineups? He's gotten nocked around a bit. This doesn't bode well for his big league fortunes.

This is pretty extreme cherry-picking. You identified 3 starts out of 9 that meet your criteria, you discarded Gibson's shutout from those 3, and determined that he fared poorly in the remaining two. And this means what, exactly?

 

Against the best team OPS in the league (Buffalo), Gibson has a total line this season of 11.2 IP, 6 H, 1 R, 2 BB, 11 SO. Is that two start sample more or less informative than your two start sample?

 

I don't think I'd call Gibson "elite" either, but frankly I don't think he is/was an "elite" type prospect so I don't think that's the right bar to use. I think he's always projected as a #2-3 type, more like Scott Baker. And his AAA rate stats right now are tracking pretty close to Baker's.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't think I'd call Gibson "elite" either, but frankly I don't think he is/was an "elite" type prospect so I don't think that's the right bar to use. I think he's always projected as a #2-3 type, more like Scott Baker. And his AAA rate stats right now are tracking pretty close to Baker's.

 

That's just it. Gibson is largely regarded to project as a good #3, decent #2 if the stars align for the guy.

 

If you're waiting for pure domination, you're not going to get it from the guy. So let's just put that dog to bed and start being reasonable with our expectations.

[LoganJones]

This is pretty extreme cherry-picking. You identified 3 starts out of 9 that meet your criteria, you discarded Gibson's shutout from those 3, and determined that he fared poorly in the remaining two. And this means what, exactly?

 

Against the best team OPS in the league (Buffalo), Gibson has a total line this season of 11.2 IP, 6 H, 1 R, 2 BB, 11 SO. Is that two start sample more or less informative than your two start sample?

 

I don't think I'd call Gibson "elite" either, but frankly I don't think he is/was an "elite" type prospect so I don't think that's the right bar to use. I think he's always projected as a #2-3 type, more like Scott Baker. And his AAA rate stats right now are tracking pretty close to Baker's.

 

It's not cherry picking at all. It's pointing out that his consistency is closely tied to the quality of his opposition. When he's struggled, it's generally been at the hands of better hitting. When he gets here, he's going to face lineups that would have ops in the .790-.850 range at AAA. Until he can have more consistent results, irrespective of his opposition, there's no point in bringing him up here to get shelled.

[LoganJones]

That's just it. Gibson is largely regarded to project as a good #3, decent #2 if the stars align for the guy.

 

If you're waiting for pure domination, you're not going to get it from the guy. So let's just put that dog to bed and start being reasonable with our expectations.

 

Then there's no point in bringing him up this year. He won't provide any value, and will burn a year of service time sitting on the bench (since they're going to shut him down at 160). A 2-3 starter is valuable at his pay rate, if he makes 30 starts. Not if he makes 7.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Then there's no point in bringing him up this year. He won't provide any value, and will burn a year of service time sitting on the bench (since they're going to shut him down at 160). A 2-3 starter is valuable at his pay rate, if he makes 30 starts. Not if he makes 7.

 

He doesn't burn a year of anything. We're well past the cutoff for adding a year of service time. Hell, we're past the Super 2 deadline. There is no service time or financial argument to be made at this point.

 

And why won't 5-7 MLB starts provide any value? Gibson can use the experience and the rotation has been mostly awful again this year.

 

Get the kid prepared for 2014 and that's one less free agent the team has to sign in the offseason.