What is the Twins strategy this season?

[drjim]

To bad there wasnt a Shields to trade for or a Santana or maybe a free agent like Sanchez this year. But next year they will have more money from there TV contract so ...um so um so they will have extra money? hmmm isint 52% of 213 million ,like 30 million more then we spent this year? oh yeah , they dont care, just hire another brinks truck and forget about a front of a rotation pitcher

 

You think money is the reason Terry Ryan didn't trade for Shields?

[jokin]

I appreciate that you are willing to call out Ryan if he fails to perform as expected but next year's free agent pitching class looks pretty sketchy. There are some big names but they all seem to have fallen off a cliff production-wise.

 

 

The poster in question said the exact same thing last December before the "big acquisition of a pretty good pitcher who is better than his numbers indicate."

[jokin]

They are behind the curve at this point because they started the rebuild a year and a half later than they should have.

 

The loyalists are rather prone at missing the obvious. I never cease to be amazed at the willingness of so many of the "faithful" for their tacit acceptance of decade-long stretches of wallowings in ineptitude or mediocrity.

[jokin]

You think money is the reason Terry Ryan didn't trade for Shields?

 

Probably more like weak pools and bad luck.

 

But seriously, they certainly had plenty of outfield prospects at least somewhat comparable to Myers to trade to the Rays to get him. The real question is what were the Twins willing to pay Shields to extend his contract beyond 2014- signing him out to age 36- or through 2018, this would have put a legit ace in the front of the rotation right as the next wave is ready to take off.

[drjim]

Probably more like weak pools and bad luck.

 

But seriously, they certainly had plenty of outfield prospects at least somewhat comparable to Myers to trade to the Rays to get him. The real question is what were the Twins willing to pay Shields to extend his contract beyond 2014- signing him out to age 36- or through 2018, this would have put an legit ace in the front of the rotation right as the next wave is ready to take off.

 

Last offseason they didn't have one comparable to Myers, much less plenty.

[drjim]

The loyalists are rather prone at missing the obvious. I never cease to be amazed at the willingness of so many of the "faithful" for their tacit acceptance of decade-long stretches of wallowings in ineptitude or mediocrity.

 

Who is talking about "decade-long stretches"? No one would accept that.

[Thrylos]

Agree. The question is, just how high is that trade value and is it worth keeping Doumit on the roster as the backup catcher if he's going to constantly take at bats away from Parmelee. This is one area where Ryan can certainly dictate how Gardy fills out his everyday lineup. We definitely seem to have a backup Doumit waiting in the wings in Herrmann.

 

Problem with this thought is that when Butera gets healthy, the ones who run the team have him higher in the depth chart than Herrmann... Not that I disagree: Herrmann could potentially replace Doumit (with a better glove and less power) but Butera is it for Terry and Gardy.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

To bad there wasnt a Shields to trade for or a Santana or maybe a free agent like Sanchez this year. But next year they will have more money from there TV contract so ...um so um so they will have extra money? hmmm isint 52% of 213 million ,like 30 million more then we spent this year? oh yeah , they dont care, just hire another brinks truck and forget about a front of a rotation pitcher

 

Trade for Shields? Did you not see what the Rays got in return?! The #4 Prospect in baseball. To get Shields we would have had to trade 1 of Buxton or Sano at LEAST. James Shields is 31 and his deal is dead in 2014.

[Guest USAFChief]

We can argue what Ryan or Gardy's strategy is for 2013, or what it should be.

 

But the TWINS strategy? Same as always...a guaranteed profit at the end of the season, above all else, including winning.

[jokin]

Who is talking about "decade-long stretches"? No one would accept that.

 

Except folks on your side have done so in the recent past... in the 90s, in the 80s, in the 70s....

 

It was supposed to have been different with the new stadium.... but it isn't.

 

"Patience", "accpetance", willingness to wallow and be lied to by management and ownership.... all the signs are still out there....

[jokin]

We can argue what Ryan or Gardy's strategy is for 2013, or what it should be.

 

But the TWINS strategy? Same as always...a guaranteed profit at the end of the season, above all else, including winning.

 

Yup.

 

And largely because of how well they read and predict the predilections of their customer base.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Except folks on your side have done so in the recent past... in the 90s, in the 80s, in the 70s....

 

It was supposed to have been different with the new stadium.... but it isn't.

 

"Patience", "accpetance", willingness to wallow and be lied to by management and ownership.... all the signs are still out there....

 

OK, I don't mind pessimism, but this is a bit over the top, in my opinion. When did this become about "sides"? Does it have to be optimism vs pessimism? And accusing the organization of lying and fans of being willing to wallow does not promote respectful debate; it does the opposite.

[jokin]

Last offseason they didn't have one comparable to Myers, much less plenty.

 

You're right, the Twins have better prospects and "more", if you prefer that to plenty.

 

And there were other pieces involved in that Shields trade, you can't make it just Myers for Shields. Lining up Shields as the backbone to your staff out to 2018 was a deal that you have to try to get done, if at all possible.

[jokin]

OK, I don't mind pessimism, but this is a bit over the top, in my opinion. When did this become about "sides"? Does it have to be optimism vs pessimism? And accusing the organization of lying and fans of being willing to wallow does not promote helpful debate; it does the opposite.

 

"Over the top", really? How so?

 

I'm not "accusing" the organization of lying to fans. It's simply a fact, I can go over it case by case, if you're so inclined.

 

As far as willingness to wallow, if the mudhole fits, be willing to lie in it.

 

As far as promoting helpful debate, I'm trying to help by making a strong point and hopefully waking the opposite side from its lethargy and then finally they can remove the "Kick Me" sign from their collective backsides.

[drjim]

You're right, the Twins have better prospects and "more", if you prefer that to plenty.

 

And there were other pieces involved in that Shields trade, you can't make it just Myers for Shields. Lining up Shields as the backbone to your staff out to 2018 was a deal that you have to try to get done, if at all possible.

 

This is flat out not true. Last offseason Myers was a top three prospect and Sano and Buxton were not at that level (primarily because of distance from the majors). The Twins didn't have the arms either at the time of the trade.

[drjim]

Except folks on your side have done so in the recent past... in the 90s, in the 80s, in the 70s....

 

It was supposed to have been different with the new stadium.... but it isn't.

 

"Patience", "accpetance", willingness to wallow and be lied to by management and ownership.... all the signs are still out there....

 

I don't mind being opposed to your constant misery but this isn't about "sides". I think we all want the Twins to win, but we have some different opinions on how to get there.

 

And I do hold the team accountable. Even though I generally agree with their plan and have confidence in Terry Ryan, I spend much less on the product than I would if they were a better team. That hurts much more than all the comments on message boards combined.

[Aaron Cross]

They are behind the curve at this point

because they started the rebuild a year and a half later than they should have.

Has the rebuild even started yet? Does Ryan even understand the meaning of rebuilding? Why is morneau still on this team? Apologies to Ryan if he does the right thing and purges this roster by July 31, but I dont see it happening. The post July 31 lineup SHOULD be:

 

1. CF Hicks

2. 1B Mauer

3. LF Arcia

4. 3B Plouffe

5. DH Parmelee

6. C Pinto

7. RF Benson (I'm still floored)

8. 2B Dozier

9. SS Florimon

[johnnydakota]

Really? I mean really?

 

Yes, I mean yes really...

[howieramone1406390264]

Has the rebuild even started yet? Does Ryan even understand the meaning of rebuilding? Why is morneau still on this team? Apologies to Ryan if he does the right thing and purges this roster by July 31, but I dont see it happening. The post July 31 lineup SHOULD be:

 

1. CF Hicks

2. 1B Mauer

3. LF Arcia

4. 3B Plouffe

5. DH Parmelee

6. C Pinto

7. RF Benson (I'm still floored)

8. 2B Dozier

9. SS Florimon

No, that's why we have posters. Should we see if we can get the Benson thread reopened?

[johnnydakota]

You think money is the reason Terry Ryan didn't trade for Shields?

 

I think Ryan is scared of his shadow , when it comes to trades....he made 1 lucky trade and hasnt ever lived up to it since, money , yes Shields is earning 12 million or 12.5 this year.To some one like Terry , he feels like that should be the budget for the entire pitching staff, not just 1 pitcher, maybe he should try his hand at the independant leaques with budgets under 1 million a year,since his only attribute is dumpster diving

[JB_Iowa]

I don't mind being opposed to your constant misery but this isn't about "sides". I think we all want the Twins to win, but we have some different opinions on how to get there.

 

And I do hold the team accountable. Even though I generally agree with their plan and have confidence in Terry Ryan, I spend much less on the product than I would if they were a better team. That hurts much more than all the comments on message boards combined.

 

I think my personal problem is that I no longer believe the Twins ownership and GM truly care about winning a championship -- and I'm not sure I can pinpoint when they last did care while under a Terry Ryan regime. Ironically, I think Bill Smith and Co. may have thought they could "win it all" (or at least win something beyond the Central Division) and that may be why he pushed the payroll so high and did things like trading for Matt Capps -- unfortunately, Smith wasn't very good at his job and also had some bad luck on the injury front.

 

I understand that for most teams in ML ball, winning a championship is a rare and beautiful thing. There are, after all, 30 major league teams so even if championships were distributed evenly, a team would "win it all" only once in 30 years.

 

But the odds are better for a league championship (or at least for playing in a league championship). I have no doubt that Twins management wants to get back to a level of success where they are putting b*tts in the seats, competing for a division title and raking in profits. But I have absolutely no faith that TR is willing to take the risks necessary to go beyond that level and actually compete for a league championship or WS victory. Will he be willing to spend the extra money to acquire a key free agent or two or to trade away prospects to acquire those missing pieces?

 

There is just nothing in his past record to convince me that he would be willing to do so. And that's why I continue to be depressed about the Twins strategy (or lack thereof). I know that it is actually somewhat premature for any of those moves but I want some glimmer of hope that it would happen -- and a significant budget cut and unwillingness to take a few risks on some shorter term free agents in the hopes of putting a more palatable team on the field NOW -- just don't give me that hope.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think Ryan is scared of his shadow , when it comes to trades....he made 1 lucky trade and hasnt ever lived up to it since, money , yes Shields is earning 12 million or 12.5 this year.

 

Terry Ryan hasn't traded a player of significance and hurt the team since the year started with "19". His track record in trades is very, very good.

 

But hey, let's not look at the actual results. You're right, the dude is just the "luckiest" mofo on the planet.

[johnnydakota]

Trade for Shields? Did you not see what the Rays got in return?! The #4 Prospect in baseball. To get Shields we would have had to trade 1 of Buxton or Sano at LEAST. James Shields is 31 and his deal is dead in 2014.[/QUOOr maybe a non prospect like Span , and then some prospects like Gibson , Harrison and maybe Levi.....Yes i know you all seem to think 5 years of service from Gibson is worth more then 2 years of Shields, but I dont....Gibson a 2 times sore armed pitcher ,who has never seen a mlb game , who will most likely take a couple years at the mlb level to get his head on straight, And will he be an Ace? Probally closer to a #3 type starter.So in reality your getting no growing pains and at least 2 years of a legitiment Ace over 3 years of a #3 starter....

[Riverbrian]

I'm 100 Percent sure that Terry Ryan has made some mistakes and I'm 100 percent sure that some things didn't go as planned. I'm also pretty sure that mistakes are part of the job... Just like they are part of my job.

 

I'm also 100 percent sure that I don't know exactly what those Twins mistakes are.

 

I'm just gonna watch the games and hope that 2013 players identify themselves to management as 2014 players.

 

If enough guys look like 2014 players. 2013 will take care of itself.

[ThePuck]

I think my personal problem is that I no longer believe the Twins ownership and GM truly care about winning a championship -- and I'm not sure I can pinpoint when they last did care while under a Terry Ryan regime. Ironically, I think Bill Smith and Co. may have thought they could "win it all" (or at least win something beyond the Central Division) and that may be why he pushed the payroll so high and did things like trading for Matt Capps -- unfortunately, Smith wasn't very good at his job and also had some bad luck on the injury front.

 

I understand that for most teams in ML ball, winning a championship is a rare and beautiful thing. There are, after all, 30 major league teams so even if championships were distributed evenly, a team would "win it all" only once in 30 years.

 

But the odds are better for a league championship (or at least for playing in a league championship). I have no doubt that Twins management wants to get back to a level of success where they are putting b*tts in the seats, competing for a division title and raking in profits. But I have absolutely no faith that TR is willing to take the risks necessary to go beyond that level and actually compete for a league championship or WS victory. Will he be willing to spend the extra money to acquire a key free agent or two or to trade away prospects to acquire those missing pieces?

 

There is just nothing in his past record to convince me that he would be willing to do so. And that's why I continue to be depressed about the Twins strategy (or lack thereof). I know that it is actually somewhat premature for any of those moves but I want some glimmer of hope that it would happen -- and a significant budget cut and unwillingness to take a few risks on some shorter term free agents in the hopes of putting a more palatable team on the field NOW -- just don't give me that hope.

 

Nice post! For me, the offseason after the 2006 season was when I personally felt ownership and the FO were only worried about building a team just good enough to be division contender in order to maximize profits. We had a very good team but we needed some final pieces, and the team did nothing but bargain shop in the offseason. The offseason after the 2010 season, we saw the same thing. Instead of getting some needed pieces, like some pitching, they gutted their bullpen and the starting middle infield was gone. It's like they said, 'yeah, we won the division with a good margin, we can afford to downgrade in some spots and still be competitive.'

[johnnydakota]

OK, I don't mind pessimism, but this is a bit over the top, in my opinion. When did this become about "sides"? Does it have to be optimism vs pessimism? And accusing the organization of lying and fans of being willing to wallow does not promote respectful debate; it does the opposite.

 

Sorry my friend , but ownership and the Twins front office flat out lied...They hoodwinked the state to pony up 350 million so ownership could garner larger profits,increase the value of there team.Then did not live up to there end of the agreement.They allowed 3 players to walk via free agency after make discount offers to them,then failed in bringing in quality starters ,both in pitching and fielding. Now in a rebuilding season ,managerment is struggling to keep there jobs,rather then in rebuilding...They are playing aging veterans,in hopes of winning a couple more games then last year. And what did we get from 2 more victorys in 2012 over 2011? We lost out on a near ready starter in gray, and had to settle for a loner shot ,in 18 year old diabetic , just so Ryan could say ,hey we are improving...

[Riverbrian]

Trade for Shields? Did you not see what the Rays got in return?! The #4 Prospect in baseball. To get Shields we would have had to trade 1 of Buxton or Sano at LEAST. James Shields is 31 and his deal is dead in 2014.[/QUOOr maybe a non prospect like Span , and then some prospects like Gibson , Harrison and maybe Levi.....Yes i know you all seem to think 5 years of service from Gibson is worth more then 2 years of Shields, but I dont....Gibson a 2 times sore armed pitcher ,who has never seen a mlb game , who will most likely take a couple years at the mlb level to get his head on straight, And will he be an Ace? Probally closer to a #3 type starter.So in reality your getting no growing pains and at least 2 years of a legitiment Ace over 3 years of a #3 starter....

 

Did you call Andrew Friedman to determine if he would accept the deal of Span, Gibson, Harrison and Michaels for James Shields?

 

We know that Friedman liked Myers, Odorizzi and Montogmery from the Royals.

 

Its easy to say the Twins should have traded so in so for so in so... But it takes two teams to agree to a deal because they have that freewill thing like everyone else.

[johnnydakota]

Has the rebuild even started yet? Does Ryan even understand the meaning of rebuilding? Why is morneau still on this team? Apologies to Ryan if he does the right thing and purges this roster by July 31, but I dont see it happening. The post July 31 lineup SHOULD be:

 

1. CF Hicks

2. 1B Mauer

3. LF Arcia

4. 3B Plouffe

5. DH Parmelee

6. C Pinto

7. RF Benson (I'm still floored)

8. 2B Dozier

9. SS Florimon

 

Add in a few more like Romero,Beresford and Colabelo ,with september callups to boot

[johnnydakota]

 

Did you call Andrew Friedman to determine if he would accept the deal of Span, Gibson, Harrison and Michaels for James Shields?

 

We know that Friedman liked Myers, Odorizzi and Montogmery from the Royals.

 

Its easy to say the Twins should have traded so in so for so in so... But it takes two teams to agree to a deal because they have that freewill thing like everyone else.

 

ok maybe we needed to add another ,prospect, but remember K.C. got more then just Shields

[Brock Beauchamp]

Or maybe a non prospect like Span , and then some prospects like Gibson , Harrison and maybe Levi.....Yes i know you all seem to think 5 years of service from Gibson is worth more then 2 years of Shields, but I dont....Gibson a 2 times sore armed pitcher ,who has never seen a mlb game , who will most likely take a couple years at the mlb level to get his head on straight, And will he be an Ace? Probally closer to a #3 type starter.So in reality your getting no growing pains and at least 2 years of a legitiment Ace over 3 years of a #3 starter....

 

Hmm. The Rays take the #4 prospect in baseball or a decent CF and a guy coming off TJ surgery.

 

Which would you choose?

 

Trade speculation is completely pointless anyway but it's particularly pointless if you're not going to come up with a package that actually beats the offer the team received and took from another team.

 

And how does trading Span and Gibson for Shields make this team better? You've lost good production in CF, future production in the rotation, and gained a very good pitcher in return. That's not much better than a wash and could be an actual performance decline as soon as next season.

 

On the other hand, the Twins currently have Gibson and Meyer in trade for Span, which does make them a significantly better team moving forward.

 

But that doesn't fit in with the cheap money-miser theory so it doesn't count.