Article: Twins' broadcaster Dick Bremer discusses advanced stats in the booth

[Mike Sixel]

That's my point, that there shouldn't be some sort of hierarchy of fandom. And just because some like that doesn't make them more intelligent of more of a fan.

 

 

Just like always, we agree......there really is no right or wrong way to be a fan, this is just silly entertainment anyway.

[Oxtung]

Just another thought. For most of these stats it isn't really important to know how they are calculated. The math behind them isn't the important part. It's knowing what they mean in comparison to other players that is important.

 

For instance using WAR as an example, it doesn't matter what it's component parts are, what matters and what you would mention to your viewers is something like this, "WAR is a stat that attempts to measure a players all around game. It takes into account a players hitting skills, base running skills and defensive abilities. The higher the number the better that player has been."

 

Now who wouldn't understand that? That is about as simple as it gets. Higher is better.

[JB_Iowa]

 

Now who wouldn't understand that? That is about as simple as it gets.

 

I think that is exactly what Parker was saying Len Kasper does in his example somewhere up above. Kasper is not spewing statistics. He is taking statistical information and applying it to the situation and making it possible for the average viewer to understand -- not to feel overwhelmed by numbers and stats but to add a richness to the viewer's understanding of the GAME.

[Winston Smith]

I first recall baseball at the "major league level" from a saturday afternoon TV game in the early 50's when Enos Slaughter caught a ball in Yankees stadium that took a home run away. For a 5 or 6 yr old that was a really big deal that I have saved in my mind all these years while most other things have been lost.

I didn't need advanced stats to enjoy the game, play the game or understand the game.

I think it's a little arrogant to think it takes spending hours with or having a deep understanding of "advanced stats" to really understand the game.

I am perfectly happy watching the games with the sound off like I was sitting in the bleachers at the old Met or at a town team game enjoying or not enjoying the game as the play unfolds.

I kind of feel sorry for the people that can't enjoy the game for what it is without xyz this or abc that. But I'm old so nevermind!

[JB_Iowa]

Winston Smith, it would be fabulous if they offered a feed of the game that didn't have any broadcast announcers. Just air what is said over the PA system and let viewers hear the ambient sounds of the game.

 

They ought to do that for a game or two each year. (Although I'd like it more often).

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Why is it that everyone just goes straight to WAR? I'm not sure why Bremer thought only of WAR when I asked about advanced stats. Is it because it is perceived as the most advanced stat? Or just because it is the hot button stat thanks to the Trout/Cabrera debate?

 

Because of the WAR we're having with this topic.

[Craig Arko]

Winston Smith, it would be fabulous if they offered a feed of the game that didn't have any broadcast announcers. Just air what is said over the PA system and let viewers hear the ambient sounds of the game.

 

They ought to do that for a game or two each year. (Although I'd like it more often).

 

That would be cool beyond belief. Almost like reality, and one can interpret the play by themselves without having everything 'splained to the point of lobotemizing.

[Boom Boom]

Winston Smith, it would be fabulous if they offered a feed of the game that didn't have any broadcast announcers. Just air what is said over the PA system and let viewers hear the ambient sounds of the game.

 

They ought to do that for a game or two each year. (Although I'd like it more often).

 

Blyleven would be all for that if the game was played in Detroit.

[JB_Iowa]

Blyleven would be all for that if the game was played in Detroit.

 

And Bremer would love it if it was in New York.

[zenser]

This is a very good article and Dick did a great job with his answers.

I feel that I am a big baseball fan and I don't generally care for the advanced stats. I do most of them and what/how they are used. I generally don't care for them though and I am even a math guy. I do realize that these can be useful tools. However, I do know that those stats are only tools to show past events. Just because a guy has a tremendous slash line or his WAR is 2.0, that doesn't mean anything in the bottom of the 8th in a tie game. That is why it is a great game. If you want to dig into numbers and use the advanced stats, you can. If you are a person that likes the visual stats, by all means, use them. I would have to say I am with Winston and really don't care about stats at all, I would just rather sit down, crack a cold one, and enjoy.

[Jack Torse]

There seems to be a difference between "advanced stats" and "saber" stats. Not sure there is a clear definition between the two because many people who like them or reject them lump them together. Saber is almost completely mathematical, theory and subjective (ie. zone ratings) where advanced stats(pitch fx) is completely scientific. Am I right or am I missing something?

[Oxtung]

There seems to be a difference between "advanced stats" and "saber" stats. Not sure there is a clear definition between the two because many people who like them or reject them lump them together. Saber is almost completely mathematical, theory and subjective (ie. zone ratings) where advanced stats(pitch fx) is completely scientific. Am I right or am I missing something?

 

This is a pet peeve of mine so forgive my little mini-rant here. "Science" and "scientific" have specific meanings. Most things mathematical are not scientific. Science is defined by the Scientific Method which is a specific process to answer a specific question through carefully controlled experiments to obtain reproducible results. The original question is compared to these results and is either accepted, discarded or adapted. This leads to new questions and then new results.

 

I know people don't mean anything negative when they say "science" out of context, in fact it is often the opposite, but this dilutes the word and leads to confusion. Sorry for the long rant!

 

/rant

[Thrylos]

Chicken or egg situation:

 

Unless broadcasts incorporate more modern statistic measures, the "casual" fans will not get familiar with them and they will be foreign to them.

 

I have issue with DickNBert using crappy measures (like "quality starts", "batting average", "RBI", "holds", "ERA", "runners stranded") and treating them like gospel. I suspect that part of the lack of usage of advanced measures by DickNBert is their unfamiliarity with them, thus the sour grapes...

 

I do not understand how a pitcher's velocity drop during a game or release point inconsistency (both "advanced measures") are "difficult to grasp by the average fan". Pretty easy notations for everyone methinks.

[Oxtung]

To those people who dislike advanced stats do you think a few advanced stats interspersed throughout a broadcast would sour or even ruin your viewing experience? I'm just trying to gauge how big a deal this is.

[Thrylos]

There seems to be a difference between "advanced stats" and "saber" stats. Not sure there is a clear definition between the two because many people who like them or reject them lump them together. Saber is almost completely mathematical, theory and subjective (ie. zone ratings) where advanced stats(pitch fx) is completely scientific. Am I right or am I missing something?

 

You are missing something.

 

Society for American Baseball Research

SABR aka "Saber"

In addition to having members who create and evangelize a whole bunch of analytic measures aka "advanced metrics", they have members who do a ton of old fashion research on things like the origins of the game, obscure historic feats, obscure independent teams of lore and all topics baseball.

[Jim H]

Like many who like baseball, I like and appreciate stats. I also have problems with many of the so-called advanced stats. WAR isn't really a stat, but more a tool using stats that may let you compare players. The idea that higher WAR means that one player is better than another, is akin to saying that a player with a higher BA is better than another. There is so much left out in both situations that it renders a statement like that meaningless. Leaving advanced stats out of broadcasts is probably the right move because the people who will be using those stats don't really understand them. They can't give context, really explain them, or use them in a way that iluminates the real differences between certain players.

[Guest USAFChief]

I agree with Seth in that I'd like to see them post the slash line: BA/OBP/SLG for hitters. IMO that tells you a lot about a hitter, more than just BA, or the traditional BA/HR/RBI. If they want to leave HR/RBI in there, that's fine with me too.

 

For pitchers I'm fine with what they usually show now. I think it gives you a pretty good idea of what a pitcher has accomplished to date.

 

Beyond that, I wouldn't care if they added more, but personally I would ignore most of it anyway. WAR is theoretical at best, junk at worst, xFIP and the like doesn't tell me what a pitcher has accomplished. If those things add to your experience watching a broadcast, great, but they wouldn't for me, and if I want to know that information I know where to find it.

[Thrylos]

Like many who like baseball, I like and appreciate stats. I also have problems with many of the so-called advanced stats. WAR isn't really a stat, but more a tool using stats that may let you compare players. The idea that higher WAR means that one player is better than another, is akin to saying that a player with a higher BA is better than another. There is so much left out in both situations that it renders a statement like that meaningless. Leaving advanced stats out of broadcasts is probably the right move because the people who will be using those stats don't really understand them. They can't give context, really explain them, or use them in a way that iluminates the real differences between certain players.

 

Yeah. And it is because there are apples and oranges and people (like what you are doing up there) try to compare them.

 

Big big picture: There are a couple types of "stats": Rate stats (things that usually divide by something - think PAs, IP etc) like BA, OBP, ERA, WHIP and cumulative stats (things that add, like RBIs, R, K, etc.). Batting average (like mph in your car) is a rate stat. WAR (like total miles in a trip or what the odometer of your car shows) is a cumulative stat. They both have their uses but you cannot compare them against each other. WAR is awesome for figuring things like belonging into the hall of fame after a long career but sucks for week to week comparisons. It is all about context and appropriate use. (and doing a bit of homework...)

[Kobs]

I would be very happy if they threw out the few numbers that don't give you usable information, namely RBI, W/L, Saves, and Holds. For hitters, a simple slash line with HR and possibly steals/attempts would be of interest. For pitchers, GS, ERA, IP, WHIP, something giving strikeouts and walks (ideally PA/K & PA/BB).

 

Things like WAR & xFIP, these are opinions, and I don't see any reason to present opinion as fact on the broadcast.

[greengoblinrulz]

WAR is often used as the stat for sabermetrics.....it doesnt have to be the one used on TV to show advanced metrics.

Agree with Seth that BAve/OBP/SLgg is where it starts. This is the easiest for fans to digest & compare to others.

Never understood why those numbers arent shown also against LHP/RHP. With all the pitching changes, everyone knows its for matchups but FSN never shows the breakdowns. Something that pertains to the situation is a start.

Easy one also is SB allowed by P & C separately or when together. Simple.

 

Untill you get Bert to stop using errors as the end all for defensive numbers or wins for a starting pitcher, FSN is not gonna use them as they scare their own ex-players.

 

Gotta be forced upon em by a higher up at the network but we know that FSN/Twins just want yes men on the air.

[clutterheart]

I don't care what stats Dick & Bert throw out there. Why should baseball games be a "school" session? Batting Ave, & HR totals are fine stats to give a general indication of a player's performance YTD.

 

Most fans turn the game on and do something else while watching. So its not so important that they go into the intricacies of UZR to show us that the OF Gardy is forced to throw out there is slow and allows a lot of balls to land in the gap.

[Oxtung]

I don't care what stats Dick & Bert throw out there. Why should baseball games be a "school" session? Batting Ave, & HR totals are fine stats to give a general indication of a player's performance YTD.

 

Most fans turn the game on and do something else while watching. So its not so important that they go into the intricacies of UZR to show us that the OF Gardy is forced to throw out there is slow and allows a lot of balls to land in the gap.

 

If most fans are doing something else and therefore it doesn't matter if they only show BA & HR's then why doesn't that logic also apply to more advanced metrics? What's good for the goose....

[Boom Boom]

I don't think that even the most Bill Jamesiest stat-heads out there really want to listen to Dick and Bert try to educate us about xFIP and WAR. But I also don't think that referencing the stat will convince any traditionalists to change the channel. What are they going to change it to?

[Mike Sixel]

I actually like the concept of quality starts.....I have issues with the thought that starts are not independent events.....which is what most stats assume.

[greengoblinrulz]

Just hate their Twitter polls. Dick says they dont give advanced stats as fans dont know what they are, but I guess all the 40+ yr old people are too busy 'tweeting' to understand.

Bert showed last nite how clueless he is on advanced pitching stats as he listed his top 5 pitchers in the game today & just listed the guys with the 5 most wins.