Article: Twins Center Field Depth Is Tested

[stringer bell]

I don't know who posted about Hicks and arbitration, but the issue isn't arbitration, it is free agency. If Hicks spends three weeks in the minors (other than injury rehab), the Twins delay his free agency by a year. I think it is far ore important to have control over Hicks for an additional year than whether Hicks is eligible for an additional year of arbitration.

[johnnydakota]

People who insist that there are other ways to measure success besides actually achieving, you know, "success" frustrate me.

 

So there are no intermediate steps, just pain followed by the 1991 WS? That's not how things work. The Dodgers are trying to win that way this year and it usually fails.

 

Mastro and Ramirez were the insurance, not regulars. You keep complaining about lack of insurance and backups and "every-day alternatives" and then waving away the existence of the Twins backup CFs. I'm not sure what you want to hear. I'm sure Terry Ryan is sorry Benson sucked and Hicks got hurt at the same time Mastro got hurt at the same time Ramierez got hurt. What are you hoping for, a fourth CF on the roster? This is a team feeling its way back to contention and they're going to churn through some bodies. At times the roster is going to look a little rough but they'll make a few short term shortcuts to stay focused on the future. Three wins mean nothing this year compared to keeping as many youngsters in the organization as possible while trying to figure out who can play. You really think they should have tried to pass good players thru waivers to keep Borbon on the 40 man this spring? Really?

 

Mastroianni got gurt during spring training , and if we are going to have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster why cant we have 10 outfielders?

[snepp]

Let's address the content rather than commenters.

 

 

Thanks.

[Oxtung]

I'm not interested in arguing this because it has been hashed out before and probably will be again but I will state my opinion then walk away.

 

I think the Twins did Hicks, themselves and their fans a disservice by forcing Hicks into the starting lineup. By not finding a veteran to fill the opening the only alternative was to let Hicks play. Wasn't going to be Benson, he had hardly played in a year and even then he was terrible. Mastro would have required a new 4th OF to be found because it sure wasn't going to be Hicks or Benson sitting on the bench behind him. That leaves only Hicks.

 

Forcing Hicks into the role was a bad idea for all the reasons already stated, slow starter, jumped two levels, no time at AAA, arbitration/control reasons and a lot of pressure for a young guy with no experience.

 

There was plenty of money and it was obvious CF was going to be a problem to begin the year. I'm disappointed that nothing was done about it.

[Bob Christie]

I think we need Cuddy back ??!!!

[Oldgoat_MN]

...

 

"Feeling your way back to contention" after 2 disastrous years, and still carrying high dollar players on the payroll like Mauer, Morneau, Willingham and Perkins makes utterly no sense whatsoever.

 

Jokin - I expect you to be opinionated and sometimes a bit harsh, but usually you have well thought-out posts.

 

Perkins and Willingham are high dollar?

 

Hey my brother, you're better than this.

 

I look forward to your next post.

[Shane Wahl]

We can honestly **** talk Joe Benson all we want, but I would rather chance him than deal with this Clete Thomas nonsense. I have said this elsewhere, but I guarantee that Benson would have been better than Hicks in April and early May while Hicks got the appropriate AAA time to warm up to the big leagues. Benson should have been promoted to AAA in late July of 2011, but that near .900 OPS wasn't good enough, apparently, to the experts. The Twins have been bad for Revere, Benson, and Parmelee with rushed September call-ups and an infatuation with ST stats. Oh, and and Hicks.

 

Promote when they start to excel, don't repeat when unneeded, and do NOT skip a level. That is what I would do.

[jokin]

Jokin - I expect you to be opinionated and sometimes a bit harsh, but usually you have well thought-out posts.

 

Perkins and Willingham are high dollar?

 

Hey my brother, you're better than this.

 

I look forward to your next post.

 

Thanks OG, for a challenging and thought-provoking post in response.

 

OK here goes. I stand by all four players as unnecessary high dollar assets (but understand why they can't move Mauer).

 

Here's why:

 

For the Twins in a year they are throwing away, Perk and Willingham are high dollar most certainly. Especially Willingham, why is he here at 3yr/$7M/yr when he most certainly isn't part of future plans when the Twins FO finally decides to be competitive again? He is 34 coming off of likely his career-best year. Again, since the Twins had no intention of competing, why is he still here when he should have been offered at his potentially highest value during his 3 year contract with the Twins this last offseason? That $14M over this year and next and is better spent dedicated to locking up high-quality starting pitching for the next run- or in kick-starting that next run a year or two sooner.

 

Perkins is a cheaper than average closer to be sure, but the Twins committed up to 5 years to Perkins- up to the 2016 option year of his contract. They did this with evidently little intention of being legitimately competitive again until 2016. We all know this is a team that promised the fans to totally focus on upgrading the starting pitching and then went all out and paid their 2 new FA "aces" annual salaries of $4.5M and $4.0 million- these are dumpster dive rates in this era for decent SP, compared to Perkins $2.5M- when these are your alleged aces, the chances on cashing in with save opportunities for a closer above minimum wage makes each save that much more expensive. The logical thing for a truly rebuilding team is to employ a free-for-all minimum wage closer by committee and let the cream rise to the top.

 

The final potential year of Perkins contract will be when Perkins is 33 years old- so it is a little bit of a crapshoot that he will still be as effective as he is now. Since the Twins have decided to not be "all in" until then, they really have no need for a closer making any kind of decent money before then, so that's essentially a waste of the $11.85M portion of Perk's contract in the interim- and then finally with Perkins scheduled to make $4.5M in the 2016 team option year- when he may, or may not, still be effective.

 

The best argument to be made is the one I have intended on writing up soon, signing Perkins to a relatively cheap long-term deal to make him available as an inexpensive closing option for a good team in strong need, or a marginally competing team, that wants to make a 2-3 month run to October without breaking the budget. Tampa Bay, Baltimore, Atlanta and St Louis come to mind- they all have overall relief pitcher numbers in the bottom half of baseball, and they all 4 have mostly sub-par to ordinary lefty bullpen options and/or faltering closers (Tampa Bay and Baltimore). Those 4 teams have enticing prospects for the Twins to try to acquire, but all four clubs are probably too shrewd to make a deal favorable enough to the Twins for Perkins. And it's not clear if the Twins have any intentions to look in this direction- but pitching is always the hottest commodity at the deadline and Perk's value will likely never be higher- he is sitting at or well-above career highs in virtually every statistical category.

[howieramone1406390264]

Hindsight is so much better than foresight. In fact, that may be a good way to divide up this board. Those with hindsight post on even days, those with foresight on odd? Just a thought.

[Riverbrian]

Dear Twins Players who read Twins Daily,

 

There are posters who believe that the Twins are throwing away 2013. Forgive them.

 

The only people who have the power to throwaway 2013 or declare 2013 thrown away are you guys... The players.

 

The front office can't do it, the coaches can't do it and the fans can't do it. And I ask... Don't you do it!!!

 

7 games out is nothing. Compete... hang zero's on the mound as often as you can... Compete... move your feet in the field... make the plays you should make in the field and make some plays that you shouldn't... Compete... help your pitcher out of jams... help stop the big inning from happening so you can return to the bench and start your own big inning. Compete... Approach every at bat with a game plan... Move the runners around... Compete... Take the extra base... Compete... Get dirty and celebrate your successes.

 

Hitting .200 or whatever right now... means nothing going forward... That's the stuff you throwaway.

 

Sincerly,

 

Riverbrian

[Blackjack]

The Twins have always valued a good closer because its very demoralazing for a team to lose games late - can you say Ron Davis? Perkins contract is a bargain.

 

Willingham is here because the Twins are trying to keep the fans coming to Target field to buy $7 beers and $5 hot dogs. By jettisoning all the veterans they'd be a 60 win team and the fans would leave in droves. On the other hand, with any luck at all, some decent starting pitching, natural progression by some of the young players like Ploufe, Parmalee, Dozier, and continued production by the core of veterans, they could be a .500 team and keep the fans coming to Target Field.

 

Unfortunatley, the starting pitching and progression is lacking at this point so the Twins are slowly sinking and the 'get rid of all the veterans' crowd here on Twins Daily may get their wish at the trade deadline.

[howieramone1406390264]

I honestly don't get the "this isn't our biggest problem" crowd? So . . . smaller problems don't add up to a big one?

Correct. Don't sweat the details. The big picture makes so much more sense.

[Oldgoat_MN]

.... (Perkins)

... available as an inexpensive closing option for a good team in strong need, or a marginally competing team, that wants to make a 2-3 month run to October without breaking the budget.

 

Good points, and this was maybe the best.

 

I just don't see the Twins spending the $9.5 million that Willingham and Perkins are making on someone who will make a difference.

 

The trade potential of Perkins later in the year does set an attractive scenario.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

There is no way to judge how Jackson would have been in Target Field. Wrigley is a very different place.

 

1. The park factor doesn't make up the difference on a 5.76 ERA and 1.54 WHIP to the point where it is worth the money he is being paid.

 

2. My main point was that with the SP available on the free agent market, that was attainable by the Twins, there weren't really any good options out there that would put the Twins into contention for a final playoff spot. We are better off using in house options with the hope that we can find another "Diamond" in the rough (pun intended) and not signing mediocre pitching that will block young prospects from the rotation in the next couple years. For every 1 FA pitcher from last off season you can find that is performing well, my guess is that I could find 2-3 at the same price range with poor numbers.

[Guest USAFChief]

Thanks OG, for a challenging and thought-provoking post in response.

 

OK here goes. I stand by all four players as unnecessary high dollar assets (but understand why they can't move Mauer).

 

Here's why:

 

For the Twins in a year they are throwing away, Perk and Willingham are high dollar most certainly. Especially Willingham, why is he here at 3yr/$7M/yr when he most certainly isn't part of future plans when the Twins FO finally decides to be competitive again? He is 34 coming off of likely his career-best year. Again, since the Twins had no intention of competing, why is he still here when he should have been offered at his potentially highest value during his 3 year contract with the Twins this last offseason? That $14M over this year and next and is better spent dedicated to locking up high-quality starting pitching for the next run- or in kick-starting that next run a year or two sooner.

 

Perkins is a cheaper than average closer to be sure, but the Twins committed up to 5 years to Perkins- up to the 2016 option year of his contract. They did this with evidently little intention of being legitimately competitive again until 2016. We all know this is a team that promised the fans to totally focus on upgrading the starting pitching and then went all out and paid their 2 new FA "aces" annual salaries of $4.5M and $4.0 million- these are dumpster dive rates in this era for decent SP, compared to Perkins $2.5M- when these are your alleged aces, the chances on cashing in with save opportunities for a closer above minimum wage makes each save that much more expensive. The logical thing for a truly rebuilding team is to employ a free-for-all minimum wage closer by committee and let the cream rise to the top.

 

The final potential year of Perkins contract will be when Perkins is 33 years old- so it is a little bit of a crapshoot that he will still be as effective as he is now. Since the Twins have decided to not be "all in" until then, they really have no need for a closer making any kind of decent money before then, so that's essentially a waste of the $11.85M portion of Perk's contract in the interim- and then finally with Perkins scheduled to make $4.5M in the 2016 team option year- when he may, or may not, still be effective.

 

The best argument to be made is the one I have intended on writing up soon, signing Perkins to a relatively cheap long-term deal to make him available as an inexpensive closing option for a good team in strong need, or a marginally competing team, that wants to make a 2-3 month run to October without breaking the budget. Tampa Bay, Baltimore, Atlanta and St Louis come to mind- they all have overall relief pitcher numbers in the bottom half of baseball, and they all 4 have mostly sub-par to ordinary lefty bullpen options and/or faltering closers (Tampa Bay and Baltimore). Those 4 teams have enticing prospects for the Twins to try to acquire, but all four clubs are probably too shrewd to make a deal favorable enough to the Twins for Perkins. And it's not clear if the Twins have any intentions to look in this direction- but pitching is always the hottest commodity at the deadline and Perk's value will likely never be higher- he is sitting at or well-above career highs in virtually every statistical category.

 

IMO the Twins would be crazy to deal Perkins. He's only 30, signed cheaply through 2016, and there's no reason to think he won't or can't be an important part of the bullpen through then. The money is inconsequential, and you aren't likely to get something in return as valuable as a LHer who throws in the mid 90's.

 

The trick is to add to the good players you already have, not trade away the good players in hopes what you get will turn out to be good players as well. Even if it works and your return turns into a good player, you're no farther ahead than you were before.

[Oxtung]

This thread is about the Twins CF discussion. I know it's easy to get dragged off topic but let's try and keep it relevant. In addition the off season starting pitching has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum.

[Thrylos]

This thread is about the Twins CF discussion. I know it's easy to get dragged off topic but let's try and keep it relevant. In addition the off season starting pitching has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum.

 

ok, here it goes:

Mike is 4-4 tonight. Here comes another CF controversy

[old nurse]

To those that think the Twins should be trading players away. Any player on the Twins is available if the price is right. The Revere and Span trades prove that. When the value of a Twins player to another team is high enough, Ryan will deal. If the player has more value to Ryan than others, he won't. Likewise, when a player becomes available, if Ryan wants to trade for that player, he has to give up something the other team wants. In the case of Borbon, the Rangers were looking for pitching and decided not to take a roster spot for what the Twins had to offer, you can look it up.

[Kwak]

Hmm, 2-0 with (what were those words again that shouted that Thomas was worthless and had no business getting a job). True, he isn't special, but so far he is better than the proverbial replacement player.

[Thrylos]

Hmm, 2-0 with (what were those words again that shouted that Thomas was worthless and had no business getting a job). True, he isn't special, but so far he is better than the proverbial replacement player.

 

One game is the proverbial small sample size.