Article: Twins MLB Draft Profile: Jonathan Gray, RHP

[Mike Sixel]

KLAW report includes commentary from Tony Gwynn, estimating that more than half of MLB players while he played used stimulants........

[Badsmerf]

I would argue that football is different in that many plays require fast reaction time. I can see how using a stimulant would be a benefit in that scenario. A pitcher isn't relying on reaction time, mostly just mental strength which a stimulant might hurt by increasing neural activity. I took it in college for a few all-nighters, and I found the positives to be mitigated by the negatives. Perhaps it is playing into his success and I'm wrong, I'm not a Dr. in neural, just taken a few classes on the brain.

[TheLeviathan]

I would argue that football is different in that many plays require fast reaction time. I can see how using a stimulant would be a benefit in that scenario. A pitcher isn't relying on reaction time, mostly just mental strength which a stimulant might hurt by increasing neural activity. I took it in college for a few all-nighters, and I found the positives to be mitigated by the negatives. Perhaps it is playing into his success and I'm wrong, I'm not a Dr. in neural, just taken a few classes on the brain.

 

Well your earlier point was to refute it because it wasn't a physical booster and my point is that even in largely physical sports, mental acumen is crucial.

 

i don't know if it helps, but it sure seems there is a rich history of guys in baseball who believed it did.

[Willihammer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't any studies out there linking stimulants to improved play athletically, is there? Instead, what this says to me on its face is that the kid likes to get high.

[nicksaviking]

Wow, what unfortunate timing for this report to come out. Obvioulsy a coincidence. Surely no unethical front office would leak this hoping he would slide to them.

[Mike Sixel]

Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't any studies out there linking stimulants to improved play athletically, is there? Instead, what this says to me on its face is that the kid likes to get high.

 

So all those MLB players like to get high? It isn't about studies, it is about belief, and for more than 6 decades at least, MLB players and others have believed that stimulants help them. heck, there are studies showing steroids don't help all that much, but people still took them.

[Kwak]

College students/athletes taking drugs? Wow--earhshattering. You are aware ths stuff is routinely given to school kids in special Ed? Performance enhancing? Guys will darn near do anything to keep-up-with-the-Jones.

[Willihammer]

So all those MLB players like to get high?

 

Would that be so far-fetched? Brain scans have shown that thrill seeking and addiction originate from the same area of the brain. Athletes tend to be thrill seekers.

 

And not to get too catchartic here but have you ever taken an ADHD test? They're a joke. As someone whose experimented with all manner of uppers, downers, laughers, and screamers, including Adderall, the main difference betwen Adderall and other drugs is that Adderall is much easier to get. It will get you just as high as other drugs.

[TheLeviathan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't any studies out there linking stimulants to improved play athletically, is there? Instead, what this says to me on its face is that the kid likes to get high.

 

I too believe that neither the world, nor any of it's phenomena, exist prior to double blind studies.

[Willihammer]

I too believe that neither the world, nor any of it's phenomena, exist prior to double blind studies.

 

All I'm saying is that in my view, the bigger conclusion to draw when an athlete tests positive for a psychoactive like Adderall, as opposed to testosterone or HGH, is not just that you might have a cheater on your hands, its that you might also be looking at an addict.

 

Guys can work around a 50 game suspension. An addiction, maybe not.

[Mike Sixel]

So 50+ years of MLB players taking stimulants because they believe it improves their games, is all about addiction, and not what they've all said which is that it is about using PEDs?

[TheLeviathan]

All I'm saying is that in my view, the bigger conclusion to draw when an athlete tests positive for a psychoactive like Adderall, as opposed to testosterone or HGH, is not just that you might have a cheater on your hands, its that you might also be looking at an addict.

 

Guys can work around a 50 game suspension. An addiction, maybe not.

 

That may in fact be a more dangerous conclusion, but in no way does a lack of studies confirming its use deny the potential positives on performance which I would argue was your actual point I'm refuting.

[nicksaviking]

So 50+ years of MLB players taking stimulants because they believe it improves their games, is all about addiction, and not what they've all said which is that it is about using PEDs?

 

Right, this wasn't about addiction. Or are we to believe that when MLB cracked down on stimulants nearly the whole league quit cold turkey with hardly any instances of relapse or the need for medically assisted withdrawl?

[Willihammer]

That may in fact be a more dangerous conclusion, but in no way does a lack of studies confirming its use deny the potential positives on performance which I would argue was your actual point I'm refuting.

 

Its tough to calculate Gray's true talent if the only evidence we have that stimulants actually improve performance -anecdotes from athletes, is invalid. A possiblity that nobody seems to consider. "But it helps me" could just as easily be rationalizing, as addicts are sometimes wont to do.

[TheLeviathan]

Its tough to calculate Gray's true talent if the only evidence we have that stimulants actually improve performance -anecdotes from athletes, is invalid. A possiblity that nobody seems to consider. "But it helps me" could just as easily be rationalizing, as addicts are sometimes wont to do.

 

I would argue its not, in fact, just as easy to assume that everybody is a drug addict. That is such a ridiculous leap.

[Shane Wahl]

Well there was a period of time around 2005 where I may have taken adderall as a recreational drug. May have done so. And it may be the case that I am surprised he is striking so many guys out instead of running up and hugging them and jabbering about how great the world is. It is flabbergasting that kids are given this.

 

I can't imagine it being a great athletic performance enhancer though. Unless you call drinking a lot an athletic performance.

[Steve Lein]

I'm actually more surprised by Keith Law's article with the "one-time indiscretion" remarks.

 

That's completely laughable to me, but it appears MLB teams actually buy that BS, or they don't care...

[Willihammer]

I would argue its not, in fact, just as easy to assume that everybody is a drug addict. That is such a ridiculous leap.

 

You deny there's a relationship between thrill seeking and addiction?

[diehardtwinsfan]

Stimulants do improve performance, whether it be in recovery time or limited durability in games. I'm surprised this is being debated. As I said earlier, adderall will not help you "concentrate" unless you already have ADHD. As a stimulant though, it has other benefits, and let's not pretend it doesn't work. They woudln't be banning it from the NFL if it didn't. While I've personally never used it, there is plenty more than anecdotal evidence that stimulants improve performance. Speed and PCP are really good examples of drugs that can give you a temporary boost.

[TheLeviathan]

You deny there's a relationship between thrill seeking and addiction?

 

No, I deny rushing to the conclusion he is a drug addict for using a substance players across eras and sports are/have been using as a performance enhancer is reasonable.

[Shane Wahl]

It literally could have been used once to go out and party (which is dangerous because one doesn't feel getting drunker and drunker). Now the big a-word is being bandied about?

[Willihammer]

No, I deny rushing to the conclusion he is a drug addict for using a substance players across eras and sports are/have been using as a performance enhancer is reasonable.

 

That is the reason. The link between thrill seeking and addiction. Either you deny that link, or you deny that athletes in general tend to be thrill seekers. You need to do one or the other, otherwise all the years of testimony from this bloc of drug users about how they are benefiting from the drugs is invalid.

[Badsmerf]

I feel there is a lot of over-reaction about this.

[TwinsFanInPhilly]

Today all the quant PhD's are Pharmacology PhD's - it's why I love this place

[TheLeviathan]

That is the reason. The link between thrill seeking and addiction. Either you deny that link, or you deny that athletes in general tend to be thrill seekers. You need to do one or the other, otherwise all the years of testimony from this bloc of drug users about how they are benefiting from the drugs is invalid.

 

Wow. Just....wow. I concede, clearly the accusation that most athletes are addicts stands on irrefutable logic.

 

Wow.

[Steve Lein]

It literally could have been used once to go out and party

 

You actually believe that would be the case?! Get out from under your rock...! q; )

[nicksaviking]

That is the reason. The link between thrill seeking and addiction. Either you deny that link, or you deny that athletes in general tend to be thrill seekers. You need to do one or the other, otherwise all the years of testimony from this bloc of drug users about how they are benefiting from the drugs is invalid.

 

Athletes = Thrill Seekeres = Addicts?

 

How about the more likely:

 

Professional athletes = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ = cheating

[Willihammer]

1 in 10 baseball players is has a meth prescription. Which means maybe 1 in 5 ballplayers is using since you can get your psychiatrist to up your doseage by simply saying "its not having much of an effect" and then share/sell the extra to your friends.

 

Say "meth" or "crank" instead of Adderall, because that's the street name for the same drug. Then does it sound more likely that we might be talking about addiction here? What we do know is that meth is highly addictive, and we're dealing with a very selective sample of the population, one that probably is at some elavated risk of addiction. What we don't know, is that using the drug is in any way beneficial to players, aside from their own testimony. But maybe the reason MLB banned beanies was because coaches and umpires got sick of dealing with strung out players all the time?

[70charger]

Stimulants do improve performance, whether it be in recovery time or limited durability in games. I'm surprised this is being debated. As I said earlier, adderall will not help you "concentrate" unless you already have ADHD. As a stimulant though, it has other benefits, and let's not pretend it doesn't work. They woudln't be banning it from the NFL if it didn't. While I've personally never used it, there is plenty more than anecdotal evidence that stimulants improve performance. Speed and PCP are really good examples of drugs that can give you a temporary boost.

 

Stimulants do improve athletic performance; there is ample evidence for this. Back when I was a swimmer (Pac-10 college), we were routinely drug tested for stimulants, including methylphenidate and dextroamphetamine. Regardless of prescription, they are illegal in top-level swimming. Most of the guys I swam with (and I) just got all hopped up on coffee instead.

 

That said, an endurance/aerobic sport like swimming is fundamentally different from pitching. Certainly it's useful if you get tired after 110 pitches instead of 90 pitches, but while swimming is a game of hundredths of seconds, pitching is a game of hundredths of inches. Command, control, placement, whatever you want to call it, it's more important than aerobic endurance.

 

I actually wonder what kind of advantage a pitcher would get out of it. I'm not sure it'd be much. And while I don't think it beyond the pale to think a pitcher would take it for performance reasons, I'm not ready to draw any conclusions about Gray's use, or even to conclude that it hurts his draft stock.

[TheLeviathan]

1 in 10 baseball players is has a meth prescription. Which means maybe 1 in 5 ballplayers is using since you can get your psychiatrist to up your doseage by simply saying "its not having much of an effect" and then share/sell the extra to your friends.

 

Say "meth" or "crank" instead of Adderall, because that's the street name for the same drug. Then does it sound more likely that we might be talking about addiction here? What we do know is that meth is highly addictive, and we're dealing with a very selective sample of the population, one that probably is at some elavated risk of addiction. What we don't know, is that using the drug is in any way beneficial to players, aside from their own testimony. But maybe the reason MLB banned beanies was because coaches and umpires got sick of dealing with strung out players all the time?

 

You realize by this same ridiculous logic one could call coffee drinkers "meth heads"?

 

Is this some kind of hilarious attempt at the utter destruction of your own credibility? If so, you sir are doing a mighty fine job. With each subsequent post in your "all athletes are meth addicts" rant, I know I am taking you less seriously.

 

In all seriousness, we are talking about some kid and his future and you are taking the discovery of a one time use of a prescribed stimulant and positing him a drug addict. That's just.....wow.