Article: Joe Benson claimed off waivers by Rangers

[LaBombo]

This is the reason I can't take a lot of these anti-Butera tirades seriously. No basis in reality.

Your counter-argument to the empirical fact that Son of Sal is one of the worst hitters of the modern era is the entirely subjective speculation that his defensive value outweighs his offensive liability because he has a job playing baseball in a level of the minors where veterans his age are usually as interchangeable as gas grill propane tanks.

 

You further speculate that he has that job because of what you are mostly guessing is the collective opinion of Twins talent evaluators. And you imply that they must be right about SoS despite the fact that they are largely the same outfit that publicly dedicated itself to improving what is currently the worst 'rotation' in baseball, p!ssed away over 20 million dollars on Blackburn and Nishioka, and traded a HoF-caliber pitcher in his prime for a bag of magic beans that grew up to be Jim Hoey.

 

Why are they right? Because, hey, they also have jobs with a franchise that's lost nearly 100 games the past two seasons and was on pace to do so again as recently as last weekend.

 

Not sure how the Twins' questionable decision to overpay Butera helps their credibility, or your argument for that matter.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Sounds like it was a good move all around.

 

Rochester is 6-1 since Benson left.

[jokin]

Benson 1-for-1 so far tonight. And YES, I am going to keep doing this for while.

 

As a change of pace, couldn't you just start calling him "The Frisco Kid"?:shoot:

[jokin]

Sounds like it was a good move all around.

 

Rochester is 6-1 since Benson left.

 

...Making Rob Antony look like a veritable genius....

[Riverbrian]

Benson 1-for-1 so far tonight. And YES, I am going to keep doing this for while.

 

I've only read scouting reports that suggested great potential with Benson.

 

I've also read statistics that suggest something a miss of late.

 

I watched him play a handful of unimpressive games during a September call up that I immediately didn't hold against him since it had to be learning experience for him.

 

I also knew that his clock was about to expire. All in All... I was pretty Meh on this move.

 

However... I like ya Shane and I think you are good source of farm information.

 

So... I promise to read every one of your forthcoming Benson Reports.

[jokin]

I've only read scouting reports that suggested great potential with Benson.

 

I've also read statistics that suggest something a miss of late.

 

I watched him play a handful of unimpressive games during a September call up that I immediately didn't hold against him since it had to be learning experience for him.

 

I also knew that his clock was about to expire. All in All... I was pretty Meh on this move.

 

However... I like ya Shane and I think you are good source of farm information.

 

So... I promise to read every one of your forthcoming Benson Reports.

 

Hey "sympathy props" and "golf claps" are sometimes considered trolling in these here parts nowadays... you just leave "The Frisco Kid" be....

[Nick Nelson]

I won't claim to know if Butera is or is not an elite defensive catcher, but aren't those the same talent evaluators who thought Nishi was a starting MLB shortstop, and who thought Matt Capps was an elite enough relief pitcher to trade a top prospect for AND forfeit a 1st round draft pick to keep?

You think you need to tell me, of all people, that the Twins' decision-makers are not infallible?

 

They miss the mark, plenty often. And I call them on those mistakes, probably more so than any other writer on this site. But they are also not clueless morons. If they've kept Butera around for this long, and waived several players from the 40-man roster ahead of him, and are paying him $700K to play in the minors right now, then clearly they recognize an enduring value in his presence. Who am I as an outsider to authoritatively call them idiots? I personally do believe they overvalue Butera and I wish they'd move on, but I'm not unwilling to try and see things from their perspective and I guess that's where I differ.

 

I try to remain objective and there's no objectivity here when it comes to the topic of Butera. He's an absolutely dreadful hitter and because of that people choose not to bother trying to understand what sort of positives he might actually bring to the table. No shock that we once again see him being tied to every one of the organization's problems... I'm sure since some international scout and/or Bill Smith once screwed up on Nishioka it means Ryan and Gardenhire have no clue what they're doing in assessing the necessity of a single defensive-minded catcher on the 40-man roster. Totally related situations.

 

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this conversation. I'm tired of being put in the position of defending a player I don't even like. By all means, keep on with the ridiculous ranting over a guy who currently has absolutely nothing to do with this team's problems.

[Riverbrian]

Hey "sympathy props" and "golf claps" are sometimes considered trolling in these here parts nowadays... you just leave "The Frisco Kid" be....

 

No trolling... He's a Benson Supporter and he doesn't have to justify his support to me. So I support his support.

 

Besides if Benson is tearing it up in Frisco... I find that interesting and I'm too lazy to look up Frisco box scores myself... So yeah there is a big major selfish portion to it as well.

[Mr. Brooks]

You think you need to tell me, of all people, that the Twins' decision-makers are not infallible?

 

They miss the mark, plenty often. And I call them on those mistakes, probably more so than any other writer on this site. But they are also not clueless morons. If they've kept Butera around for this long, and waived several players from the 40-man roster ahead of him, and are paying him $700K to play in the minors right now, then clearly they recognize an enduring value in his presence. Who am I as an outsider to authoritatively call them idiots? I personally do believe they overvalue Butera and I wish they'd move on, but I'm not unwilling to try and see things from their perspective and I guess that's where I differ.

 

I try to remain objective and there's no objectivity here when it comes to the topic of Butera. He's an absolutely dreadful hitter and because of that people choose not to bother trying to understand what sort of positives he might actually bring to the table. No shock that we once again see him being tied to every one of the organization's problems... I'm sure since some international scout and/or Bill Smith once screwed up on Nishioka it means Ryan and Gardenhire have no clue what they're doing in assessing the necessity of a single defensive-minded catcher on the 40-man roster. Totally related situations.

 

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this conversation. I'm tired of being put in the position of defending a player I don't even like. By all means, keep on with the ridiculous ranting over a guy who currently has absolutely nothing to do with this team's problems.

 

As far as I know I've never said anything regarding Drew Butera. I am with you in the minority as not really having a problem with Drew Butera on the roster.

The only time it has ever bothered me was during the bi lateral leg weakness year when he was playing everyday (which is unacceptable).

 

I think people are missing my point.

I'm not bashing the Twins FO for not being perfect. I'm pointing out that all talent evaluators have hits and misses, so therefore simply pointing to their evaluation of Butera as an argument is worthless. For all we know they could be wrong about him (or right about him.)

 

And yes, you do tell it like it is most often. I have no problem with your views of the club Nick, they are generally spot on.

[jokin]

No trolling... He's a Benson Supporter and he doesn't have to justify his support to me. So I support his support.

 

Besides if Benson is tearing it up in Frisco... I find that interesting and I'm too lazy to look up Frisco box scores myself... So yeah there is a big major selfish portion to it as well.

 

My tongue was firmly planted in cheek... "Frisco" is simply one more trifling Twins FO bemusement in yet another lonnnng season.

 

Oh... BTW, the "Kid" is now 2 for 2 tonite.

[Shane Wahl]

Where has this conversation even gone? Some facts seem to be in need of expression:

 

Waiving Joe Benson was a mistake.

Drew Butera was once a premium defensive catcher and is no longer a premium defensive catcher. He certainly was a better option to simply remove from the 40-man roster. That is obvious.

[LaBombo]

Yes, and the same evaluators that took Mauer over Prior, and got Morneau in the 3rd round and Kubel in a late round. And that saw something left in Carl Pavano... and, and, and... if anyone is expecting perfection from any organization, it's just not going to be found.

Anyone arguing that the Twins' subjective opinion of Son of Sal's defense s evidence that he's worth a 40 spot needs the the Twins to be nearly perfect at evaluating talent before their opinion carries much weight against the fact that he can't hit.

[LaBombo]

Oh... BTW, the "Kid" is now 2 for 2 tonite.

And word has it he also rescued four kids and their mom from a house fire on the way to the ballpark today...

[diehardtwinsfan]

No trolling... He's a Benson Supporter and he doesn't have to justify his support to me. So I support his support.

 

Besides if Benson is tearing it up in Frisco... I find that interesting and I'm too lazy to look up Frisco box scores myself... So yeah there is a big major selfish portion to it as well.

 

1.780 OPS thus far (SSS I know)... Back before Ramos got traded, we saw something similar. He started the year in AAA and was absolutely dreadful. He got traded and suddenly looked like his old self. I really wonder if he was being told only to swing at certain pitches... who knows.

[Nick Nelson]

As far as I know I've never said anything regarding Drew Butera. I am with you in the minority as not really having a problem with Drew Butera on the roster.

I sort of started out responding to your post and then went on a tangent. Didn't mean to make it seem like that was all directed at you.

[ThePuck]

And word has it he also rescued four kids and their mom from a house fire on the way to the ballpark today...

 

Oh, so it's not a rumor...cool, cause I heard the same thing...

[cmathewson]

All I can say is the Twins must be doing pretty friggin' awesome if the top subject of conversation on this site is whether to keep a 29-year-old AAAA catcher or a 25-year-old AA outfielder on the 40-man roster. Neither has much upside. The catcher actually has some trade value, once he proves to be healthy. The outfielder obviously doesn't have any trade value, considering that 25 teams passed on even making a waiver claim on him.

 

MEH

[diehardtwinsfan]

All I can say is the Twins must be doing pretty friggin' awesome if the top subject of conversation on this site is whether to keep a 29-year-old AAAA catcher or a 25-year-old AA outfielder on the 40-man roster. Neither has much upside. The catcher actually has some trade value, once he proves to be healthy. The outfielder obviously doesn't have any trade value, considering that 25 teams passed on even making a waiver claim on him.

 

MEH

 

Actually, the 25 year old CF had quite a bit of upside. That's why people are upset.

 

Whether the Twins had any chance of unlocking it at this point is the real question.

[cmathewson]

Actually, the 25 year old CF had quite a bit of upside. That's why people are upset.

 

Whether the Twins had any chance of unlocking it at this point is the real question.

 

Before I say a guy has upside, he has to prove to me that he can hit an off-speed pitch. It's one of those necessary conditions for major league players. He has shown he can hit the fastball. He's never shown he can hit the curve or change. That's why he has struggled above AA, where guys can throw off-speed pitches for strikes.

[TheLeviathan]

Before I say a guy has upside, he has to prove to me that he can hit an off-speed pitch. It's one of those necessary conditions for major league players. He has shown he can hit the fastball. He's never shown he can hit the curve or change. That's why he has struggled above AA, where guys can throw off-speed pitches for strikes.

 

Do you know that's the issue or is that just an over-generalization you're passing off as a truth? I'm not saying it isn't true, but your generalities are hardly convincing.

 

I find it amusing that you seem to be implying Butera, who can't hit anything, has upside/value in the same breath you're dogging a younger hitter's struggles. Struggles, I might add, that have also been plagued by injuries.

 

Some of the same people here dogging Benson are the same that will defend Plouffe to their deathbed by claiming injuries sapped his hitting abilities last year. Yet Benson, gets no such pass and not even the cordial acknowledgment that it may have a lot to do with his struggles.

 

The fact is, Butera's salary and deficiencies make him an easy guy to waive. It should've been him or the equally value-less Hermsen. If Benson had no value, fine. Ride out the year with him because he's your only capable defensive CF left on the 40 man should something happen to Hicks.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Where has this conversation even gone? Some facts seem to be in need of expression:

 

Waiving Joe Benson was a mistake.

Drew Butera was once a premium defensive catcher and is no longer a premium defensive catcher. He certainly was a better option to simply remove from the 40-man roster. That is obvious.

 

With respect, these are both opinions, not facts.

[jokin]

Sounds like it was a good move all around.

 

Rochester is 6-1 since Benson left.

 

Since Shane apparently took the night off, let me confirm that this definitely appears to be the best move all around.....Frisco is now 5-1 since the "Kid" moved into CF for them. Oh, he hit another HR tonight (4th in 6 games), and now sports an .1167 SLG and a .1643 OPS for Frisco in 6 games played.

[drjim]

Since Shane apparently took the night off, let me confirm that this definitely appears to be the best move all around.....Frisco is now 5-1 since the "Kid" moved into CF for them. Oh, he hit another HR tonight (4th in 6 games), and now sports an .1167 SLG and a .1643 OPS for Frisco in 6 games played.

 

I don't think anyone had doubts on his ability to hit AA pitching. Good for him though, hopefully he can run with his new opportunity.

[jokin]

I don't think anyone had doubts on his ability to hit AA pitching. Good for him though, hopefully he can run with his new opportunity.

 

I think there were/are some doubters. AA numbers in 2012: .184/.268/.305/.572.

[Pius Jefferson]

I think there were/are some doubters. AA numbers in 2012: .184/.268/.305/.572.

 

Wasn't he playing hurt at New Britain last season?

[jokin]

Wasn't he playing hurt at New Britain last season?

 

Apparently that was/is in doubt- waived by Twins....

[diehardtwinsfan]

14 pages and running. What's the thread record here at TD? Got to think this one is getting close if it hasn't already obliterated it.

[Dilligaf69]

14 pages and running. What's the thread record here at TD? Got to think this one is getting close if it hasn't already obliterated it.

 

 

HAHA...haven't posted here in quite awhile but unreal...14 pages..really??

[cmathewson]

Do you know that's the issue or is that just an over-generalization you're passing off as a truth? I'm not saying it isn't true, but your generalities are hardly convincing.

 

I find it amusing that you seem to be implying Butera, who can't hit anything, has upside/value in the same breath you're dogging a younger hitter's struggles. Struggles, I might add, that have also been plagued by injuries.

 

Some of the same people here dogging Benson are the same that will defend Plouffe to their deathbed by claiming injuries sapped his hitting abilities last year. Yet Benson, gets no such pass and not even the cordial acknowledgment that it may have a lot to do with his struggles.

 

The fact is, Butera's salary and deficiencies make him an easy guy to waive. It should've been him or the equally value-less Hermsen. If Benson had no value, fine. Ride out the year with him because he's your only capable defensive CF left on the 40 man should something happen to Hicks.

 

Sure, I used a generality because of time and space. I just complained about what a waste of time this whole thread is, and here I am typing in it. FWIW, it's often cited that his last hurdle before being major league ready is hitting the breaking ball. If everyone knows this, they have little reason to throw him anything else (if they can). Either thy don't know this in his new league or they can't throw the curve over for strikes. So he's hitting well right now. When and if he gets promoted, he'll be face to face with the same hurdle. At 25 and two promotions away....

 

On Butera, I'm only going on what several industry insiders have said. Rosenthal, for example, was quoted as saying "several teams" were interested in acquiring Butera (before he got hurt), but the Twins said they wanted to stash him for depth. We know Benson has no trade interest based on how many teams passed on making a waiver claim.

[Shane Wahl]

Sure, I used a generality because of time and space. I just complained about what a waste of time this whole thread is, and here I am typing in it. FWIW, it's often cited that his last hurdle before being major league ready is hitting the breaking ball. If everyone knows this, they have little reason to throw him anything else (if they can). Either thy don't know this in his new league or they can't throw the curve over for strikes. So he's hitting well right now. When and if he gets promoted, he'll be face to face with the same hurdle. At 25 and two promotions away....

 

On Butera, I'm only going on what several industry insiders have said. Rosenthal, for example, was quoted as saying "several teams" were interested in acquiring Butera (before he got hurt), but the Twins said they wanted to stash him for depth. We know Benson has no trade interest based on how many teams passed on making a waiver claim.

 

Did the Twins state that the issue was the breaking ball? I hope they did somewhere, so it would make me feel better about the Twins org.

 

Anyway, the outburst since joining Frisco is nothing to just scoff at. If one wants to track down what pitches he was hitting out of the yard and hitting for a double and a triple, that'd be cool.

 

Again, there was no reason to throw a CF away, especially one who as recently as this March was in the top 10-20 of essentially every Twins prospect list out there.

 

Apparently numbers just lie about Butera's defense?

 

As far as "trade interest" and Benson vs. waiver claim. There is a big difference between a waiver claim in May and being a part of some kind of trade with a major leaguer as the main part of the package at the deadline or even in the offseason. People really blow early in the season waiver claim stuff out of proportion at TD, as though it means something essential and unchangeable about a player's value for the entire season.