Article: Joe Benson claimed off waivers by Rangers

[golfboy1]

So let's run through these:

 

-Arcia-Hicks-Parmelee (ok, not a great defense at all, and a question in RF offensively, and this assumes someone else is around next year to play 1B)

-Arcia-Hicks-Doumit or Colabello (not real RF at all)

-Arcia-Hicks-Ramirez (Ramirez as a starter? Yikes)

-Arcia-Hicks-Mastro (Mastro as a starter? yikes)

 

Danny Ortiz has actually improved his numbers WITH the move up this year to AA. That is encouraging. And Benson got away and his smacking a homer a game at the moment.

 

The point is that the Twins have now gotten rid of Span, Revere, and Benson with Aaron Hicks having a very slow adjustment time to big league baseball. I thought that the CF position was to be valued?

 

 

Well, they are playing Parmelee & Doumit out there now so that is certainly an option. I'm not claiming that Mastro or Ramirez would be a very good option as a starter but I don't see how Ortiz or Benson would qualify as an improvement. Ortiz is doing better @ AA but he is still hitting .294 & striking out once a game. He would be overmatched @ the ML level & unless Benson does a miracle turnaround I don't see him making an impact.

 

I think the Span & Revere trades were worthwhile but the Twins should have found someone to bring to camp who was a reasonable option. At the least, they should have went after Borbon when he was available since Hicks was off to a poor start by then.

[jokin]

They may be. But when you're basing your argument on his CS% and passed ball numbers compiled in a limited sample size while working with a preposterously bad pitching staff, perhaps we can acknowledge that they may have better insight on the matter? That's not meant as a dig, but the fact is that there really aren't any great metrics for evaluating catcher defense, especially when we're talking about a sample of 135 total games over the last two years.

 

So...you're essentially saying that you, and the Twins FO, have nothing substantive or objective to stand on in the claim that Butera should continue to be valued as a current plus- (or once-great in 2010?) defensive catcher?

[jokin]

Well, they are playing Parmelee & Doumit out there now so that is certainly an option. I'm not claiming that Mastro or Ramirez would be a very good option as a starter but I don't see how Ortiz or Benson would qualify as an improvement. Ortiz is doing better @ AA but he is still hitting .294 & striking out once a game. He would be overmatched @ the ML level & unless Benson does a miracle turnaround I don't see him making an impact.

 

I think the Span & Revere trades were worthwhile but the Twins should have found someone to bring to camp who was a reasonable option. At the least, they should have went after Borbon when he was available since Hicks was off to a poor start by then.

 

I swear, I feel like I found my long-lost, separated-at-birth sibling...

[darin617]

Anyone happen to check out his stats at AA? 11 AB's 1 triple and 3 HR... looks like possibly another hitter who could excel after not having to hit "the Twins way". Good luck Joe and I can't wait to see you make them pay for dumping you like they should have done to Gardy and his little buddy Rick Anderson a long time ago.

[snepp]

I swear, I feel like I find my long-lost,separated-at-birth sibling...

 

I'll let the administration know they'll be needing additional moderators.

 

 

 

[howieramone1406390264]

I don't think that's clear yet. I personally don't get the argument that "he's hit three homeruns...we really screwed up!" The mistake with Benson has little to do with his future - whether he becomes a career AA player or a future all-star - it was about value. The Twins have had a 6-7 year run now of being woefully inept at maximizing value.

 

Not cutting Hermson or Butera over Benson is another example of this. Benson needed a change of scenery, but it didn't need to happen now and in this way over far better options for waivers. That's the mistake IMO.

 

6 or 7 years and it comes to a head with Joe Benson. Would you be satisfied with Ryan's head or are we talking ownership?

[launchingthrees]

So...you're essentially saying that you, and the Twins FO, have nothing substantive or objective to stand on in the claim that Butera should continue be valued as a current plus- (or once-great in 2010?) defensive catcher?

 

Nah man the Twins have some secret player evaluation tools and no one else in the world understands them. TRUST THEM. It has NOTHING to do with his father. War, ops, woba, WRC+ can't show a man's heart.

[ashbury]

make them pay for dumping you like they should have done to Gardy and his little buddy Rick Anderson a long time ago.

 

Connecting the loss on waivers of a AAA center fielder to a major league pitching coach is a leap I just don't quite have the intellect to follow you in, my brother.

[Nick Nelson]

So...you're essentially saying that you, and the Twins FO, have nothing substantive or objective to stand on in the claim that Butera should continue to be valued as a current plus- (or once-great in 2010?) defensive catcher?

 

What I'm saying is that catcher defense is often one of those things better evaluated by the people on the field. There are many nuances to the position that can't be quantified. I certainly haven't seen anything substantive to convince me that he's not a plus defensive catcher, and I don't think there's anything objective about choosing SSS stats and presenting them as evidence of his decline. Joe Mauer's CS% was 14% last year, he must have the worst arm in league history, right?

 

Could someone explain to me why Butera, who's been reputed as a top-notch defensive backstop throughout his career, would suddenly undergo a major decline in his late 20s? Has he been hurt? Is there anything to back up this viewpoint other than a couple insignificant statistics?

[LaBombo]

Could someone explain to me why Butera, who's been reputed as a top-notch defensive backstop throughout his career, would suddenly undergo a major decline in his late 20s?

Because people are beginning to realize that a good chunk of his "top-notch" defensive reputation can be attributed to Nichols' Law of Catcher Defense?

[stringer bell]

Nah man the Twins have some secret player evaluation tools and no one else in the world understands them. TRUST THEM. It has NOTHING to do with his father. War, ops, woba, WRC+ can't show a man's heart.

It is TWTW, just ask Hawk.

[Nick Nelson]

Because people are beginning to realize that a good chunk of his "top-notch" defensive reputation can be attributed to Nichols' Law of Catcher Defense?

 

So your argument is that the Twins, a major-league baseball organization filled with professional talent evaluators, have a view on Butera that amounts to "Hey, this guy's a historically bad hitter so he must be a really great defender!" And that's the reason they've kept him around for the last three years and paid him $700K in arb this year.

 

This is the reason I can't take a lot of these anti-Butera tirades seriously. No basis in reality.

[TheLeviathan]

6 or 7 years and it comes to a head with Joe Benson. Would you be satisfied with Ryan's head or are we talking ownership?

 

Um, no. But this shows they may not have learned their lesson on this front. I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to twist my post this many ways.

 

I'd just like them to start thinking more about value in their moves. Cutting Benson over Hermsen is just a baffling waste of value. I didn't call for any heads, I called for an improvement. Hold your horses chief.

[jokin]

So your argument is that the Twins, a major-league baseball organization filled with professional talent evaluators, have a view on Butera that amounts to "Hey, this guy's a historically bad hitter so he must be a really great defender!" And that's the reason they've kept him around for the last three years and paid him $700K in arb this year.

 

This is the reason I can't take a lot of these anti-Butera tirades seriously. No basis in reality.

 

Please show your numbers, or the Twins' numbers on the defensive side that demonstrate that your/their perception of Butera has a "basis in reality." The only thing substantive you've proffered thus far- his defensive prowess has "been reputed." Need more, so I'll wait.

[Shane Wahl]

It is clear that Butera is a good defensive catcher. So is Mauer, right now. That he is currently a "premium" defensive catcher is certainly up for debate. The numbers don't show that. At all.

[Mr. Brooks]

So your argument is that the Twins, a major-league baseball organization filled with professional talent evaluators, have a view on Butera that amounts to "Hey, this guy's a historically bad hitter so he must be a really great defender!" And that's the reason they've kept him around for the last three years and paid him $700K in arb this year.

 

This is the reason I can't take a lot of these anti-Butera tirades seriously. No basis in reality.

 

I won't claim to know if Butera is or is not an elite defensive catcher, but aren't those the same talent evaluators who thought Nishi was a starting MLB shortstop, and who thought Matt Capps was an elite enough relief pitcher to trade a top prospect for AND forfeit a 1st round draft pick to keep?

[jokin]

I won't claim to know if Butera is or is not an elite defensive catcher, but aren't those the same talent evaluators who thought Nishi was a starting MLB shortstop, and who thought Matt Capps was an elite enough relief pitcher to trade a top prospect for AND forfeit a 1st round draft pick to keep?

 

Ouch! THAT...is going to leave a mark...

[Mr. Brooks]

Ouch! THAT...is going to leave a mark...

 

And I didn't even mention trading JJ Hardy for a bag of beans.

[jokin]

It is clear that Butera is a good defensive catcher. So is Mauer, right now. That he is currently a "premium" defensive catcher is certainly up for debate. The numbers don't show that. At all.

 

But you're not allowed to use the numbers to prove a negative. Only positively nebulous scouting evaluations count when the numbers don't.... "add up."

[Shane Wahl]

Danggggggg.

[howieramone1406390264]

I won't claim to know if Butera is or is not an elite defensive catcher, but aren't those the same talent evaluators who thought Nishi was a starting MLB shortstop, and who thought Matt Capps was an elite enough relief pitcher to trade a top prospect for AND forfeit a 1st round draft pick to keep?

Correct and don't forget Buxton and Sano.

[jokin]

And I didn't even mention trading JJ Hardy for a bag of beans.

 

Don't remind me. No need for any Gold Glove SS around here when we have excess plus-plus, no-bat defensive catchers and willing to play for around the minimum salary---and the chance to market the "Twins Way" in Japan by signing a guy, who to this day, no one in the org. has confessed to seeing in advance----and the chance to dump the Gold Glove SS in favor of acquiring a relief-pitching, straight-ball throwing, career minor league failure--ahh,, silly me!---it's all in the "evaluation"....

[jokin]

Correct and don't forget Buxton and Sano.

 

Completely different department.

[howieramone1406390264]

Completely different department.

 

Paychecks are signed by the same guy.

[Han Joelo]

Brothers:

 

Please let this thread die and get back to filing your TPS reports, or you're going to have to come in on Saturday.

 

Yours truly,

your Boss. (Or your mom, upstairs)

 

seriously though, when evaluating marginal prospects, I guess I'm in the kool-aid camp and say tie goes to character. Not saying Benson is low character, just the wrong kind.

 

Peace.

[Mr. Brooks]

Correct and don't forget Buxton and Sano.

Right, so they are hit and miss (like most talent evaluators in any line of business.), which is kind of my point.

Arguing that the talent evaluators think he is something, so that automatically makes it so is not a great argument, IMO.

[Seth Stohs]

I won't claim to know if Butera is or is not an elite defensive catcher, but aren't those the same talent evaluators who thought Nishi was a starting MLB shortstop, and who thought Matt Capps was an elite enough relief pitcher to trade a top prospect for AND forfeit a 1st round draft pick to keep?

 

Yes, and the same evaluators that took Mauer over Prior, and got Morneau in the 3rd round and Kubel in a late round. And that saw something left in Carl Pavano... and, and, and... if anyone is expecting perfection from any organization, it's just not going to be found.

[Mr. Brooks]

Yes, and the same evaluators that took Mauer over Prior, and got Morneau in the 3rd round and Kubel in a late round. And that saw something left in Carl Pavano... and, and, and... if anyone is expecting perfection from any organization, it's just not going to be found.

 

That is kind of my point. They all have hits and misses, which makes the argument: "The talent evaluators think he is elite defensively, so that automatically confirms he is", a ridiculous argument, IMO.

[jokin]

Paychecks are signed by the same guy.

 

Irrelevant to your original, incorrect, point.

[Shane Wahl]

Benson 1-for-1 so far tonight. And YES, I am going to keep doing this for while.