Article: Joe Benson claimed off waivers by Rangers

[Kwak]

By Golly, 10 pages about waiving a failure. My favorite is: "there is worse than Benson". Perhaps the discussion should be about why there are so many on the 40-man roster who deserve to be waived? Perhaps the rants should be about replacing the decision makers instead of the "failing" players?

I truly wonder how many of the teeth gnashers on this thread will surface in 2 years or so when Hicks is replaced by Buxton? Will there be rants about Hicks--"he was a 5-tool player"? Continuing with "surely a compentent GM could have obtained multiple prospects for this 1/7 hitter".

[Guest USAFChief]

By Golly, 10 pages about waiving a failure.

9 pages before you weighed in.

[Brad Swanson]

Benson's "two years" of failure spanned 108 games.

[Mr. Brooks]

Is it possible that Benson's struggles were caused by the Twins trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and change his approach at the plate to fit the "Twins way"?

Probably not, I know, but I couldn't help but think of this when I read the Gomez comments, and was reminded of the Hardy and Ortiz comments.

 

Perhaps he goes to Texas and is told, "kid, stop trying to hit the ball the other way and just let 'er rip".

Who knows if this will change his performance, but at this point it honestly would not shock me if it did.

[LaBombo]

I may not agree but I've come to accept it. I wish others would do the same. Anti-Butera opinions are not wrong or meaningless, they just don't need to be regurgitated ad nauseum every single time the Twins make a 40-man roster decision. Especially when the guy who was dropped had far less chance of making any kind of impact for the big-league club.

It looks like you're arguing that people should talk less about the mistake of retaining Butera instead of another player because the Twins have made that mistake over and over again. In my experience, repeating a mistake tends to have the opposite effect on how often it becomes a topic of conversation.

 

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence. By definition, a replacement level player has the effect of reducing their team's chance to win by the difference between the value of the player whose place they take and replacement level. Given the difference between Butera's below-replacement level play and that of either Mauer or Doumit, Butera would indeed have a major impact if he were to receive a significant amount of playing time.

 

As for the notion that Benson could almost certainly not contribute to the organizaton, well, the Twins have a starting center batting .123 in three quarters of his at bats, one healthy true center field backup above AA ball with a total of 4 at bats in the majors, and recently made Chris Parmelee stand in center field during a major league baseball game. It seems safe to say that, however unlikely, it was certainly possible that Benson could have had a more positive impact for the Twins than Butera, either this season or in the future.

 

But I wish you well, to some extent at least, in your quest to have the name of Drew Butera stricken from every 40 man roster discussion, every scroll and tablet, every pylon and obelisk, and every monument in Twins Territory. As an extra-peaceful olive branch, I will henceforth refer to He Whose Name Shall not be Spoken as... how about... Son of Sal?

[jokin]

Is it possible that Benson's struggles were caused by the Twins trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and change his approach at the plate to fit the "Twins way"?

Probably not, I know, but I couldn't help but think of this when I read the Gomez comments, and was reminded of the Hardy and Ortiz comments.

 

Perhaps he goes to Texas and is told, "kid, stop trying to hit the ball the other way and just let 'er rip".

Who knows if this will change his performance, but at this point it honestly would not shock me if it did.

 

Or, putting it in Ortiz terms, the Manager for Rangers AA affiliate, Frisco, might have said something to the effect of what the Red Sox manager said to Ortiz in 2003: "This isn't the Twins!!! Stop swinging like a girl....!!!"

[LaBombo]

Perhaps the discussion should be about why there are so many on the 40-man roster who deserve to be waived?

Page 5.

[jokin]

Just a reiteration of a long-ago prediction. Son of Sal stays on the roster until he qualifies for his ML pension.

[LaBombo]

Just a reiteration of a long-ago prediction. Son of Sal stays on the roster until he qualifies for his ML pension.

And rumor has it he's already checking out townhouse lease prices in Cedar Rapids

[jokin]

Or, putting it in Ortiz terms, the Manager for Rangers AA affiliate, Frisco, might have said something to the effect of what the Red Sox manager said to Ortiz in 2003: "This isn't the Twins!!! Stop swinging like a girl....!!!"

 

Starting to become a trend? Benson with his 3rd HR in 3 games...oh....plus a triple tonight...

[Mike Sixel]

Hermsen moved to the bullpen in AA, why was he not the one DFA'd?

[Nick Nelson]

I know people seem to think that premium defensive catchers who can't hit grow on trees, but the Twins don't share that opinion. They need to have someone around who can come up and hold things together behind the plate if Mauer or Doumit goes down. They apparently reached the conclusion that it will be more difficult to find that type of player in a pinch than a backup center fielder. They're probably correct.

 

It seems safe to say that, however unlikely, it was certainly possible that Benson could have had a more positive impact for the Twins than Butera, either this season or in the future.

I don't think that's safe to say at all. Butera will be the first one called up if there's an injury to a catcher. Benson was undoubtedly behind several others in line for a call-up even as an injury replacement. He wasn't going to be around after this year.

[Shane Wahl]

Drew Butera isn't a premium defensive catcher.

[Shane Wahl]

Hermsen moved to the bullpen in AA, why was he not the one DFA'd?

 

Hermsen isn't in my new top 40 prospects, and maybe not in the 41-50 range. That ship sailed. And no one was going to claim him.

[Shane Wahl]

Benson's "two years" of failure spanned 108 games.

 

I know! "Two years" is just garbage. Can't wait to see if he smacks another one today.

[Shane Wahl]

Considering that 20 teams just passed on the opportunity to add Benson for free, I doubt many would find him an appealing trade chip. How much was he really going to improve his numbers in two months, especially considering that he's demonstrated no ability whatsoever to hit high-level pitching? Again, for all this talk but his "talent" Benson has hit .199 with a 98/24 K/BB ratio between Triple-A and the majors, and he's about to be 26 and out of options in an organization with a loaded OF pipeline. He wouldn't have been my first choice to jettison but I'm truly baffled by all the fuss this is raising.

 

FWIW, Jim Mandelaro, who covers the Red Wings for the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, is fully on board with the decision.

 

It is definitely true around here that people blow the waiver wire way the hell out of proportion with "x number of teams passed on him . . ." and make bad conclusions outside of the context of the waiver wire. You are now comparing the waiver wire in late May to a trade deadline deal. Those are very different situations, especially when the player mentioned is merely an add-in to the deal.

[Nick Nelson]

Drew Butera isn't a premium defensive catcher.

 

Oh. OK.

[Shane Wahl]

Oh. OK.

 

Do you have evidence that he is? Certainly I think he is good at working with pitchers--there is no doubt about that. His CS% has fallen off a cliff after 2010. It would seem that people (including Gardenhire) fell in love with his "defensive prowess" after 2010 and then ignored what has become of that defense in the past two years.

 

Do we want to compare the number of passed balls vs. Mauer?

[Nick Nelson]

Do you have evidence that he is?

 

The fact that he's managed to rack up enough service time over the past three years to hit arbitration despite a sub-.500 OPS is a pretty good indicator. The whole notion that the people running the Twins are completely clueless morons isn't an especially compelling explanation to me. Obviously they recognize that he can't hit, but value other aspects of his game enough to keep him around and pay him $700K in Triple-A.

 

Butera is not a good player and at times he's been way overexposed, no question about that. I just wish people would keep an open mind and make an effort to at least recognize the guy's strengths while doling out (very justifiable) criticism.

[DaveW]

Doumit > Butera behind the plate, clearly. What would various scouts, coaches and front office people know?!?!

[Mike Sixel]

I don't know how good Butera is behind the plate, but I don't believe that any amount of catcher defense is enough to make up for that offense. The Twins disagree. Not sure why. His catcher ERA is not great. His pitch framing is not great. I really don't know what it is, but they see something I and others do not.

 

I guess I'd ask his defenders, given his hitting, how many runs would he need to save on defense over a league average hitting catcher, and do you think he does that?

[Shane Wahl]

The fact that he's managed to rack up enough service time over the past three years to hit arbitration despite a sub-.500 OPS is a pretty good indicator. The whole notion that the people running the Twins are completely clueless morons isn't an especially compelling explanation to me. Obviously they recognize that he can't hit, but value other aspects of his game enough to keep him around and pay him $700K in Triple-A.

 

Butera is not a good player and at times he's been way overexposed, no question about that. I just wish people would keep an open mind and make an effort to at least recognize the guy's strengths while doling out (very justifiable) criticism.

 

I think I qualified my statement with "the handling pitchers" aspect of the game. The declining CS%, the passed balls, etc. seem to indicate declining defense. Your claim is that he IS a PREMIUM defensive catcher. He may HAVE BEEN a premium defensive catcher (2010), but I certainly do not think he is one currently.

 

The Twins are not clueless morons, but they may be, you know, slightly mistaken about the defensive value of Drew Butera. I have said this before, but if there were only a way to just sign this guy long term for a few hundred thousand to just be an organizational catcher floating around where the best prospect pitchers are that would be fantastic.

[Turd Furgeson]

Is it possible that Benson's struggles were caused by the Twins trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and change his approach at the plate to fit the "Twins way"?

Probably not, I know, but I couldn't help but think of this when I read the Gomez comments, and was reminded of the Hardy and Ortiz comments.

 

Perhaps he goes to Texas and is told, "kid, stop trying to hit the ball the other way and just let 'er rip".

Who knows if this will change his performance, but at this point it honestly would not shock me if it did.

 

Hitting the ball to all fields is a good approach to hitting. I don't know that the Twins have actually ever said, "don't pull the ball, ever!" but a lot of people seem to think that's the case. Honestly, the vast majority of success or failure is on the part of the player. Whether that be their athletic inability, their mental makeup, their poise, it doesn't matter. Coaching helps, sure but I don't believe it's the tipping point for whether hitters succeed or fail.

 

Joe Benson may have felt pretty helpless in this organization after a bad start and then seeing that the Twins have a lot of other outfield talent. That could have been affecting his approach to his at bats. I think there have always been questions about his swing and miss.

 

Success and Failure Rates of Top MLB Prospects - Royals Review

 

That has a pretty good breakdown of prospect failure and success rates. Benson was a fringy top 100 prospect, those guys fail a lot. They are on the top 100 because they have some tools and have shown something in games.

[golfboy1]

I never thought I'd see 11 pages about Benson being waived but WTF, I might as well add my 2 cents worth.

 

In a vacuum, losing Benson is no big deal (it's less of a big deal than the Twins losing Alex Burnett this spring). BUT, the Twins have ZERO CF behind a guy hitting .150 & they have several other players "worthy" of being waived.

 

Odds are, Benson will continue to suck & with no more options he would have been lost next spring anyway. Where the Twins %!#$@ up is not having any options for Hicks. They should/could have traded Benson to Texas for Borbon since Texas ended up giving him away. I'd much rather have Borbon, long & short term than Benson.

 

I'm guessing the Twins figured it was better for Benson to get a fresh start & just get him out of the orginization. Otherwise, it seems like *Son of Sal* should have been waived.

[Shane Wahl]

I guess I just am not clear about this MN OF situation. I see two guys, Hicks and Arcia, as playing the OF next year. Willingham MUST be traded and either Morneau or Parmelee will be at first with the other likely just gone. Seems like Benson competing with Danny Ortiz would have been a good thing. They could have actually platooned in LF or RF.

[cmathewson]

I guess I just am not clear about this MN OF situation. I see two guys, Hicks and Arcia, as playing the OF next year. Willingham MUST be traded and either Morneau or Parmelee will be at first with the other likely just gone. Seems like Benson competing with Danny Ortiz would have been a good thing. They could have actually platooned in LF or RF.

 

Benson is a AA player. There are plenty of AAAA players available if they want to let a cheap bat like Willingham go for the pittance they will receive for him in players. Also, Parmelee and Matroianni deserve to be mentioned as possibilities.

[golfboy1]

I guess I just am not clear about this MN OF situation. I see two guys, Hicks and Arcia, as playing the OF next year. Willingham MUST be traded and either Morneau or Parmelee will be at first with the other likely just gone. Seems like Benson competing with Danny Ortiz would have been a good thing. They could have actually platooned in LF or RF.

 

I agree about Hicks & Arcia (hopefully they play well enough). If they get a good offer for Willingham they should trade him.

 

I don't see where Benson or Ortiz rate that highly. Parmelee might still be around for RF plus Douhmit, Ramirez, Mastroianni & Colabello are likely ahead of Benson or Ortiz.

[Shane Wahl]

So let's run through these:

 

-Arcia-Hicks-Parmelee (ok, not a great defense at all, and a question in RF offensively, and this assumes someone else is around next year to play 1B)

-Arcia-Hicks-Doumit or Colabello (not real RF at all)

-Arcia-Hicks-Ramirez (Ramirez as a starter? Yikes)

-Arcia-Hicks-Mastro (Mastro as a starter? yikes)

 

Danny Ortiz has actually improved his numbers WITH the move up this year to AA. That is encouraging. And Benson got away and his smacking a homer a game at the moment.

 

The point is that the Twins have now gotten rid of Span, Revere, and Benson with Aaron Hicks having a very slow adjustment time to big league baseball. I thought that the CF position was to be valued?

[Nick Nelson]

The Twins are not clueless morons, but they may be, you know, slightly mistaken about the defensive value of Drew Butera.

 

They may be. But when you're basing your argument on his CS% and passed ball numbers compiled in a limited sample size while working with a preposterously bad pitching staff, perhaps we can acknowledge that they may have better insight on the matter? That's not meant as a dig, but the fact is that there really aren't any great metrics for evaluating catcher defense, especially when we're talking about a sample of 135 total games over the last two years.

[TheLeviathan]

Benson is a AA player.

 

I don't think that's clear yet. I personally don't get the argument that "he's hit three homeruns...we really screwed up!" The mistake with Benson has little to do with his future - whether he becomes a career AA player or a future all-star - it was about value. The Twins have had a 6-7 year run now of being woefully inept at maximizing value.

 

Not cutting Hermson or Butera over Benson is another example of this. Benson needed a change of scenery, but it didn't need to happen now and in this way over far better options for waivers. That's the mistake IMO.