Is it time to call the Red Sox?

[Oxtung]

Agreed. I don't understand why every other thread degrades into "Twins are cheap' date=' derp derp!11!!"

Trading Mauer now makes no sense. The only thing that makes less sense is pre-emptively bitching that the Twins wouldn't spend the mythical savings the right way. It sucks that they're losing now, but it's not exactly unexpected.[/quote']

 

So you don't like threads that delve into the payroll and yet you bring the payroll up? Then the Twins losing was to be expected except we shouldn't have been bitching about it? Trading Mauer makes no sense but keeping him on a team that is going no where for several seasons at which point Mauer likely will be tailing off is good?

 

Seems to me like you are not really sure what you think.

[kab21]

A Mauer trade wouldn't be just about saving money, although I'm not naive enough to think that the Pohlad's wouldn't love to pocket that money, but a significant part of the trade would be the prospects received in return. For better or worse this team is going to sink or swim in the future based on it's prospects. The odds of a good team in 2016 increase with every prospect we can acquire. You can never have enough good prospects.

 

On the other hand by the time 2016 rolls around and the Twins might actually be playing playoff baseball Mauer will be 33. I haven't looked this up but I would guess there aren't many catchers that are still good players let alone elite by the time they turn 33.

 

The problem is that many clubs will use Mauer's age and contract as a big negative and the Twins would be more likely to get a pair of top 100 prospects (not elite prospects) and a couple of lower level guys for him. I don't think a club is going to back up the prospect truck for Mauer and that's the only way that you trade him.

[jokin]

A Mauer trade wouldn't be just about saving money, although I'm not naive enough to think that the Pohlad's wouldn't love to pocket that money, but a significant part of the trade would be the prospects received in return. For better or worse this team is going to sink or swim in the future based on it's prospects. The odds of a good team in 2016 increase with every prospect we can acquire. You can never have enough good prospects.

 

On the other hand by the time 2016 rolls around and the Twins might actually be playing playoff baseball Mauer will be 33. I haven't looked this up but I would guess there aren't many catchers that are still good players let alone elite by the time they turn 33.

 

One HOFers did for sure. Carlton Fisk.

[launchingthrees]

Agreed. I don't understand why every other thread degrades into "Twins are cheap' date=' derp derp!11!!"

[/quote']

 

Because the Twins pay a significantly lower % of revenue than average. I'm not sure how you define cheap but % of revenue seems fair. BUT WHEN WE GET THE NEW STADIUM WE CAN INCREASE REVENUE. Sure sure

[Pius Jefferson]

What would be the point of the Twins either eating salary and getting better prospects or taking lesser prospects and not getting nearly the deserved return for an All-Star player?

[diehardtwinsfan]

Boston: Hey Terry, what do you want for Joe Mauer?

 

Minnesota: Bogarts, Barnes, Lavernaway, Coyles, and Ranaudo.

 

Boston: long period of silence.... Really?

 

Minnesota: For those guys, I might be kind enough to eat about $20M of his contract.

 

Boston: Never mind.

 

That's about how this conversation would (and should I might add) go.

[Twins Twerp]

Did tony gwynn get traded when his team sucked? Did ripkin get traded? These type of players dont get traded. Mauer is a first ballot, top 5 catching HOF. I dont get the "I am not a big mauer fan" guys. Why not? Because he doesnt hit 20 bombs and strikeout alot? Maybe we should trade him for adam dunn?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'm not one of the anti-Mauer people to be clear, though I would be in favor of trading him in the right circumstances. The trade I joked about in the previous post is what I think would make it worthwhile, but I also think Boston would be incredibly desperate to even be considering such a trade (and this doesn't take account for the NTC), and would be foolish to execute it. The Twins, on the other hand, shouldn't trade him for less.

 

Truth be told, in Mauer we have the following:

 

1) Hometown guy with marketing capabilities that are non-existent elsewhere.

2) First ballot HOF in the making that will retire with his team

3) Incredible production both offensively and defensively from a guy in his prime at a position where it's hard to find that kind of production. Mauer would be a massive upgrade at C to just about any contending team. His production at C is one of the big reasons why the Twins could get away with substandard production at the bottom of their order for a number of years on contending teams.

4) One big reason why target field was financed.

 

The backlash on trading him, even for the scenario I mentioned earlier would be immense. I'd argue that would be what it would take in order to make it worth while, as it contains 2 middle infielders, 2 pitchers, and a replacement catcher. The 2016 team would now have some depth at those key positions so if/when certain prospects fail, there would be others to take their place.

 

But back to reality, I don't see it happening. There's no way he should be traded for anything other than a truckload of prospects. It's fun to wonder "what if", but this is nothing but a Vervehound fantasy.

[ThePuck]

I dont get the "I am not a big mauer fan" guys. Why not?

 

This...it boggles my mind. I mean, he's not my favorite player in baseball (Tulo) or on the team (Morny), but I don't get not being a fan of his.

 

I know one Twins fans whose sole purpose, it seems, is to go looking for good things said about Mauer so he can slam them. All the things wrong with this team, and yet he focuses on what MAUER doesn't do. He's one of those that thinks the new contract should have morphed him into the type of player he isn't. He's also one of those people who claims to know so much about the game, but couldn't figure out that Mauer's 2009 was just one of those seasons that was never going to be repeated....so he complains and complains about Mauer's contract and how he's not the kind of player he thinks he should be instead of marveling at the fact we have a player like him on our team. He's already said Mauer has practically no chance to make the HOF. Went ballistic when someone suggested he's a first ballot HOF.

[old nurse]

Agreed. I don't understand why every other thread degrades into "Twins are cheap' date=' derp derp!11!!"

.[/quote']

Because the other threads degrade to Gardy sucks or pitch to contact is the problem.

[old nurse]

One HOFers did for sure. Carlton Fisk.

Roy Campenella, Gary Carter, Bill Dickey, Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra. Now they were all pretty much done by 35, but they were all still pretty good at 33.

[kab21]

Because the Twins pay a significantly lower % of revenue than average. I'm not sure how you define cheap but % of revenue seems fair. BUT WHEN WE GET THE NEW STADIUM WE CAN INCREASE REVENUE. Sure sure

 

Still not quite understanding how rebuilding works do you? Or that younger players are cheaper than older players?

[Oldgoat_MN]

....

 

On the other hand by the time 2016 rolls around and the Twins might actually be playing playoff baseball Mauer will be 33. I haven't looked this up but I would guess there aren't many catchers that are still good players let alone elite by the time they turn 33.

 

Yogi Berra caught regularly until he was 38.

Johnny Bench caught regularly until he was 35.

Jose Molina caught regularly last year when he was 37.

Bengie Molina caught regularly until he was 35.

Ivan Rodriguez caught regularly until he was 38.

Carlton Fisk caught until he was 107.

 

Most of these guys, as good as they are, really aren’t quite the all-around athletes that Joe Mauer is. Mauer plays 1B, DH, and has played RF. He can get more rest than some catchers and still stay in the lineup.

 

Also, it has been stated here well enough that I don't have to say anymore, but I agree with those who say trading Mauer is not going to happen. Nor should it.

 

And another thing: Mauer may not be a first ballot HOF, but barring a huge scandal or complete collapse he will be in the HOF someday. Funny how people get annoyed with a guy they see all the time, forgetting that he is one of the elite hitters in MLB.

[Mr. Brooks]

Yogi Berra caught regularly until he was 38.

Johnny Bench caught regularly until he was 35.

Jose Molina caught regularly last year when he was 37.

Bengie Molina caught regularly until he was 35.

Ivan Rodriguez caught regularly until he was 38.

Carlton Fisk caught until he was 107.

 

Most of these guys, as good as they are, really aren’t quite the all-around athletes that Joe Mauer is. Mauer plays 1B, DH, and has played RF. He can get more rest than some catchers and still stay in the lineup.

 

Also, it has been stated here well enough that I don't have to say anymore, but I agree with those who say trading Mauer is not going to happen. Nor should it.

 

And another thing: Mauer may not be a first ballot HOF, but barring a huge scandal or complete collapse he will be in the HOF someday. Funny how people get annoyed with a guy they see all the time, forgetting that he is one of the elite hitters in MLB.

 

If he stays healthy he will be an absolute no doubter first ballot HOF'er, and will be as close to unanimous as is possible (some voters wont vote for anyone first ballot.)

[John Bonnes]

The way I would choose to think about this question is this way: would I want the Twins trade Mauer if he was made $1M/year? Because I have no faith the Twins are going to turn that $23 million into any real assets, at least not in the near future.

 

And the answer to that is no.

[Mr. Brooks]

The way I would choose to think about this question is this way: would I want the Twins trade Mauer if he was made $1M/year? Because I have no faith the Twins are going to turn that $23 million into any real assets, at least not in the near future.

 

 

 

And the answer to that is no.

Spot on.

Mauer is literally the least of our problems right now.

Just think how much more awful this team would be without him.

The ONLY remotely reasonable argument for trading him is the flexibility his contract would give us, but as you (and others) have pointed out, Ryan basically left the equivalent of Mauer's salary on the table the way it is, so there is no reason to believe that he would actually spend any of that money.

[StormJH1]

Yeah, this point gets missed a lot, and frankly, I think us "armchair GM's" are wrong to dismiss its importance. The Twins are a business, and also a part of the local identity. Trading Joe off this team would basically gut the core identity of this team. The immediate fan reaction would be "wait, what did he do wrong?" (Nothing) -> "well, what MLB players did you get back for him" (no impressive ones) -> "okay then, i'm done with this 90-loss team". There would be a mass exodus of fans away from the turnstiles. I sincerely believe this.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

So you don't like threads that delve into the payroll and yet you bring the payroll up? Then the Twins losing was to be expected except we shouldn't have been bitching about it? Trading Mauer makes no sense but keeping him on a team that is going no where for several seasons at which point Mauer likely will be tailing off is good?

 

Seems to me like you are not really sure what you think.

1. There is a difference between payroll discussion and petulant whining.

 

2. Expecting a team coming off two 90 loss seasons to be substantially better is not reasonable, no matter how much money spent in free agency. Not that I'd want them to so foolishly waste resources on said 90 loss team.

 

3. I don't assume Mauer will fall off substantially in 2 years. He's the best hitter I've ever seen.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

Also when you have a guy who will go into the hall wearing your hat (and is a home town kid to boot) who is still in his prime, you absolutely do not trade him.

Yeah, what's the point of trading the most recognizable player you have?

[ThePuck]

1. There is a difference between payroll discussion and petulant whining.

 

2. Expecting a team coming off two 90 loss seasons to be substantially better is not reasonable' date=' no matter how much money spent in free agency. Not that I'd want them to so foolishly waste resources on said 90 loss team.

 

3. I don't assume Mauer will fall off substantially in 2 years. He's the best hitter I've ever seen.[/quote']

 

There's nothing that says if the money was spent, it would have been spent foolishly...even if it was, the alternative is the money goes into the bank and isn't used later in payroll anyway. It's not like it's saved up for later. As a fan, both options are about equal....actually, scratch that, making the attempt is preferable, cause the alternative has no chance of making the team better.

[Top Gun]

Rangers claimed OF Joe Benson off waivers from the Twins

[Oxtung]

Just to be clear I have no problem with Mauer. I think he is a great player. I'm not even sure I would trade him as a GM. I do think a trade will not happen both because I think the Twins would never do it and because I think Joe would veto it.

 

However as a purely academic discussion I think this issue is not as black and white as people are portraying it. There are reasons to keep him. Fan support being the biggest. There are also reasons to trade him, none of which have to do with money since big FA spending isn't in the plans of this franchise. If you're building a team strictly through your minor league talent, or trades of current players who once were your minor league talent, then you need as many pieces as you can get and hope that enough of them pan out to bring you back to relevancy. Joe would bring back a significant set of prospects. Who those prospects are clearly is important. IMO I don't think he is worth as much, either to the Twins or other teams, as has been thrown around in this thread.

 

The alternative is you hold onto a player that will be entering his decline phase when this team might be getting good. Father time doesn't care that he plays for the Twins or used to be a premier athlete or has a pretty swing. He plays the most physically demanding position in baseball. While it is possible that he remains productive throughout his contract the odds are vastly against him.

 

So to sum up quickly:

1) I like Mauer as a player.

2) I don't think a trade will happen so this is purely academic.

3) There are legitimate reasons to trade him.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Rangers claimed OF Joe Benson off waivers from the Twins

 

What does this have to do with trading Mauer to Boston?

[dwintheiser]

1. There is a difference between payroll discussion and petulant whining.

 

Agreed.

 

2. Expecting a team coming off two 90 loss seasons to be substantially better is not reasonable' date=' no matter how much money spent in free agency. Not that I'd want them to so foolishly waste resources on said 90 loss team.[/quote']

 

Absolutely disagree. The Indians lost 90 two years in a row (in 2009 & 2010), then got to .500 in 2011. The Mariners lost over 90 in 2004 and 2005 before improving in 2006 and nearly winning 90 in 2007. The Tigers have bounced back from horrible seasons, as have the Orioles. You'll find more such teams in the NL if you look. (Washington, anyone?)

 

When you say it's not reasonable to expect significant improvement from a two-time 90-loss team, it seems to me that you're focusing on teams like the Astros, who don't seem to be making any effort to get better, and that it's OK for the Twins to do so as well.

 

That's where a lot of the 'petulant whining' comes from - the front office makes plenty of noise about working hard and doing what they have to do to get better, then they go get a bunch of bargain-basement journeymen and hope for a miracle. It shouldn't be at all surprising that some fans are pissed off by this, and their lack of sophistication in putting those feelings into words doesn't mean those feelings are unjustified.

 

3. I don't assume Mauer will fall off substantially in 2 years. He's the best hitter I've ever seen.

 

For someone with Mauer's contract and position on the team, being a great hitter isn't enough. He's also got to be a team leader, help make other players around him better, handle the pitching staff. There may well be a reason that a veteran pitcher like Carl Pavano wanted Butera as his catcher, and it may be related to the rotation's struggles over the last few years.

 

The Keltner List asks, "If this player were the best player on his team, is it likely that team would win the pennant?" One could make the argument that Mauer has never actually been the best player on a division-winning Twins team, that the teams on which Mauer has demonstrably been the best player have been bad teams, and thus that the answer to that question should be 'no'. Harold Reynolds may vastly overestimate the value of 'intangibles' to a player's and ballclub's success, but the longer Mauer's career goes on, the more I am convinced that intangibles do matter, and that Mauer's are very poor.

[ThePuck]

For someone with Mauer's contract and position on the team, being a great hitter isn't enough. He's also got to be a team leader, help make other players around him better, handle the pitching staff. There may well be a reason that a veteran pitcher like Carl Pavano wanted Butera as his catcher, and it may be related to the rotation's struggles over the last few years.

 

The Keltner List asks, "If this player were the best player on his team, is it likely that team would win the pennant?" One could make the argument that Mauer has never actually been the best player on a division-winning Twins team, that the teams on which Mauer has demonstrably been the best player have been bad teams, and thus that the answer to that question should be 'no'. Harold Reynolds may vastly overestimate the value of 'intangibles' to a player's and ballclub's success, but the longer Mauer's career goes on, the more I am convinced that intangibles do matter, and that Mauer's are very poor.

 

Hey, what's it like in the locker room and in team meetings? You have such a grasp on how he is with pitchers and what kind of leader he is based on....what?

 

How is it that one player is responsible for the lack of talent on a team? How is one player going to make this team a contender...magically give these players way more talent than they have? These guys are professionals who have played the game probably their whole lives. I'd like to think he leads by example in the way he goes about playing the game.

[TheLeviathan]

What does this have to do with trading Mauer to Boston?

 

In other Top Gun related news....today is Saturday. And there is a Game 3 in the NBA tonight. And pickles are tasty.

 

That is all....for now.

[spideyo]

To be perfectly honest, it is in the best interest of Major League Baseball for Mauer to retire as a Twin.

 

Seriously, he is the ideal Baseball Hero. High School Sports Hero. drafted right out of high school #1 overall by his hometown team, a team that was threatened by contraction and had spent a decade at the bottom of the standings. His joining the team coincided with a return to relevance, and a string of division titles (Hollywood will ignore the fact that the playoff wins started before Mauer made it to the bigs). He burst on to the national stage with batting titles, gold gloves, and an MVP, all the while still having his mom answer his fan mail. He married a girl from high school, who is now pregnant with Twins.

 

Seriously, this is EXACTLY the guy they want to be the Face of Baseball, not some of these guys holding out for massive contracts, causing clubhouse problems, juicing up, etc. What better ending to this story than that he retires as a Twin and spends the rest of his life working for this team?

[kab21]

Mauer's defense has fallen off but I think it's a little unfair to place any blame on him as the reason for how bad the pitching staff has been. The pitching staff is bad because they don't have a lot of talent and the Twins must be one of the worst defensive teams in baseball.

[Benchwarmerjim]

Joe Mauer gets traded and Drew Butera is now your starting catcher for the next 5 years