Walters

[Guest USAFChief]

Uhh, he just saved the bullpen in Roc. with a recent 9 inning game, followed in the start after next with a near-no-hit 9 inning game. Another poor excuse by the Twins if they are indeed following this line of rhetoric.

 

Not to mention, every team would like their starters to go 6+ every time out. It's not realistic.

 

And it's especially not realistic when you have the starters the Twins do. Who do they have that's consistently giving 'em six innings?

[diehardtwinsfan]

It seems to me you can believe one of two things about Gibson:

 

1. He's one of the best 8 starters available to the Twins right now (Deduno and Walters will be starter numbers 7 and 8 on the season). Therefore, the reason he's not pitching for the Twins right now has to do with controlling money and/or service time, rather than ability.

 

2. He's not one of the best 8 starters currently available to the Twins, which is why he's not pitching in the majors. If you believe that, then I hope you're not one of the people claiming that signing good FAs this past winter would have "blocked" talent. I also hope you're not one of the people claiming Gibson will be leading a talented Twins staff as soon as 2014.

 

I don't see how it can be both. Either he's worse than the dreck that's populated the 2013 rotation, or the Twins are playing funny games with him.

 

I'm not necessarily certain it's either...

[Joe A. Preusser]

I'd love to hear their rationale for the basis of that belief.

 

Maybe their just handling him with kid gloves because he is certifiably injury prone? Again, I've said already that I'm salivating to see Gibson called up, but is it really a live or die decision that needs to be dissected if the team calls up Walters first?

[Guest USAFChief]

I'm not necessarily certain it's either...

What other rationale is there?

[jokin]

They actually went above slot by around $600k for Gibson. He was considered advanced but not major league ready necessarily (aside from the injury). And I don't know what slow playing Tommy John with a prospect means.

 

As far as being in the rotation for other teams, that would depend on specific situations. The bigger point is he should be in the Twins rotation right now.

 

Above slot strenghtens the case I orginally made, if in fact what you say is true. For such a prized prospect, his career has been bungled by the Twins from the outset. Shut down in August, despite Gibson complaining about arm trouble all year, surgery then delayed to November, seems to have been more than ready last year, followed by a strong AFL season, yet still not ready to debut? That's what I call slow-playing.

[PseudoSABR]

It seems to me you can believe one of two things about Gibson:

 

1. He's one of the best 8 starters available to the Twins right now (Deduno and Walters will be starter numbers 7 and 8 on the season). Therefore, the reason he's not pitching for the Twins right now has to do with controlling money and/or service time, rather than ability.

 

2. He's not one of the best 8 starters currently available to the Twins, which is why he's not pitching in the majors. If you believe that, then I hope you're not one of the people claiming that signing good FAs this past winter would have "blocked" talent. I also hope you're not one of the people claiming Gibson will be leading a talented Twins staff as soon as 2014.

 

I don't see how it can be both. Either he's worse than the dreck that's populated the 2013 rotation, or the Twins are playing funny games with him.

3. The Twins realize the Gibson is better than the other options, but there are things he can work at AAA while they look at some other pitchers in the organization, seeing if Walters, Deduno, De Vries, Hernandez can contribute in the future and are worth a roster spot.

[jokin]

Maybe their just handling him with kid gloves because he is certifiably injury prone? Again, I've said already that I'm salivating to see Gibson called up, but is it really a live or die decision that needs to be dissected if the team calls up Walters first?

 

Huh? Handling him with kid gloves? By allowing him to throw 114 pitches in one complete game, followed two games later with another complete game? Doesn't sound like this one will wash.

[jokin]

3. The Twins realize the Gibson is better than the other options, but there are things he can work at AAA while they look at some other pitchers in the organization, seeing if Walters, Deduno, De Vries, Hernandez can contribute in the future and are worth a roster spot.

 

These are the things, at near age 26, you want your best prospect, not your best suspects, to work on in the major leagues in a season they obviously have already punted- especially a prospect on an innings limit.

[Guest USAFChief]

3. The Twins realize the Gibson is better than the other options, but there are things he can work at AAA while they look at some other pitchers in the organization, seeing if Walters, Deduno, De Vries, Hernandez can contribute in the future and are worth a roster spot.

 

I would say that would be another possible explanation under number 1, "He's one of their best 8 starters," and the reason he's not up is not due to ability. By your reasoning, then you also have to believe that the Twins long ago punted on the 2013 season, and everything Ryan said to the contrary over the winter was BS.

 

IMO, though, your line of reasoning doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, since they've already seen all four of those future "contributers" at the major league level, including Hernandez having a shot this season, and nobody in their right mind thinks Walters or DeVries has much of a shot at being anything more than AAAA depth on a good team.

 

But we'll go with your addition, and add "or are publicly admitting they long ago gave up on 2013" to the end of my item #1.

[drjim]

Above slot strenghtens the case I orginally made, if in fact what you say is true. For such a prized prospect, his career has been bungled by the Twins from the outset. Shut down in August, despite Gibson complaining about arm trouble all year, surgery then delayed to November, seems to have been more than ready last year, followed by a strong AFL season, yet still not ready to debut? That's what I call slow-playing.

 

I would agree he should have been the call up right now. I don't agree with any part of your premise that he was mishandled or the Twins bungled up until about a week ago. Calling him up a month late because of financial reasons is many things, but I wouldn't call it slow playing.

 

And I would like to see documentation that he was complaining of arm trouble all year before his surgery. I don't remember that at all.

[drjim]

I would say that would be another possible explanation under number 1, "He's one of their best 8 starters," and the reason he's not up is not due to ability. By your reasoning, then you also have to believe that the Twins long ago punted on the 2013 season, and everything Ryan said to the contrary over the winter was BS.

 

IMO, though, your line of reasoning doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, since they've already seen all four of those future "contributers" at the major league level, including Hernandez having a shot this season, and nobody in their right mind thinks Walters or DeVries has much of a shot at being anything more than AAAA depth on a good team.

 

But we'll go with your addition, and add "or are publicly admitting they long ago gave up on 2013" to the end of my item #1.

 

I think this has always been the case. They might have hoped for a miracle but I can't believe Ryan has any realistic notion they were going to compete (and he shouldn't have had one, this was a rebuilding year).

 

That said - Gibson should still have been called up.

[Oxtung]

Uhh, he just saved the bullpen in Roc. with a recent 9 inning game, followed in the start after next with a near-no-hit 9 inning game. Another poor excuse by the Twins if they are indeed following this line of rhetoric.

 

Of course he also went 4 innings and 3 innings preceding those 2 starts....

 

Of his 9 starts this year 3 have been less than 5 innings. It's not like he's been just straight up dominating. He has been mixing good start with bad start. It's literally every other.

 

If the Twins truly prize pitchers who go deep into ball games like their rhetoric implies then it's no surprise that they haven't called him up yet.

 

On the other hand PJ Walters has pitched 7 straight games with >6IP. He has also given up 3 or less runs in his last 6 starts.

 

This isn't black and white like you want it to be. PJ has pitched very well for Rochester this year.

[stringer bell]

I thought Gibson should have been recalled after Hernandez got rocked in Boston (the 15-8 win). I have said for a while that prospects like Gibson get handled differently than surprise success stories like Colabello and Thielbar and suspects like Walters, De Vries and (in most respects) Deduno. Chief is saying that either Gibson is one of the top eight starters and isn't here only for financial/control reasons or that he's not that good right now. I maintain that since Gibson is a PROSPECT, the Twins are treating him differently. They want his first promotion to be his only promotion and they want him fully ready to pitch in the majors and do well if not thrive. I think they are mistaken, but I can see that prospects just are treated differently.

[old nurse]

Not to do any self-back-patting here, but this was an all-too-predictable move, right out of their worn and tattered playbook.

 

Meanwhile, other organizations have their prized players pitching as soon as possible, Bundy and Gausman in the case of the Orioles, we know all about the Nationals and Rays, even Porcello in the case of the Tigers (5 year veteran at age 24- yes Gibson had TJ, but he appears to be far beyond that surgery- Gibson at 25 is actually 14 months OLDER than Porcello- both drafted late in the First Round of their respective drafts, 2 years apart).

In regards to Porcello, I thought you did not like below average in terms of strikeouts above average ground ball pitchers.

[jokin]

Of course he also went 4 innings and 3 innings preceding those 2 starts....

 

Of his 9 starts this year 3 have been less than 5 innings. It's not like he's been just straight up dominating. He has been mixing good start with bad start. It's literally every other.

 

If the Twins truly prize pitchers who go deep into ball games like their rhetoric implies then it's no surprise that they haven't called him up yet.

 

On the other hand PJ Walters has pitched 7 straight games with >6IP. He has also given up 3 or less runs in his last 6 starts.

 

This isn't black and white like you want it to be. PJ has pitched very well for Rochester this year.

 

Not bashing PJ here. I was the one who was all by myself saying that PJ has virtually matched Gibson's stats and would be the one that the Twins would call up. I'm just saying that Gibson should have been in the rotation before now. With this dreadful pitching staff in a lost year, there's really no reason to hold him back, except financial.

[jokin]

In regards to Porcello, I thought you did not like below average in terms of strikeouts above average ground ball pitchers.

 

In a previous post I said that Porcello has turned out to be a #5 starter, yet he has still hung in there in the Tigers rotation, something I'd like for the Twins to do with Gibson to find out what they have, instead of putting it off for contrived reasons.

[jokin]

I would agree he should have been the call up right now. I don't agree with any part of your premise that he was mishandled or the Twins bungled up until about a week ago. Calling him up a month late because of financial reasons is many things, but I wouldn't call it slow playing.

 

And I would like to see documentation that he was complaining of arm trouble all year before his surgery. I don't remember that at all.

 

If not calling up a guy who is clearly better than a series of broken-down arms, including Hendriks, who it turned out was also pitching injured--- and Pedro Hernandez---for heaven's sake---- isn't "slow-playing" than I don't know what is.

 

This was an issue that was dealt with by the media in the "Twins Notes" type of reporting as part of Twins updates at the ends of articles throughout 2011 in explanation of his poor performances leading up to his shutdown.

[Oxtung]

If not calling up a guy who is clearly better than a series of broken-down arms, including Hendriks, who it turned out was also pitching injured--- and Pedro Hernandez---for heaven's sake---- isn't "slow-playing" than I don't know what is.

 

This was an issue that was dealt with by the media in the "Twins Notes" type of reporting as part of Twins updates at the ends of articles throughout 2011 in explanation of his poor performances leading up to his shutdown.

 

The Twins value different attributes than you do. You are willfully ignoring that at this point. Gibson has not been a stud at AAA. He hasn't even been better than Walters. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Guest USAFChief]

Add "Joe Benson" as a cost of bringing up Walters instead of Gibson.

[Mr. Brooks]

Add "Joe Benson" as a cost of bringing up Walters instead of Gibson.

 

Gibson needs to be more consistent, like Sam Deduno, the model of a consistent pitcher.

[Guest USAFChief]

Gibson needs to be more consistent, like Sam Deduno, the model of a consistent pitcher.

 

If consistency is the goal, why did they send Worley down? He was nothing if not consistent.

[twinsnorth49]

If anyone truly believes Gibson not being up here right now isn't about service time, well I have some Twins-Astros tix in section 334, row 16 for a cool $100 a pair.

 

On so many levels it's ludicrous he's not part of this rotation right now, shame on Ryan.

[TheLeviathan]

Part of me thinks that Gibson's performance last night may have actually disappointed the Twins to some degree. Now they really have to turn up the rhetoric to guard themselves from the money/service time issue.

 

I realize how bitter and pessimistic that seems, but damn, I kinda think Ryan was secretly rooting for a 5 inning, 3 run performance. Just to fit the narrative better for a couple more weeks.

[Oxtung]

OK this is getting a bit absurd. Kyle Gibson might have better stuff than Walters. He might be a bigger part of the future. He might be Superman in disguise but there were legitimate reasons to call up Walters instead.

 

This was pointed out in another thread by Seth Stohs:

 

Gibson's odd starts: 35.2IP, 4ER, 0.50ERA, 17H, 32K

Gibson's even starts: 17IP, 17ER, 9.00ERA, 29H, 14K

 

He was absolutely dominant in his odd starts but in his even starts he was dominated. The odd start Gibson screams, "promote me!!!" where as the even start Gibson screams, "I need help!!!". It is not unreasonable for the Twins to wait to see which Gibson is the real Gibson.

 

On the other hand Walters had put together 6 straight starts with >6IP and a 2.06ERA. He had been pitching great.

[jokin]

OK this is getting a bit absurd. Kyle Gibson might have better stuff than Walters. He might be a bigger part of the future. He might be Superman in disguise but there were legitimate reasons to call up Walters instead.

 

This was pointed out in another thread by Seth Stohs:

 

Gibson's odd starts: 35.2IP, 4ER, 0.50ERA, 17H, 32K

Gibson's even starts: 17IP, 17ER, 9.00ERA, 29H, 14K

 

He was absolutely dominant in his odd starts but in his even starts he was dominated. The odd start Gibson screams, "promote me!!!" where as the even start Gibson screams, "I need help!!!". It is not unreasonable for the Twins to wait to see which Gibson is the real Gibson.

 

On the other hand Walters had put together 6 straight starts with >6IP and a 2.06ERA. He had been pitching great.

 

I have been on board with Big Train Walters and have been his earliest and biggest advocate for call-up.

 

And yet with the odd/even situation, Gibson still stands out in the entire I-League, he has a 2.72 FIP (4th), a 1.07 WHIP (4th), 0.30 HR/9 (5th) 22.5 % K% (9th), OBA of .219 (10th). He's not been prone to wildness, he has a very respectable BB rate of 2.52, coupled with a K/BB rate that is virtually Top Ten at 3.12 (w/in .03 of #10), he hasn't hit a batter and has 1 WP in 60.2 IP.

 

These are strong pitching numbers and would lead one to submit that Gibson has also pitched great- No, check that, these are Freaking. Great. Numbers., and this is with half his games supposedly in the "I need help!" range??? Up until the game last night, his BABIP was around .330. While some of his alleged struggles can be attributed to rust and restoring the muscle memory necessary in relearning how to pitch, I have to attribute at least some of his odd/even slash differential to luck and playing in minor league parks with a minor league defense, that includes Jeff Clement, Chris Colabello, Oswaldo Arcia and some of the other suspect journeyman. I'd also like to see who the catcher was for the majority of his "bad" outings.

[Mr. Brooks]

Perhaps if people feel so strongly about PJ, it should have been PJ and Gibson, with Deduno not coming up?

Either way, Gibson should have been 1 of the 2 called up.

He's going to be up in 2 weeks anyways, are they really telling us that he can learn that much over the next 2 weeks at AAA?

[TheLeviathan]

On the other hand Walters had put together 6 straight starts with >6IP and a 2.06ERA. He had been pitching great.

 

So call up all three (Walters, Deduno, and Gibson) None of this is a slight on Walters, it's that Gibson's innings limit, coupled with his talent, coupled with most of his recent performances, coupled with the putrid major league pitching are all strong reasons to promote him.

 

The "consistency" nonsense is just an excuse for Super 2. Nothing more.

[Oxtung]

I have been on board with Big Train Walters and have been his biggest advocate for call-up.

 

And yet with the odd/even situation, Gibson still stands out in the entire I-League, he has a 2.72 FIP (4th), a 1.07 WHIP (4th), 0.30 HR/9 (5th) 22.5 % K% (9th), OBA of .219 (10th). He's not been prone to wildness, he has a very respectable BB rate of 2.52, coupled with a K/BB rate that is virtually Top Ten at 3.12 (w/in .03 of #10), he hasn't hit a batter and has 1 WP in 60.2 IP.

 

These are strong pitching numbers and would lead one to submit that Gibson has also pitched great- No, check that, these are Freaking. Great. Numbers., and this is with half his games supposedly in the "I need help!" range??? Up until the game last night, his BABIP was around .330. While some of his alleged struggles can be attributed to rust and restoring the muscle memory necessary in relearning how to pitch, I have to attribute at least some of his odd/even slash differential to luck and playing in minor league parks with a minor league defense, that includes Jeff Clement, Chris Colabello, Oswaldo Arcia and some of the other suspect journeyman. I'd also like to see who the catcher was for the majority of his "bad" outings.

 

Everybody agrees that Gibson has put up some great starts. He has also put up some real clunkers. It is literally every other (up until last night at least). I certainly would have been OK with Gibson getting the call rather than Walters.

 

My point is that this isn't clear cut. People have been hammering the Twins for their "consistency" comment when that is a legitimate position to take.

[jokin]

Everybody agrees that Gibson has put up some great starts. He has also put up some real clunkers. It is literally every other (up until last night at least). I certainly would have been OK with Gibson getting the call rather than Walters.

 

My point is that this isn't clear cut. People have been hammering the Twins for their "consistency" comment when that is a legitimate position to take.

 

And yet, the entire major league Twins rotation provides overwhelming clear-cut counter-evidence about how important "consistency" actually is valued, which belies the entire whiff of "legitimacy" of the FO in holding said position on Gibson.

[fairweather]

Oh my god you people are beating this to death. We all want to see Gibson and he'll be up soon. He hasn't been that consistent. There's no conspiracy here about super 2 status. Now that he's had 3 out of his last 4 starts look great he'll be up as soon as Pelfrey or Deduno has another clunker. Gardy's had with the most of these guys already. Correia isn't safe either if he can't keep the ball down in his next couple starts.