This prospect's loud contact is turning heads - only he is no longer ours.

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

11 hours ago, Fat Calvin said:

I don't know if I want win/win because we compete against the Reds and against everybody else.  Win/lose would seem to be the better outcome. 

All negotiation personnel look for a win-win.  That is how the FO will continue to get other teams to work with them.  Great examples of win-wins are the Buxton and Correa contracts.  Same works for trades.

[TwinsDr2021]

25 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I mean your argument is basically that the Twins need to be able to see the future. Luis Castillo had missed 5 more starts before the deadline than Mahle had, but he didn't get hurt for Seattle. Mahle had come back from his injury and was pitching with no problems before the trade. Him getting hurt after the trade can count against the FO in your head, but it doesn't make any logical sense to me. The team finishing below .500 because a bunch of other guys got hurt, too, shouldn't play into the trade grade for Mahle. 

It's entirely possible for the trade to have been just fine (I think it was exactly what FOs try for when they make trades- news flash: FOs aren't actually trying to "win" trades like fans want them to, they're always looking for fair trades), but for the outcome of the season to have been disappointing. They don't have to be tied together. The implosion at the end of the year because of the incredible amount of injuries they suffered was brutal, and not fun at all. But that doesn't make giving up 2 mid-level position prospects who were blocked by multiple players in our own system, and a decent arm with mid-rotation upside, of which the Twins have plenty, a bad trade. The trade made sense, and is the kind of trade they should make regularly, but the season didn't go how they wanted for reasons completely outside of the trade itself. I don't get bashing the trade because of things that have nothing to do with the trade.

I took the comment more to be if the FO wants to keep their jobs, the trades better start working out ( I think ODO and Maeda worked out, mostly because they teams did what they hoped for, making the playoffs). not that the trade in general was bad or the wrong thing to do. You can like the trade but still be disappointment in the season outcome. I mean I am/was 100% behind the Lopez trade, but if he gets hurt or doesn't get hurt and the Twins miss the playoffs, I am still going to call for their heads, you can't miss the playoffs three years in a row with the moves they have made. IMO

[I wish the twins were good]

On 3/4/2023 at 4:01 PM, rwilfong86 said:

I wouldn't be surprised but I hope that isn't the case. Between Mahle, Gray, Lopez, Maeda and Ryan, Mahle is the one I think will go down first with an injury that causes him to miss significant time.

Contract year for him though, he has every reason to stay motivated. 

[chpettit19]

18 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I took the comment more to be if the FO wants to keep their jobs, the trades better start working out ( I think ODO and Maeda worked out, mostly because they teams did what they hoped for, making the playoffs). not that the trade in general was bad or the wrong thing to do. You can like the trade but still be disappointment in the season outcome. I mean I am/was 100% behind the Lopez trade, but if he gets hurt or doesn't get hurt and the Twins miss the playoffs, I am still going to call for their heads, you can't miss the playoffs three years in a row with the moves they have made. IMO

This is a thread about CES and what he's doing now after having been involved in the Mahle trade. That poster had made numerous comments before the one I quoted that the trade was bad because the team failed. I think you and I are saying pretty much the same thing. The team has to be better. But that's completely separate from "grading" the Mahle trade. The Mahle trade could have been a good move, and the team could still fail. They're separate things. One is an isolated event while the other is a collection of events.

You grade a trade based on what was known about the players involved in the trade at the time of the trade. Nobody was throwing a fit (nationally, not just in Twins Territory) about the Tatis Jr for Shields trade. You look back on it now and it's a disaster for Chicago. That's unfortunate, but it was a solid trade at the time. People everywhere were blasting the Pirates for their Archer trade. It looked bad at the time, and has turned out to be a disaster. Both trades ended up very 1 sided, but that was an easily predictable outcome for 1 of them while the other it was a very unlikely outcome.

My problem is simply the isolation of an individual move in the downfall of last season. They absolutely need better on-field results moving forward. No argument from me on that. But I disagree with commenting on/grading the Mahle trade in regards to the season outcome as a whole. The FO didn't make a mistake in the Mahle trade because he got hurt and the season tanked. It's just an unfortunate outcome. One of many last year. That trade alone didn't tank the season. They're out of "get out of jail free because of injuries" cards (at least with the fans). They can't use that excuse again this year. And it looks like they know that and built up as much depth as they could to avoid it. But having to use OFers 7-9 on the depth chart (plus Tim Beckham, yikes) in September and watching the season go down the drains with a AAA squad out there isn't, or shouldn't be, a condemnation of the Mahle trade. They're separate things. The Mahle trade made sense. The season failed. Both can be true. Mahle could've missed no starts for them and given up no runs, and they still would've ended up below .500.

[Doctor Gast]

I'm happy for CES & Steer doing well and in CIN top 10 prospect list. They'll have a lot more playing time there than here. Here they're blocked from much of any future. Hopefully our FO has learned that teams like OAK & CIN like to showcase their available SPs by squeezing out as many quality innings before they actually dump them. Many times their arms are shot when going to their perspective team. So FO need to examine better their objective trade piece before closing any deal.

I expect we'll win this deal this year, & hopefully extend Mahle (which makes more sense than Paddock IMO)

[Azviking101]

Thanks for sharing. No surprise here. He was the prospect I was most annoyed with losing last year. 

[rwilfong86]

4 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

The FO didn't make a mistake in the Mahle trade because he got hurt and the season tanked. It's just an unfortunate outcome. One of many last year. That trade alone didn't tank the season. They're out of "get out of jail free because of injuries" cards (at least with the fans). They can't use that excuse again this year. And it looks like they know that and built up as much depth as they could to avoid it. But having to use OFers 7-9 on the depth chart (plus Tim Beckham, yikes) in September and watching the season go down the drains with a AAA squad out there isn't, or shouldn't be, a condemnation of the Mahle trade. They're separate things. The Mahle trade made sense. The season failed. Both can be true. Mahle could've missed no starts for them and given up no runs, and they still would've ended up below .500.

Mahle had been hurt going into the trade, was on the IL with a shoulder strain on July 6 with the Reds. That should have been a red flag. https://www.redlegnation.com/2022/07/06/cincinnati-reds-place-tyler-mahle-on-the-injured-list-with-a-shoulder-strain/

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

Mahle had been hurt going into the trade, was on the IL with a shoulder strain on July 6 with the Reds. That should have been a red flag. https://www.redlegnation.com/2022/07/06/cincinnati-reds-place-tyler-mahle-on-the-injured-list-with-a-shoulder-strain/

Tyler Mahle had made 19 starts before the trade. There 4 pitchers in the majors with 22 starts at that point. The majority of fully healthy starters had made 21. He was 2 off a full workload. He returned from the IL and made 2 starts of 6 innings each before the trade. Made 2 starts of 6 innings each for the Twins after the trade.

Luis Castillo had only made 14 starts for the Reds before he was traded. Should Seattle fans be pissed at their FO for ignoring the red flag of him having been on the IL in the first half?

[rwilfong86]

26 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Tyler Mahle had made 19 starts before the trade. There 4 pitchers in the majors with 22 starts at that point. The majority of fully healthy starters had made 21. He was 2 off a full workload. He returned from the IL and made 2 starts of 6 innings each before the trade. Made 2 starts of 6 innings each for the Twins after the trade.

Luis Castillo had only made 14 starts for the Reds before he was traded. Should Seattle fans be pissed at their FO for ignoring the red flag of him having been on the IL in the first half?

The difference between Castillo and Mahle is the timing of the injury list stint. One started the season on the IL, the other was on the IL just a couple weeks before the trade deadline.

[nicksaviking]

I was and still am happy to have Mahle. But CES would have been a prospect I'd have been looking to trade in any case even though I hope he makes it.

***Someone cover Matt Wallner's ears for me.***

The guys with significant strikeout issues in the minors haven't been faring very well in the majors lately. Or maybe ever.

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

Mahle had been hurt going into the trade, was on the IL with a shoulder strain on July 6 with the Reds. That should have been a red flag. https://www.redlegnation.com/2022/07/06/cincinnati-reds-place-tyler-mahle-on-the-injured-list-with-a-shoulder-strain/

So, trade for no one? Your choices were Castillo (cost Lewis, lee, and two others) or Mahle or Montas. Those were it. Should the FO NOT have added a SP at the deadline? Sure, it was a risk, it is also why he cost what he cost, not more....

[rwilfong86]

9 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

So, trade for no one? Your choices were Castillo (cost Lewis, lee, and two others) or Mahle or Montas. Those were it. Should the FO NOT have added a SP at the deadline? Sure, it was a risk, it is also why he cost what he cost, not more....

The front office did what they thought was best to win a division last season but I can never understand trading for a pitcher who was on the IL right before the deal. If he has a great 2023 people will forget about what they gave up for him. Let's hope that's the case.

[chpettit19]

3 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

The difference between Castillo and Mahle is the timing of the injury list stint. One started the season on the IL, the other was on the IL just a couple weeks before the trade deadline.

So? He came back and threw 12 innings in 2 starts before the trade. What does it take to be considered healthy and no longer a health risk? 3 starts? 4? 12? If he hadn't gotten hurt with the Twins would you still be saying it was a health risk they shouldn't have taken? The Yankees took the same risk with Montas. Really didn't work out. The Yankees traded for Bader while he was on the injured listed and he came back and had no problems.

These are professional athletes testing the limits of the human body 162 games a year. Injuries happen. There's plenty of guys who've never been injured and then suddenly are. Plenty of guys who are always hurt and suddenly stop being. Injuries happen in professional sports. Let's quit acting like they're predictable. 

[Danchat]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

So, trade for no one? Your choices were Castillo (cost Lewis, lee, and two others) or Mahle or Montas. Those were it. Should the FO NOT have added a SP at the deadline? Sure, it was a risk, it is also why he cost what he cost, not more....

Was the price for Castillo that much? I remember commenting in the Other Baseball thread saying that I thought the deal came relatively cheap, but I don't remember the details. I'll have to go back and take a look.

[old nurse]

4 minutes ago, Danchat said:

Was the price for Castillo that much? I remember commenting in the Other Baseball thread saying that I thought the deal came relatively cheap, but I don't remember the details. I'll have to go back and take a look.

Two players in the top 100, 2 daily3e tickets

[old nurse]

Perhaps one needs to remember all the spring training mashers who did not pan out. Lament the trade once CES has 3-4 hundred AB at the major league level

[Fat Calvin]

11 hours ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

All negotiation personnel look for a win-win.  That is how the FO will continue to get other teams to work with them.  Great examples of win-wins are the Buxton and Correa contracts.  Same works for trades.

I respectfully disagree.  Win/Win is all nice and good--kind of warm a fuzzy--but any negotiator worth his weight in salt is only concerned with winning, i.e, getting the best deal for himself, for his company or for his client.  He is hired to win, just like a baseball team.  May the best man win, may the best team win, and may the force be with you.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, Fat Calvin said:

I respectfully disagree.  Win/Win is all nice and good--kind of warm a fuzzy--but any negotiator worth his weight in salt is only concerned with winning, i.e, getting the best deal for himself, for his company or for his client.  He is hired to win, just like a baseball team.  May the best man win, may the best team win, and may the force be with you.

That's not what is taught at all even in MBA class. Research also doesn't back that up. 

[Fat Calvin]

My point exactly!  Business Schools and professional recruiters like "Corn Ferry" produce guys like Derek Falvey, and Rocco.  Need I say more?

[wabene]

32 minutes ago, Fat Calvin said:

My point exactly!  Business Schools and professional recruiters like "Corn Ferry" produce guys like Derek Falvey, and Rocco.  Need I say more?

Rocco Baldelli is a ballplayer drafted out of highschool. He did not go to college. He learned how to read spreadsheets while standing on grass, lol. 

[bighat]

The Mahle trade may go down as one of the worst in history for the Twins. 

They could have waited until Kenta came back this year and they'd still have had Steer and Encarnacion-Strand. 

If Mahle doesn't have a Cy Young caliber year for this team, I think the trade is a complete and total bust. 

[tony&rodney]

23 minutes ago, bighat said:

The Mahle trade may go down as one of the worst in history for the Twins. 

They could have waited until Kenta came back this year and they'd still have had Steer and Encarnacion-Strand. 

If Mahle doesn't have a Cy Young caliber year for this team, I think the trade is a complete and total bust. 

Are Steer and Encarnacion-Strand already All Stars? How many wins will each accumulate in 2023?

Is it possible that some may be a little ahead of the curve on this trade?

Who gets cut from the 40 person if we actually still had these two players? It would have to be two of Julien, Lewis, Miranda, Larnach, Wallner.

As much as I liked watching both of the now young Reds, I'm just not seeing any complaint about losing a couple of superstars. 

[Squirrel]

3 hours ago, bighat said:

If Mahle doesn't have a Cy Young caliber year for this team, I think the trade is a complete and total bust. 

That is quite a bit overstated, imo. It already was a good trade. ES may become a solid MLBer with a good bat, but he would still be behind Lewis, Martin, Lee and Julien on our depth chart. Trading him for a solid pitcher was a good trade. Even if Mahle has a decent year, not necessarily Cy Young, but decent, giving the Twins more chances to win than lose, it was a good trade for the Twins, even if EC has an all-star caliber year. We got what we needed out of it. That’s all that matters. Many of you here are treating this as if ES is already a perennial all-star. Maybe revisit this in 10-15 years to see how things truly played out

[Trov]

3 hours ago, bighat said:

The Mahle trade may go down as one of the worst in history for the Twins. 

They could have waited until Kenta came back this year and they'd still have had Steer and Encarnacion-Strand. 

If Mahle doesn't have a Cy Young caliber year for this team, I think the trade is a complete and total bust. 

Would you rank Steer and CES above Lee, Lewis, Miranda, and Julien? They all basically played the same roll in minors.  Some area of infield.  Unless you moved some to OF, you could not play all 6 at a time.  Now that we have CC for 6 more years, that really only leaves 3 spots, if none move to OF.  Of the 4 we kept, who would you swap?  One way or the other at least 2 or 3 were not going to be playing with Twins in the future. 

[arby58]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:53 PM, Nashvilletwin said:

Given the first rationale for the deal was for Mahle to lead the way to a division title and at least one playoff victory last season, the trade has been a disaster for the Twins to this point. If Mahle is healthy this year, the trade may end up working out for us and possibly both teams. But that’s a big if. 

How is it 'a disaster for the Twins to this point?' CES wouldn't have contributed anything to the Twins last year, and anything he is doing now in spring training is irrelevant, unless he ends up on the major league roster this year - which is unlikely. I'd call it an incomplete grade for both teams. If Mahle is a contributing member of this year's starting rotation, it might end up being a reasonable trade for both teams.

[Nashvilletwin]

5 hours ago, arby58 said:

How is it 'a disaster for the Twins to this point?' CES wouldn't have contributed anything to the Twins last year, and anything he is doing now in spring training is irrelevant, unless he ends up on the major league roster this year - which is unlikely. I'd call it an incomplete grade for both teams. If Mahle is a contributing member of this year's starting rotation, it might end up being a reasonable trade for both teams.

At the moment, Mahle has done nothing for us when he was suppose to be a key cog in last years playoff run - which was a huge part of the rationale for doing the deal. We shall see what the future holds…

[Squirrel]

50 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

At the moment, Mahle has done nothing for us when he was suppose to be a key cog in last years playoff run - which was a huge part of the rationale for doing the deal. We shall see what the future holds…

ES hasn’t either. So why the consternation?

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

16 hours ago, Fat Calvin said:

I respectfully disagree.  Win/Win is all nice and good--kind of warm a fuzzy--but any negotiator worth his weight in salt is only concerned with winning, i.e, getting the best deal for himself, for his company or for his client.  He is hired to win, just like a baseball team.  May the best man win, may the best team win, and may the force be with you.

I guess we agree to disagree then.  I just believe that negotiators have more respect for each other, although they are adversaries, if they know the other negotiator is trying to work out a fair deal for both sides.  If they know that the other negotiator is the cut-throat all for my client type, then the likelihood that they even offer a fair deal is greatly diminished as is their respect for the other negotiator.

I used to negotiate contracts and I can tell you from my experience, I had much better results for my clients when I had a respectful relationship with the other negotiator.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

10 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Who gets cut from the 40 person if we actually still had these two players? It would have to be two of Julien, Lewis, Miranda, Larnach, Wallner.

what about pitchers? please let me know if there was a rule change

@Heiny @Steve Lein @Squirrel @chpettit19

[Squirrel]

32 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

what about pitchers? please let me know if there was a rule change

@Heiny @Steve Lein @Squirrel @chpettit19

🙄
Not exactly sure your question. ES still would remain behind the 4 I listed. And are you saying that you would prefer a Bundy or Archer on the starting rotation this year instead of Mahle? For you and others who say Mahle has yet to give us anything, fine. But what would ES give us this year? Still 5th on the depth chart. That’s why I said let’s check back in 10-15 yrs from now