Do the Twins Prefer Positionless Prospects?

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

I think you are right - SS is the key like C and CF.  If I had to rank the importance of positions I would go:

1. SS
2. C
3. CF
4. RF
5. 3B
6. 2B
7. LF
8. 1B

This off because I am only looking at positions and P would also be the key to success.  I rank 3B over 2B because I think there is a reason that it is called the hot corner.  In the past when ground balls were more common 2B would be higher because of the double play.

I'll quibble with third over second, if you mean defensive importance.  Last season third base ranked behind only first base in aggregate OPS.  That seems to me strong evidence that managers will strain to get a good bat into the lineup at that position.

Catcher is unique IMO and belongs at the top of your list. Aggregate OPS for catchers ranked last.

[mikelink45]

40 minutes ago, ashbury said:

I'll quibble with third over second, if you mean defensive importance.  Last season third base ranked behind only first base in aggregate OPS.  That seems to me strong evidence that managers will strain to get a good bat into the lineup at that position.

Catcher is unique IMO and belongs at the top of your list. Aggregate OPS for catchers ranked last.

This list was not about offense - it is reflective of what I see as the defensive importance.  I watched Eddie Mathews and Brooks Robinson and Craig Nettles and Nolen Arenado and Mike Schmidt and all of them could handle a bat, but really picked up WAR from their defense.  Nettles and Robinson may have won their WS with their gloves.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

21 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Do you think the Cards should move Jordan Walker to RF? He's a better prospect than anything in the Twins system and the Cards are moving him from 3B to RF. Gunnar Henderson is maybe the best prospect in baseball and the Orioles moved him from SS to 3B when he got to the bigs. And now may move him back to SS. Corbin Carroll could also make an argument that he's the best prospect in baseball, and could win GGs in CF, but he moved to LF when he got promoted. Manny Machado came up as a SS. Trea Turner came up as a SS, moved to CF, moved to 2B, then moved back to SS. Fernando Tatis Jr came up as a SS and is now moving to RF. Juan Soto has bounced back and forth between LF and RF. Kyle Schwarber came up as a C. That's all just off the top of my head. This is just how promotions and roster construction works.

Lewis and Lee may have had shots at being big league SSs, but now the Twins have a platinum glove winner there. Same reason Walker is moving to RF. That Arenado guy in St Louis is pretty good at 3B. I think the moving around of players is too big of a discussion point in general. It's incredibly normal. And fielding a grounder at 3B isn't that much different than fielding them at SS or 2B or 1B. There's nuances to playing positions, but if you can play SS, you can play 3B.

The general idea is you keep guys as high on the defensive ladder as possible, for as long as possible. It's why Martin has been getting reps at SS when almost nobody expects him to stay there. Give him a chance to show what he can do at the top of the ladder because even if he has to slide down a few spots in the bigs he'll have been working on the skills it takes to play those other spots well. It's easier to move from the IF to the OF since being truly good at fielding grounders takes more skill than getting to and catching fly balls. Some guys simply can't judge fly balls well enough, but most elite athletes can. So teams keep guys on the dirt as long as they can (like Walker for the Cardinals) before moving them if they're blocked in the majors. Lee will continue to get time at SS because it's the highest spot he has a chance to play on the ladder. Once his bat is ready the Twins will move him to 3B or 2B if that's what's needed based on the roster.

Teams aren't trying to create utility players, they're trying to keep guys as high on the ladder as they can for as long as they can. Or they're trying to find a spot that the guy could succeed (Julien being the example there). They move the guy around some early in their careers to see what they look like in different spots, and give them an idea of the highest spot on the ladder they could succeed. Then they give them time to work at 1 position (Julien at 2B last year). Then they reassess and make adjustments. It's not all about how their bodies develop. And it's not done on a whim. The guys making these decisions are incredibly good at scouting players and seeing things that give them hope, or doubts, about a player's ability to stick at certain positions.

Very good post CH. Thanks.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

3 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

I think you are right - SS is the key like C and CF.  If I had to rank the importance of positions I would go:

1. SS
2. C
3. CF
4. RF
5. 3B
6. 2B
7. LF
8. 1B

This off because I am only looking at positions and P would also be the key to success.  I rank 3B over 2B because I think there is a reason that it is called the hot corner.  In the past when ground balls were more common 2B would be higher because of the double play.

Mike, I would rank the importance of positions as ff: 1) C; 2) SS 3) CF 4) 2B; 5) 3B 6) RF 7) 1B 8) LF 9) in honor of that great fielding pitcher, multiple Gold Glove winning, Hall of Famer, Jim "Kitty" Kaat, I am going to include the position of pitcher as the ninth most important fielding position in his honor.  Catcher is the most important defensive position because, as you stated, pitching is the key to success. The catcher affects pitching tremendously with the catcher's pitch selection, strategy, knowledge of his pitcher's strengths and weaknesses, and the batter's strengths and weaknesses, attention to possible injuries which may be causing the pitcher problems. prevents stolen bases with a quick, accurate release and a strong arm, and as the rules stand now, with his sneaky pitch framing. Catcher is the most important defensive position. 

[Fire Dan Gladden]

13 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

In my humble opinion, this thread may be the silliest I've read on TD.  The primary goal for any team should be to put players at whatever defensive position that provides the most benefit for the team.  Who cares what position they played when drafted?  Once they sign a contract, it's management's responsibility to determine where they best fit.

The silliest?  Really?  I have seen some doozies...

FWIW Morneau was drafted as a catcher (them Canadian hockey players think they can stop everything)

[Rosterman]

Well, signing Correa means the Twins have a lot of shortstop prospects that will need to find new places to play, with one or two also keeping that glove in-case-of-an-emergency.

[Mike Sixel]

23 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Sorry Cody, I don't like the term position-less players when describing players like Lewis. Because it's not true, they are multi-positional. If their main position is blocked then they jump to another one. To me a position-less player is someone who can hit & can play 1B/ DH but if their position is blocked so they're stuck.

But I know what you mean, yet that's a little different from drafting a big bat at SS or CF knowing full well they won't stick. We have to draft athletic types that can field because if we draft a big bat that can't hit, they're stuck in the lower levels.

Ya, I don't like this either. And, it isn't that they CAN'T stick at SS, it is there is only ONE SS on the field at a time. And, SS and CF are often the most athletic, so they can move around to a new position. This is just a really bad/odd way to think of elite athletes, as "positionless".

[TwinsDr2021]

On 2/26/2023 at 11:19 AM, Cory Engelhardt said:

I think unless a guy is an absolute high end fit at an up the middle position (cf, ss or catcher) I’d prefer guys have the flexibility to play the other positions as much as possible. Having the ability to cover multiple spots certainly is a benefit, not a curse

Plus generally they are much cheaper

[Melissa]

21 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

Eddie played in 2391 games - I do not think he was a utility player

Apart from definitions, mention of Mathews brought back such good memories for me as young fan in Milwaukee: Eddie Mathews, Joe Alcock, Del Crandall, Warren Spahn, Lew Burdette, Felipe Alou … and of course the inestimable Henry Aaron!

[mikelink45]

4 minutes ago, Melissa said:

Apart from definitions, mention of Mathews brought back such good memories for me as young fan in Milwaukee: Eddie Mathews, Joe Alcock, Del Crandall, Warren Spahn, Lew Burdette, Felipe Alou … and of course the inestimable Henry Aaron!

You are talking about my very favorite team (sorry Twins) and I got to see them play in the last half of the fifties.  Loved them.

 

[Major League Ready]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Ya, I don't like this either. And, it isn't that they CAN'T stick at SS, it is there is only ONE SS on the field at a time. And, SS and CF are often the most athletic, so they can move around to a new position. This is just a really bad/odd way to think of elite athletes, as "positionless".

I wonder what the ratio is in terms of the number of SS drafted  vs 2b and 3B.  Just a guess but I bet there are 2-3 SS for every 2B or 3B.

[Cris E]

The Twins prefer hitters.

They mostly figure they'll figure out the defense later, but if a guy can't hit he can't play. Also, if a bat-first guy like Jeter can win a shoebox full of rings as a SS then they can find a way to make their best prospects fit into a defense built around Correa and Buxton.

[joefish]

I think versatility is over valued. I prefer excellent defensive specialists.

Of course Injuries and emergencies happen. 

[Nine of twelve]

A player who is drafted is usually one of the best players on his team, often the best, especially one chosen with an early draft pick. A coach will generally put a team's best fielder at SS. So being listed as a shortstop does not necessarily mean a player will wind up there as a professional, it's simply a consequence of being the biggest fish in a small pond.

[Jocko87]

Lots of good talk about player development and rightly so but I think the main thing we should be discussing in relation to the Twins drafting/player development strategy is that they appear to be pivoting from a draft and develop for every spot organization into a draft the best prospects and trade to fill needs organization.   The next 6 years for sure are win now mode and prospects will be sacrificed for the good of the big league team.  This will end up being a lot of college shortstops, center fielders and pitchers.  I think they have adjusted a bit and we wont see many more Sabato type picks going forward.  Versatility trades well.

[Elliot]

 

On 2/26/2023 at 1:40 PM, big dog said:

 Justin Morneau was a first baseman, but of course that's where you put someone who can't really play any other position so I don't think that counts.

I think he started his Twins minor league career as a catcher. 

[Trov]

16 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

I wonder what the ratio is in terms of the number of SS drafted  vs 2b and 3B.  Just a guess but I bet there are 2-3 SS for every 2B or 3B.

So when a player is drafted, the team generally says what they are drafting them as.  If you go by that standard, most HS guys will be drafted as SS, even when team fully expects they move off SS in future.  If they are out of college, you will see more identified as the position they think they can stick at.  However, out of HS most will be SS as you do not put your best player overall at 2nd base.  If a team drafted a HS player at 2nd they better not be a high pick. 

[Major League Ready]

24 minutes ago, Trov said:

So when a player is drafted, the team generally says what they are drafting them as.  If you go by that standard, most HS guys will be drafted as SS, even when team fully expects they move off SS in future.  If they are out of college, you will see more identified as the position they think they can stick at.  However, out of HS most will be SS as you do not put your best player overall at 2nd base.  If a team drafted a HS player at 2nd they better not be a high pick. 

Isn't that also true among college teams?  Obviously, not to the same degree but I am guessing a lot more SS are drafted out of college vs 2B or 3B.  

[tarheeltwinsfan]

19 hours ago, Melissa said:

Apart from definitions, mention of Mathews brought back such good memories for me as young fan in Milwaukee: Eddie Mathews, Joe Alcock, Del Crandall, Warren Spahn, Lew Burdette, Felipe Alou … and of course the inestimable Henry Aaron!

Beautiful memories Melissa. Add to the 57 Braves, Johnny Logan at SS and Bill Bruton at CF, who were solid fielders. Then add Ernie Johnson at RP. Ernie became better known later, as the much-loved, long-time Atlanta Braves announcer. Add Dave Jolly at RP. Dave was from Stoney Point, North Carolina in the county next to where I grew up. He was a product of playing on some mill teams in North Carolina, along with fellow North Carolinian, Hoyt Wilhelm. Dave died at age 38 from complications of a brain tumor. His widow worked in the Register of Deeds office in the adjacent county for a number of years. Finally, who could forget 6'8" pitcher, Gene Conley, who played basketball for the Boston Celtics in the baseball off-season. As the song says: "Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end." 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Melissa]

Billy Bruton! Yes, I was struggling to remember his name. Bruton was the second Braves player to live in my town of Mequon, after Mr. Aaron and his family broke that particular color barrier. The Aarons lived down the road from us, and Mrs. Barbara Aaron and my mom were friends. Gaile Aaron and I were classmates. It was both an “interesting” and an amazing time.

[big dog]

On 2/28/2023 at 7:33 AM, Elliot said:

 

I think he started his Twins minor league career as a catcher. 

He had been a catcher before he was drafted, true. His first year he played 22 games at catcher, 27 games at 1B, and 7 in RF. Then it was exclusively 1B.