Rumor: Twins interested in Brad Hand?

[LA VIkes Fan]

2 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Young guys like 33 year old Danny Coulombe? It's has-been versus never-was for most of these decisions.

I think there are some young guys who could get that last bullpen spot but will be aced out by a Hand or similar signing. Henriquez, Sands, and Megill all come to mind. I'm guessing there are others. Having said that, I don't think it should drive the decision of whether or not to sign Hand. If the FO thinks he's the same guy or close to it as last year, we should sign him, I think thee will be plenty of opportunities for AAA relievers to get time at the MLB level due to injuries or ineffectiveness. We don't need to make a spot for any of those guys. 

[Mike Sixel]

22 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

He made $6 million last year and had a 2.80 ERA……pretty sure that’s what his agent is telling our FO!

He’s gotta be at $4.5 - $5.0 million minimum.

Like his experience!!!! Not his first rodeo.

We have 3 outs to get in the 8th with 2 of 3 guys being LH hitters OR even 1 of the 3 guys being a LH hitter. Pick one:

Pagan - Hand - López??

Come on - sign him!

Pagan isn't pitching the 8th. No idea why that's even stated.

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

I think there are some young guys who could get that last bullpen spot but will be aced out by a Hand or similar signing. Henriquez, Sands, and Megill all come to mind. I'm guessing there are others. Having said that, I don't think it should drive the decision of whether or not to sign Hand. If the FO thinks he's the same guy or close to it as last year, we should sign him, I think thee will be plenty of opportunities for AAA relievers to get time at the MLB level due to injuries or ineffectiveness. We don't need to make a spot for any of those guys. 

Gotta have some guys with options in the bullpen, or gotta cut guys you just signed and are paying. It's easier/faster to send guys down than to cut guys you just signed. Plus it gives you flexibility for upcoming matchups. People really underestimate the value of guys with options compared to ok veterans.

[Eicemann]

21 hours ago, Brady said:

Only interested because he represents another LHP option out of the pen. I think Moran will be fine, he just needs a little more experience at the Major League level to really solidify himself. Thielbar is also solid, but at some point I'd start to be wary of regression given variance that is standard with relievers as well as age. But, Hand isn't immune to those same concerns.

All in all, I don't see the point of overpaying for an arm that is, at best, marginally better than what we have in place already.

I only like Hand if the FO thinks he's a viable closer committee member that would enable Duran to be used in multi-inning situations when necessary.  There are other viable LOOGYs out there if they're wanting another matchup bullpen arm.

[DJL44]

57 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Gotta have some guys with options in the bullpen, or gotta cut guys you just signed and are paying. It's easier/faster to send guys down than to cut guys you just signed. Plus it gives you flexibility for upcoming matchups. People really underestimate the value of guys with options compared to ok veterans.

There's no reason they can't put the back-end bullpen pitchers with options in AAA to begin the season. The players without options will make the roster or the injured list. It is prudent to avoid prematurely bringing up a player who doesn't have to be added to the 40-man roster. Let them earn the spot with their minor league performance. I don't see anyone off the 40-man roster who deserves a spot more than Brad Hand. I'd rather see Hand pitch than Laweryson, Rozek, Funderburk or Sammons. Blayne Enlow should earn his spot again.

[Mike Sixel]

6 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

There's no reason they can't put the back-end bullpen pitchers with options in AAA to begin the season. The players without options will make the roster or the injured list. It is prudent to avoid prematurely bringing up a player who doesn't have to be added to the 40-man roster. Let them earn the spot with their minor league performance. I don't see anyone off the 40-man roster who deserves a spot more than Brad Hand. I'd rather see Hand pitch than Laweryson, Rozek, Funderburk or Sammons. Blayne Enlow should earn his spot again.

Winder, Sands, Henriquez.....and others are on the 40 man already. To be clear, you want zero young guys not already in the pen in the pen? Zero?

[TopGunn#22]

I wouldn't be opposed to signing Hand, but I much prefer Matt Moore or Will Smith.  I think Moran will be a solid BP piece and having 3 LH's in the pen isn't a bad idea.  

[nicksaviking]

12 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Winder, Sands, Henriquez.....and others are on the 40 man already. To be clear, you want zero young guys not already in the pen in the pen? Zero?

Exactly, all three of whom can be swapped back to St. Paul if the actual need for a third lefty arises.

[DJL44]

9 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Winder, Sands, Henriquez.....and others are on the 40 man already. To be clear, you want zero young guys not already in the pen in the pen? Zero?

On Opening Day, absolutely. Winder, Sands, Henriquez, Megill, Moran, even Alcala if he looks off. Some pitcher will be on the injured list within 2 weeks and someone else can come up. It's impossible to keep 13 pitchers healthy at the same time.

Just look at last April:

Before the season started - Cody Stashak injured, Jharel Cotton added.

4/12 - Alcala to the injured list, Dereck Rodriguez added to the roster

4/17 - Sonny Gray to the injured list

4/20 - Jhon Romero injured

4/30 - Bailey Ober injured

5/6 - Dylan Bundy injured

5/10 - Chris Paddack injured

5/11 - Danny Coulombe injured

5/21 - Winder injured

5/22 - Stashak injured

5/25 - Joe Ryan injured

5/28 - Coulombe injured

That's just April and May and they used the injured list for pitchers 11 times.

Let's avoid using quad-A players like Cotton, Coulombe, Minaya, Rodriguez and Smeltzer or bringing up rookies too soon like they did last year with Sands, Moran and Cano.

 

 

[DJL44]

Better yet, look at some of the names in the top 20 for innings pitched for the 2022 Twins

6) Devin Smeltzer 70.1

9) Emilio Pagan 63

12) Trevor Megill 45.0

13) Tyler Duffey 44.0

15) Jharel Cotton 35.0

16) Cole Sands 30.2

17) Aaron Sanchez 28.2

18) Joe Smith 27.1

That's a whole lot of bleh. They gave innings to 36 pitchers and 2 position players last season. Brad Hand could be useful, even if it's just avoiding the 56 innings they gave Ian Hamilton, Austin Davis, Chi Chi Gonzalez, Derek Rodriguez, Juan Minaya, Tyler Thornburg, Nick Gordon, Jermaine Palacios and Yennier Cano.

[Mike Sixel]

41 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Better yet, look at some of the names in the top 20 for innings pitched for the 2022 Twins

6) Devin Smeltzer 70.1

9) Emilio Pagan 63

12) Trevor Megill 45.0

13) Tyler Duffey 44.0

15) Jharel Cotton 35.0

16) Cole Sands 30.2

17) Aaron Sanchez 28.2

18) Joe Smith 27.1

That's a whole lot of bleh. They gave innings to 36 pitchers and 2 position players last season. Brad Hand could be useful, even if it's just avoiding the 56 innings they gave Ian Hamilton, Austin Davis, Chi Chi Gonzalez, Derek Rodriguez, Juan Minaya, Tyler Thornburg, Nick Gordon, Jermaine Palacios and Yennier Cano.

Why are we comparing him to guys not on the roster? 

[DJL44]

31 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why are we comparing him to guys not on the roster? 

I guess you could compare Brad Hand to the 50+ innings they're likely to give to guys like Laweryson, Rozek, Funderburk, Sammons, Enlow, de Leon, Coulombe, Locke St. John, Connor Sadzeck, Parker Bugg, Tyler Webb, Chad Donato, Oliver Ortega, Brock Stewart, Aaron Sanchez, Austin Schulfer, Patrick Murphy, Samuel Perez, Carlos Luna, Jose Vazquez, Joel Garcia or Matt Mullenbach.

871 pitchers were used in MLB in 2022. That's an average of 29 pitchers per team. Brad Hand is better than the 20th pitcher the Twins have under contract. He might be better than the 15th pitcher they have under contract.

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I guess you could compare Brad Hand to the 50+ innings they're likely to give to guys like Laweryson, Rozek, Funderburk, Sammons, Enlow, de Leon, Coulombe, Locke St. John, Connor Sadzeck, Parker Bugg, Tyler Webb, Chad Donato, Oliver Ortega, Brock Stewart, Aaron Sanchez, Austin Schulfer, Patrick Murphy, Samuel Perez, Carlos Luna, Jose Vazquez, Joel Garcia or Matt Mullenbach.

871 pitchers were used in MLB in 2022. That's an average of 29 pitchers per team. Brad Hand is better than the 20th pitcher the Twins have under contract. He might be better than the 15th pitcher they have under contract.

I literally listed the three guys he'd replace.....

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, Mike Sixel said:

I literally listed the three guys he'd replace.....

We've both made our points...further discussion won't gain anything.

[DJL44]

27 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I literally listed the three guys he'd replace.....

I'm trying to tell you that Sands, Henriquez and Winder are still going to get PLENTY of innings in 2023 even if they add Brad Hand to the roster. He's not replacing any of them, he's temporarily (for a week or two) bumping them down one notch on the depth chart but they're still going to need 5-15 more pitchers beyond those that you mentioned. Teams don't use 13 pitchers a season, they use 25-30 of them. They should try to stash as many decent pitchers in AAA as possible because they will end up using all of them.

They have 22 pitchers on the 40-man roster. Two of them are injured and unavailable for months. Balazovic and Headrick are not ready. 18 pitchers is probably not enough to make it until June. Last season it wasn't enough to make it until mid-May.

[tony&rodney]

Fulmer, Chafin, others are signing and Hand, Moore, Will Smith, and Zach Britton are still available. They seem like fair rolls of the die, but then one must slide a player off the 40 person roster and the guys named cannot be sent down. The Twins have some arms they want to see and the next month will tell if Falvey and the eyes on the pitching staff seek to add a player. A trade seems more likely. 

[DJL44]

1 minute ago, tony&rodney said:

one must slide a player off the 40 person roster and the guys named cannot be sent down

Paddack and Canterino can move off the 40 man roster immediately. Sands, Henriquez, Alcala, Megill, Jax, Moran and Winder ALL have options.

[chpettit19]

I'd certainly offer him a minor league deal if he's willing to take that. I think he's cooked so wouldn't be excited to offer him a major league deal. But I'm a pretty big Moran believer. And many teams are only carrying 1 lefty now. The days of the LOOGY are gone. It's the time of straight up relievers now. You simply have to be able to get both lefties and righties out now. The 3 batter minimum, and teams using data to make decisions more than ever means it's far less likely you have room for anyone who is matchup specific in your pen. Matchups aren't about lefty vs righty anymore, they're about high vs low leverage.

[tony&rodney]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm a pretty big Moran believer.

Me too. I want to see him pitch 70 innings this year for the Twins and zero in the minors. 

[TCSquad]

Give the local boy a chance! Maybe "coming home" will give him that extra oomph he may have been missing the last year or two! #AlwaysLookOnTheBrightSideOfLife

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, DJL44 said:

I guess you could compare Brad Hand to the 50+ innings they're likely to give to guys like Laweryson, Rozek, Funderburk, Sammons, Enlow, de Leon, Coulombe, Locke St. John, Connor Sadzeck, Parker Bugg, Tyler Webb, Chad Donato, Oliver Ortega, Brock Stewart, Aaron Sanchez, Austin Schulfer, Patrick Murphy, Samuel Perez, Carlos Luna, Jose Vazquez, Joel Garcia or Matt Mullenbach.

871 pitchers were used in MLB in 2022. That's an average of 29 pitchers per team. Brad Hand is better than the 20th pitcher the Twins have under contract. He might be better than the 15th pitcher they have under contract.

I strongly disagree. I think Brad Hand is a liability, not an asset. Strikeouts are poor. Walks are poor. Those are the two biggest things to look for in a reliever and both are on a declining trend. He's also a groundball pitcher in a year where the shift has been banned. He looks more likely to be a 2022 Joe Smith. These kinds of pitchers shouldn't get MLB deals, but they do because people remember them from three years ago.

You'll almost certainly find better pitchers in the stable of untested and unknown arms already in the system. And the great thing about those pitchers is that you can cycle through them until you get it right. You can't cycle through a vet on a MLB contract. The team will hold on to him trying to squeeze equity from him while the losses pile up.

[Mike Sixel]

11 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I strongly disagree. I think Brad Hand is a liability, not an asset. Strikeouts are poor. Walks are poor. Those are the two biggest things to look for in a reliever and both are on a declining trend. He's also a groundball pitcher in a year where the shift has been banned. He looks more likely to be a 2022 Joe Smith. These kinds of pitchers shouldn't get MLB deals, but they do because people remember them from three years ago.

You'll almost certainly find better pitchers in the stable of untested and unknown arms already in the system. And the great thing about those pitchers is that you can cycle through them until you get it right. You can't cycle through a vet on a MLB contract. The team will hold on to him trying to squeeze equity from him while the losses pile up.

100% this, especially the last sentence.

[DJL44]

23 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I strongly disagree. I think Brad Hand is a liability, not an asset. Strikeouts are poor. Walks are poor. Those are the two biggest things to look for in a reliever and both are on a declining trend. He's also a groundball pitcher in a year where the shift has been banned. He looks more likely to be a 2022 Joe Smith. These kinds of pitchers shouldn't get MLB deals, but they do because people remember them from three years ago.

You'll almost certainly find better pitchers in the stable of untested and unknown arms already in the system. And the great thing about those pitchers is that you can cycle through them until you get it right. You can't cycle through a vet on a MLB contract. The team will hold on to him trying to squeeze equity from him while the losses pile up.

It doesn't really matter if he gets a minor league contract or a major league contract. There's an open spot on the roster.

I listed the "stable" of untested and unknown arms. Which one of those arms do you think is better? Funderburk? Also, if you want to add a rookie to the roster and then cut him you have to expose him to waivers. That's a good way to lose a lot of talent simply because they weren't ready yet. 

The Twins didn't hold onto Joe Smith after he showed how bad he was even though they were using equally bad players like Aaron Sanchez, Jharel Cotton and Chi Chi Gonzalez.

I ultimately don't care if it's Brad Hand or some other veteran reliever. There are a handful of unsigned vets better than that "stable" of untested and unproven arms. Add a new wrinkle today that Falvey wants Sands and Winder working as starting pitchers in the minors and the bullpen looks really, really thin. 

Duran, Lopez, Jax, Thielbar, Pagan, Alcala, Megill, Moran, Henriquez. That's only 9 guys for 8 spots and no depth whatsoever on the 40 man roster. They will use at least 15 pitchers in relief this year. I hope that "stable" produces 6 more pitchers better than Brad Hand.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, DJL44 said:

It doesn't really matter if he gets a minor league contract or a major league contract. There's an open spot on the roster.

I listed the "stable" of untested and unknown arms. Which one of those arms do you think is better? Funderburk? Also, if you want to add a rookie to the roster and then cut him you have to expose him to waivers. That's a good way to lose a lot of talent simply because they weren't ready yet. 

The Twins didn't hold onto Joe Smith after he showed how bad he was even though they were using equally bad players like Aaron Sanchez, Jharel Cotton and Chi Chi Gonzalez.

I ultimately don't care if it's Brad Hand or some other veteran reliever. There are a handful of unsigned vets better than that "stable" of untested and unproven arms. Add a new wrinkle today that Falvey wants Sands and Winder working as starting pitchers in the minors and the bullpen looks really, really thin. 

Duran, Lopez, Jax, Thielbar, Pagan, Alcala, Megill, Moran, Henriquez. That's only 9 guys for 8 spots and no depth whatsoever on the 40 man roster. They will use at least 15 pitchers in relief this year. I hope that "stable" produces 6 more pitchers better than Brad Hand.

I think it matters if he gets a minor league or major league contract. A minor league contract means he isn't on the 40-man until they decide he's the best option and call him up. If he signs a major league deal he's automatically on the 26-man or playing the waive and wait game if they want to send him down early. Those open 40-man spots are useful and shouldn't be given to someone who may not be good enough to be on the 26-man on opening day. Especially if they don't have any options. Guys will get waived during the spring and having open 40-man spots to take a shot at someone much younger than Hand is a better use of those spots, in my opinion.

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, DJL44 said:

It doesn't really matter if he gets a minor league contract or a major league contract. There's an open spot on the roster.

I listed the "stable" of untested and unknown arms. Which one of those arms do you think is better? Funderburk? Also, if you want to add a rookie to the roster and then cut him you have to expose him to waivers. That's a good way to lose a lot of talent simply because they weren't ready yet. 

The Twins didn't hold onto Joe Smith after he showed how bad he was even though they were using equally bad players like Aaron Sanchez, Jharel Cotton and Chi Chi Gonzalez.

I ultimately don't care if it's Brad Hand or some other veteran reliever. There are a handful of unsigned vets better than that "stable" of untested and unproven arms. Add a new wrinkle today that Falvey wants Sands and Winder working as starting pitchers in the minors and the bullpen looks really, really thin. 

Duran, Lopez, Jax, Thielbar, Pagan, Alcala, Megill, Moran, Henriquez. That's only 9 guys for 8 spots and no depth whatsoever on the 40 man roster. They will use at least 15 pitchers in relief this year. I hope that "stable" produces 6 more pitchers better than Brad Hand.

No depth? Go Winder, Varland, SWR, Sands, Headrick, Stashak, Coulombe, Balazovic, Funderburk, Bentley, Cabezas, Gross, Enlow, Legumina, Lawyerson, Sammons, Schuffler, Scherff. Ober or which ever other starter is left out of the rotation.

I think you're confused about the process, you don't have to "cut" any of these guys, if they mess up you can send them back to St. Paul. Even after one outing. ESPECIALLY  after one outing. You really think they'll pull the plug on Brad Hand after a few bad outings? They won't. They won't pull the plug on him after five bad outings. Maybe not even 10. You seriously think Hand will be better than ALL of those guys listed? It never works that way. The guy has lost the ability to miss bats and he's lost the ability to avoid walks. Who wants a smoke and mirrors guy in the pen? Who wants a guy who's making the infielders get all of his outs for him when the game is on the line? With no shift allowed?

People need to stop thinking veterans are better than unknown rookies. If they were, they probably would still have jobs with their current clubs, and they certainly wouldn't still be free agents when Spring Training opens. And you know what, if the rookies aren't cutting it, they can get a reliever 5x better than Hand by dealing a guy like Legumina. Like they did last year when they traded Gipson-Long for Michael Fulmer.

[chpettit19]

44 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

No depth? Go Winder, Varland, SWR, Sands, Headrick, Stashak, Coulombe, Balazovic, Funderburk, Bentley, Cabezas, Gross, Enlow, Legumina, Lawyerson, Sammons, Schuffler, Scherff. Ober or which ever other starter is left out of the rotation.

I think you're confused about the process, you don't have to "cut" any of these guys, if they mess up you can send them back to St. Paul. Even after one outing. ESPECIALLY  after one outing. You really think they'll pull the plug on Brad Hand after a few bad outings? They won't. They won't pull the plug on him after five bad outings. Maybe not even 10. You seriously think Hand will be better than ALL of those guys listed? It never works that way. The guy has lost the ability to miss bats and he's lost the ability to avoid walks. Who wants a smoke and mirrors guy in the pen? Who wants a guy who's making the infielders get all of his outs for him when the game is on the line? With no shift allowed?

People need to stop thinking veterans are better than unknown rookies. If they were, they probably would still have jobs with their current clubs, and they certainly wouldn't still be free agents when Spring Training opens. And you know what, if the rookies aren't cutting it, they can get a reliever 5x better than Hand by dealing a guy like Legumina. Like they did last year when they traded Gipson-Long for Michael Fulmer.

While I agree with your general stance here, it's going to be hard for them to use Legumina in the pen, or trade him for pen help, since they traded him about 4 months ago for Kyle Farmer.

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

While I agree with your general stance here, it's going to be hard for them to use Legumina in the pen, or trade him for pen help, since they traded him about 4 months ago for Kyle Farmer.

Mad props to the FO if they could pull it off, though.

[chpettit19]

19 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Mad props to the FO if they could pull it off, though.

Hey, I didn't say they shouldn't try. Just that it'd be hard. 

[DJL44]

14 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Guys will get waived during the spring and having open 40-man spots to take a shot at someone much younger than Hand is a better use of those spots, in my opinion.

If someone comes along who they like better they can cut the veteran and add the guy on waivers. 

[chpettit19]

22 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

If someone comes along who they like better they can cut the veteran and add the guy on waivers. 

Yes, but why would you sign the veteran to a major league deal when he's so easily passed up for the 40th man on the roster? If he's the first guy you'd cut it means you wouldn't have him on your 26-man roster. In that case signing him to a major league deal is a bad idea since you'd just have to DFA him at the end of spring anyways. That's kind of the point here. Signing a veteran to a major league deal to fill your 40th spot is bad roster management. You sign that guy to a minor league deal with an opt out date so the player can leave in May or June or whatever if he hasn't been called up yet. You don't tie yourself to a major league contract for a guy who isn't one of your 26 best players, and doesn't have options, if you're trying to win a division that year.