Nick Gordon and Kyle Farmer Give Twins' Bench a 1-2 Punch

[Craig Arko]

In any event, the bench should be a strength rather than an afterthought this year.

[specialiststeve]

Have posted several spots but do believe that Polanco should be the everyday DH. Give Gordon a shot at the everyday 2B. Know he has been under par so far but playing a position once a week or 10 days is fairly impossible. Let him play every day there and see what he can do... if he shows after a time, he can't do it .. am sure Farmer can do it. Polanco staying healthy is VERY important. One of those two ought to be to handle it... 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

6 hours ago, sun said:

My main concerns about Farmer is that his "double plays grounded into" seems high & he gets hit by a lot of pitches.  Rocco needs to find the best spot in the batting order for him to not hit as many GIDP's, and hope that getting hit by pitches doesn't cause him serious enough injury to miss time when we need him.

Double Plays Grounded Into

2021 NL  16 (6th)

2022 NL  20 (3rd)

 

Hit By Pitch

2021 NL  18 (2nd)

2022 NL  16 (4th)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/farmeky01.shtml

Would the shift ban help the GiDP numbers?

[sun]

56 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Would the shift ban help the GiDP numbers?

I don't know but I doubt that it matters much. Here's his spray charts which shows that he hits a lot of ground balls to the left side that aren't singles. He either improves his hitting with men on base or he doesn't. 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/kyle-farmer/14813/spray-charts?position=SS&type=battedball

[JD-TWINS]

16 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Who should start in the OF against left-handed pitching, though?

Vs. LH pitching:

Larnach in LF best LH splits - Taylor in CF - Gallo in RF (pretty sure he’s more neutral against LH than Kepler - not sure? One or the other playing right & batting 9th)

Taylor CF - Buxton DH - Correa SS - Miranda 1B - Farmer 3B - Polanco 2B - Jeffers C - Larnach LF - Gallo RF

(Taylor - Farmer - Jeffers all need to play v. LH pitching every time)

BENCH: Gordon, Kepler, Vazquez, Kirilof

[stringer bell]

Gordon proved to me last year that he was a major leaguer. Perhaps this year he will prove he is a regular. I really am not worried about who starts Game One, everybody will get chances. That is the way modern managers do things. Now, to the nuts and bolts of the roster composition--the present roster has Gordon, Gallo, Kepler, Larnach, Taylor and Buxton in the outfield. Add in that Kirilloff also has played more outfield than first in his major league career and there are too many big leaguers for everyone to their share of playing time and that is especially true of the left handed hitting corner outfielders. I honestly don't see Gordon as the first or second choice at any outfield spot and do remember, he's only played a couple of innings in right field. In the infield, Gordon doesn't look like the number one backup at short or third (again he's only played a few innings at third) and it would probably depend on the handedness of the opponent starter if he was the first choice to spell Polanco. The depth chart looked similar in 2022 and Gordon managed to get his chances and succeed. I wonder how 2023 will pan out.

[stringer bell]

Just now, JD-TWINS said:

Vs. LH pitching:

Larnach in LF best LH splits - Taylor in CF - Gallo in RF (pretty sure he’s more neutral against LH than Kepler - not sure? One or the other playing right & batting 9th)

Taylor CF - Buxton DH - Correa SS - Miranda 1B - Farmer 3B - Polanco 2B - Jeffers C - Larnach LF - Gallo RF

(Taylor - Farmer - Jeffers all need to play v. LH pitching every time)

BENCH: Gordon, Kepler, Vazquez, Kirilof

We might also see the scenario of Vazquez and Jeffers in the lineup at the same time, particularly with a guy (Farmer) who came to the majors as a catcher. 

[JD-TWINS]

2 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Gordon proved to me last year that he was a major leaguer. Perhaps this year he will prove he is a regular. I really am not worried about who starts Game One, everybody will get chances. That is the way modern managers do things. Now, to the nuts and bolts of the roster composition--the present roster has Gordon, Gallo, Kepler, Larnach, Taylor and Buxton in the outfield. Add in that Kirilloff also has played more outfield than first in his major league career and there are too many big leaguers for everyone to their share of playing time and that is especially true of the left handed hitting corner outfielders. I honestly don't see Gordon as the first or second choice at any outfield spot and do remember, he's only played a couple of innings in right field. In the infield, Gordon doesn't look like the number one backup at short or third (again he's only played a few innings at third) and it would probably depend on the handedness of the opponent starter if he was the first choice to spell Polanco. The depth chart looked similar in 2022 and Gordon managed to get his chances and succeed. I wonder how 2023 will pan out.

.272 in 405 AB’s…..28 doubles in ‘22. Overlooked is that he gained 25 lb in ‘22 & was healthy for first time in pro career. First year ever playing OF.

With guys we have coming up, he’s done in the infield for good! Maybe, if Kirilof washes out, he may get a shot at 1B in ‘24?

If he gets 550 AB’s between 80 games in LF & 50 games in CF……….essentially all games v. RH pitching his numbers project to:

12 HR……..38 doubles……. ..270 BA ……..70 RBI -to me, if Kirilof was projected to have those numbers, he’d be in the line-up every day. Gordon has to get an opportunity in the OF regularly - not unlike ‘22.

[Nashvilletwin]

Simple question for my fellow TDers:

Right now, which of these players individually would you trade Gordon straight up for (i.e. you can either have Gordon or any one of the others): Kepler, Gallo, Taylor, Larnach? Heck, throw in Wallner, Celestino and Martin too.

My answer is none of them at this exact moment and 100% absolutely not Kepler, Gallo, or Taylor (some could make a case for Larnach or perhaps one or two of the prospects).

This is not saying that Gordon should start every game or that there is not a role for the three vets; rather, it’s simply that currently - looking at expected contributions this season and into the future for the Minnesota Twins - Gordon is our second most valuable outfielder among our current crop of possible 2023 major leaguers in the organization.

Let the man play ball!

[JD-TWINS]

9 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

We might also see the scenario of Vazquez and Jeffers in the lineup at the same time, particularly with a guy (Farmer) who came to the majors as a catcher. 

Maybe, it’s a stretch though to not have a catcher sitting with the Manager, just in case, the whole game.

A team doesn’t strengthen its D by signing Farmer - Taylor - Gallo to solidify Defense & then play Farmer at Catcher because he’s caught a handful of times in the SHOW.

[JD-TWINS]

4 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Simple question for my fellow TDers:

Right now, which of these players individually would you trade Gordon straight up for (i.e. you can either have Gordon or any one of the others): Kepler, Gallo, Taylor, Larnach? Heck, throw in Wallner, Celestino and Martin too.

My answer is none of them at this exact moment and 100% absolutely not Kepler, Gallo, or Taylor (some could make a case for Larnach or perhaps one or two of the prospects).

This is not saying that Gordon should start every game or that there is not a role for the three vets; rather, it’s simply that currently - looking at expected contributions this season and into the future for the Minnesota Twins - Gordon is our second most valuable outfielder among our current crop of possible 2023 major leaguers in the organization.

Let the man play ball!

Absolutely!

[stringer bell]

1 minute ago, JD-TWINS said:

Maybe, it’s a stretch though to not have a catcher sitting with the Manager, just in case, the whole game.

A team doesn’t strengthen its D by signing Farmer - Taylor - Gallo to solidify Defense & then play Farmer at Catcher because he’s caught a handful of times in the SHOW.

The idea isn't to ever use Farmer at catcher. It is that there is an option in case the catcher gets injured. The Twins probably used Sanchez and Jeffers 15-20 times in the same lineup and never used a non-catcher. Having Farmer available in a crisis is better than putting a relief pitcher behind the plate, as was the scenario part of '22.

[miracleb]

I still struggle with valuing Gordon like many others on TD do.  If he could be used around the infield, his hitting production would be very valuable.  If he is now strictly an outfielder (like some think,) then his bat still doesn't really translate to the outfield.

[Nashvilletwin]

9 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Maybe, it’s a stretch though to not have a catcher sitting with the Manager, just in case, the whole game.

A team doesn’t strengthen its D by signing Farmer - Taylor - Gallo to solidify Defense & then play Farmer at Catcher because he’s caught a handful of times in the SHOW.

Or Gallo at 1B as well - if he’s going to hit a buckninety and K 30+% of the time, he either has to be playing a plus defensive position or not at all.

[stringer bell]

1 hour ago, miracleb said:

I still struggle with valuing Gordon like many others on TD do.  If he could be used around the infield, his hitting production would be very valuable.  If he is now strictly an outfielder (like some think,) then hit bat still doesn't really translate to the outfield.

I don't think he's strictly an outfielder, but he's (at best) third on the depth chart at shortstop and third base. If Polanco suffered an injury, he might even get regular play at second. Both the eye test and metrics indicate he's not a good fielder at second and short, but he got some play at both positions last year. His best defensive position (left field) is way down on the spectrum of importance and he's league average there. 

[stringer bell]

12 hours ago, sun said:

I don't know but I doubt that it matters much. Here's his spray charts which shows that he hits a lot of ground balls to the left side that aren't singles. He either improves his hitting with men on base or he doesn't. 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/kyle-farmer/14813/spray-charts?position=SS&type=battedball

Yes, Farmer did hit into a high number of DPs, but to say he wasn't good with runners on is incorrect IMHO. His OPS with RiSP last season was .818 and he drove in 60 runners in 141 plate appearances, both far better than the Twins in aggregate last season. Gio had three more PAs with RiSP and had 8 less RBI, for example, with a similar number of GDPs.

[Nashvilletwin]

1 hour ago, miracleb said:

I still struggle with valuing Gordon like many others on TD do.  If he could be used around the infield, his hitting production would be very valuable.  If he is now strictly an outfielder (like some think,) then hit bat still doesn't really translate to the outfield.

So are you trading Gordon for Kepler, Gallo or Taylor straight up? Which of those four are most valuable to this organization going forward? Or is your comment about Gordon as an outfielder more a statement about how bad our outfield really is (which is a perfectly defensible point of view btw)?

[Major League Ready]

18 hours ago, gman said:

Farmer is a free agent in 2025 and Gordon a free agent in 2028. So for multiple years the two could provide solid backups at a near starting level all around the field. For a team that stresses the ability to play multiple positions, I  think they can cover everywhere on the field but the mound. As far as Kepler and Gallo go, I don't think either will be here beyond this year and the team needs to develop players in their position going forward.

Lewis is going to eventually be the back-up SS so the better scenario is Martin plays well enough to force his way onto the roster and he takes Farmer's place.  That duo could be in place for 5 years instead of two.  Plus, Martin offers more flexibility and better base running / stealing.

[MGX]

4 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Simple question for my fellow TDers:

Right now, which of these players individually would you trade Gordon straight up for (i.e. you can either have Gordon or any one of the others): Kepler, Gallo, Taylor, Larnach? Heck, throw in Wallner, Celestino and Martin too.

My answer is none of them at this exact moment and 100% absolutely not Kepler, Gallo, or Taylor (some could make a case for Larnach or perhaps one or two of the prospects).

This is not saying that Gordon should start every game or that there is not a role for the three vets; rather, it’s simply that currently - looking at expected contributions this season and into the future for the Minnesota Twins - Gordon is our second most valuable outfielder among our current crop of possible 2023 major leaguers in the organization.

Let the man play ball!

Agree 100%. Larnach is the only one I would consider.

[MGX]

We have to remember Gordon is just getting started. He didn't play much in '21 & last year when he did get in he was thrown into 5 different positions on the field and that doesn't include his appearance as a Pitcher. I think it's a little early to pigeon hole him as subpar defender. How about we give him a chance to prove himself in the field like he did with the bat last year. Especially considering the names (in the corner OF) being talked about starting ahead of him didn't produce at all last year.  

 

[rwilfong86]

Gordon's development last season was one of the few bright spots. I hope this season brings better base running and less outs on the basepaths.

[bighat]

On 2/11/2023 at 2:10 PM, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Why assume Gordon won’t be the everyday left fielder? Gallo and Kepler need to earn their spot in the lineup just like Gordon and Larnach

Frankly I think Gordon and Buxton have earned starting spots and the rest of the guys should compete for the 3rd OF spot in Spring Training. 

[JD-TWINS]

5 hours ago, stringer bell said:

The idea isn't to ever use Farmer at catcher. It is that there is an option in case the catcher gets injured. The Twins probably used Sanchez and Jeffers 15-20 times in the same lineup and never used a non-catcher. Having Farmer available in a crisis is better than putting a relief pitcher behind the plate, as was the scenario part of '22.

“……in case the Catcher gets injured…” …that’s what my comment about having a catcher sitting with the Manager, just in case…….means.

I don’t see us, in any one game, starting Vazquez & Jeffers together because nobody in the organization, especially Farmer, wants to see Farmer catching. It’s Russian Roulette with our needed Utility guy.

Maybe, a possibility in the 8th or 9th as a pinch hitter to win the game we could see them expose this type of situation with Jeffers or Vazquez?

4 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

So are you trading Gordon for Kepler, Gallo or Taylor straight up? Which of those four are most valuable to this organization going forward? Or is your comment about Gordon as an outfielder more a statement about how bad our outfield really is (which is a perfectly defensible point of view btw)?

Bad outfield is defensible????? Six guys penciled on roster now.

3 former Gold Gloves - plus the guy most people thought would win Gold Glove in RF last year if he didn’t finish the year hurt.

Gordon is a guy you defend against this group of 4.

Other guy is Larnach - many Twins followers think he’s a #3 hitter if healthy.

………………

Balance of my defense:

Gallo is hit & miss offensively & even with a GG difficult to defend/be too excited about, granted………potential 32 HR power

Taylor is a GG platoon against lefties and a late inning pinch runner - pinch hitter against lefties - defensive replacement if needed.

Buxton doesn’t hold up health wise but he contributes when he plays - Gordon & Taylor letting him sit half the games should help his availability.

Kepler will hit 10 HR - 25 doubles & play exceptionally well in RF & will hopefully get his BA to .255 plus & thus RBI up. He may not start enough to get 25 doubles but if he gets 125 starts these numbers are gettable.

Can’t imagine there’s 5 other groups in the game that can compare in depth - power - defense. We’re 6 deep defensively with 2 potential mashers & 3 other potential doubles machines.

[stringer bell]

25 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

I don’t see us, in any one game, starting Vazquez & Jeffers together because nobody in the organization, especially Farmer, wants to see Farmer catching. It’s Russian Roulette with our needed Utility guy  

That is exactly what Rocco did last year when the “third catcher” was Jhon Romero. I think having a guy that has caught this decade in MLB as the “break glass in case of emergency” catcher makes it very plausible to start both catchers on occasion. Yes, I’m sure they don’t want Farmer behind the dish, except in a dire emergency, and they’d sacrifice the DH before putting him behind the plate, but the door won’t be closed to keeping the alternate catcher on the bench. 

[Nashvilletwin]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

Bad outfield is defensible????? Six guys penciled on roster now.

Some might say that hitting matters too; if Buxton is not healthy and Taylor, Gallo and Kepler are your starting OF (as many on this site are suggesting by saying Gordon is no better than a 4th outfielder) that group is very, very light hitting. So, some might not be that impressed with the overall capabilities of that group.  

 If everyone is healthy, I think our best outfield is Buxton, Gordon and Larnach. 

[python85]

On 2/12/2023 at 10:05 AM, Nashvilletwin said:

So are you trading Gordon for Kepler, Gallo or Taylor straight up

This is not the question to be asking when talking about who should be playing OF this year. Gordon is under control through 2028 and each of those three players has 1 year of control left. Of course I am not trading Gordon for any one of them. That being said I think Kepler for sure and maybe the other two give the team a better chance to win this year, and that is the question we should be asking when talking about playing time.

[Heiny]

Actually, I think there may still be a trade before the regular season starts.   I think it will be Kepler or Larnach.(praying it's not Larnach).  Howeverrrr,  I still don't think that Kepler is a bad hitter.  I think he is an average hitter who was bothered by the toe injury last year.  Ok, he has had two sub-par years, but I can very easily see him getting his avg. up to .250 with 25 homers.  And with his superior defense, I could like that alot.  I may be in the minority here, but I just don't think Kepler is as bad an offensive player as he is being credited lately.  I look for a bounce back from Kep,  yet I think he would be the most likely trade chip to unclog our outfield redundancy.  I still think Larnach will be a star and will take over RF when he starts to shine. In any case, however things turn out, I am excited for baseball and I'll see you at the ballpark.