The Mind Trick that Afflicts Twins Fans

[Nashvilletwin]

5 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

Hubert Horatio Humphrey was the last public person who I actually felt was telling the truth (at least most of the time).

I loved Hubert. 

[chpettit19]

39 minutes ago, adorduan said:

Here's the problem with your argument. You are projecting your beliefs without proof. you say Buxton was spending hours a day preparing to try to play. yet you admit that the team never said that. So maybe he was and maybe he wasn't. Unless you were in the room with him, you are just guessing. Same with the Pohlad argument. Unless you were in the room with him and the other leaders, you have no idea what they said or were working or had agreed to. You claim people are filling in the blanks because they don't have all the information. you are doing the same thing just in the other direction. Again, unless you are physically there in the room with these people all the time, you are just guessing as to what's really going on.

The team did say that about Buxton. On multiple occasions Rocco talked about how much time Buxton had to put in to just be able to walk around normal let alone run, hit, and throw. They talked about a lot of his treatment, actually. Told us about the platelet-rich plasma injections. Told us about his MRI on his hip. 

“It’s been a strenuous, truly 24-hour-a-day job for him to take the field each day. That’s what he deals with and he’s open to dealing with that every day. There are days where walking is not easy and he ends up playing in the game that day, and as a whole playing well.”
-Rocco Baldelli July 14th

[Riverbrian]

On 2/5/2023 at 4:20 PM, Greggory Masterson said:

Our brains play tricks on us. One is forgetting things exist when we don't see them.

 

 

5 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Are fans seeing other organizations saying more than the Twins do? I'm seriously surprised every time I see these kinds of comments. The fans want the Twins to win, but they also want them to give all their secrets away publicly so they have an idea of what's going on. Why in the world would Rocco come out before a game and say Buxton, or any player, isn't feeling 100% that day so that's why he won't be stealing bases today? Why would you ever come out and tell your competitors which players are struggling with what during the season? Why would you ever tell your competitors what your team building strategy is? I seriously don't understand why fans think the Twins should, or would, do this. 

"Hey, be more competitive, but also tell the whole world how you're going to do it!" is a weird stance to me. Seriously don't understand what fans think the team would gain from that.

Great Article and this is a great post. 

Fans demand full disclosure, complete transparency but if actual inside information was provided, a large segment of the fan base would strip that meat from the bone in seconds. 

We want the truth... We can't handle the truth. 

As a response to our reactions to almost everything. Young Folks are graduating with public relations degrees by the thousands in universities across the country and put to work handling us and our reactions. Which just drives us further and further from the truth. 

If we are not getting the truth... look in the mirror... it's our fault. 

Great article... good luck with your posting of truth and let's watch what happens when you present it. 

[LastOnePicked]

1 minute ago, Riverbrian said:

As a response to our reactions to almost everything. Young Folks are graduating with public relations degrees by the thousands in universities across the country and put to work handling us and our reactions. Which just drives us further and further from the truth. 

I feel like we've lost the plot somewhere here.

First of all, reactions to everything are varied. Some are emotional, and some aren't. Some are measured and some are reactive. Some are curious and some are accusatory. This is true whether we're talking about the Marlins trade or a spy balloon.

But if an organization decides it's afraid of its constituents or its customers, then that's on them, not on the constituents or customers. Jon Stewart recently talked about being a comedian, and he expressed his belief that audiences don't owe a comic anything. Comics dish out the world as they see it, audiences react, and comics just have to be better, smarter and quicker. Just please don't jump onstage and slap us, he added.

Are you saying the Twins are afraid of fan backlash to more transparent assessments of their players' injuries? To more clear-eyed evaluations of their failures? If so, tough cookies. Toughen up. Take your lumps. Learn and be better for it. No one expects the team to reveal "secrets" or competitive advantages, but it would be VERY refreshing to hear a representative of the organization say something along the lines of "2022 was an F-minus in terms of grades. We couldn't keep guys healthy, but we also couldn't seal the deal in late innings. We collapsed. We know many fans are mad about our style of play. We've lost a lot of trust over the last few years. We have to make changes, and winning a World Series is the only goal we care about from here until we make it or get fired trying." If they SAID that, and MEANT that, it would likely quiet a lot of the more vehement reactions they're so afriad of.

Right now, they're generating some of the animosity with all the back-patting, corporate jargon and self-congratulatory nonsense.

[Greggory Masterson]

12 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

It would be VERY refreshing to hear a representative of the organization say something along the lines of "2022 was an F-minus in terms of grades. We couldn't keep guys healthy, but we also couldn't seal the deal in late innings. We collapsed. We know many fans are mad about our style of play. We've lost a lot of trust over the last few years. We have to make changes, and winning a World Series is the only goal we care about from here until we make it or get fired trying." If they SAID that, and MEANT that, it would likely quiet a lot of the more vehement reactions they're so afriad of.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that it would make any difference. Whether or not they say "It's our fault," "We were bitten by an uncontrollable injury bug" or anything in-between, they still should be judged by their process and results. Latching onto the contrived things they say to the public is just noise.

One strange finding that's relevant to this conversation is that leaders who apologize for their mistakes are actually viewed as less competent on average for the same type of mistake, as opposed to leaders who don't apologize or don't even acknowledge their mistakes at all.

I, personally, would love a completely transparent view and active feedback and self-assessment being communicated, like you suggested here, but even if it did happen, I think the reaction would be worse than you would expect. How much the fans' reaction should really matter is debatable, but it's still worth considering.

[DocBauer]

I'm just ticked off that now I keep trying to see my nose when I look forward.

[LastOnePicked]

1 hour ago, Greggory Masterson said:

One strange finding that's relevant to this conversation is that leaders who apologize for their mistakes are actually viewed as less competent on average for the same type of mistake, as opposed to leaders who don't apologize or don't even acknowledge their mistakes at all.

I'd need to review the research you cite here, but even assuming its accurate, my sample FO statement isn't an apology. It's an assessment of their development that more accurately matches reality. Followed by a clear statement of what was learned or what will be done differently. That, to me, is what's missing. I get the impression from their statements/interviews that this FO still thinks they're the smartest guys in the room but just with dismal luck. Luck may not love the Twins these days, true, but so many of their decisions about personnel are worth questioning.

[chpettit19]

17 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

I'd need to review the research you cite here, but even assuming its accurate, my sample FO statement isn't an apology. It's an assessment of their development that more accurately matches reality. Followed by a clear statement of what was learned or what will be done differently. That, to me, is what's missing. I get the impression from their statements/interviews that this FO still thinks they're the smartest guys in the room but just with dismal luck. Luck may not love the Twins these days, true, but so many of their decisions about personnel are worth questioning.

I think their MLB decisions have been less than stellar, and they should acknowledge that. I think their development decisions have actually been quite good, but that's where the luck has killed them. If Canterino were fronting this rotation, and Lewis and Kirilloff were penciled into the middle of the order I'd think the narrative on the FO would be very different. Those are 3 hard luck examples where it looks like they got it right with those guys, but the baseball gods had different ideas about their bodies holding up.

But the decisions made at the MLB level have looked much worse. The pitching decisions especially. Pagan standing out right now. I don't know what a realistic statement from a FO about such things is, though. "Things didn't work out as we'd planned, and we'll adjust things to hopefully make better decisions in the future" sounds about as realistic as possible. What else are they supposed to say?

[LastOnePicked]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Those are 3 hard luck examples where it looks like they got it right with those guys, but the baseball gods had different ideas about their bodies holding up.

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, to lose one top prospect may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose nearly all of them looks like carelessness.

Results are really all that matter. If they can't get a top prospect into the rotation or the lineup, and the only answer is "well the baseball Gods are fickle," then I'm not sure what they can expect the fans to say, either. It may not be fair and it may not be right, but no one can change this narrative but the organization itself. It's just got nothing to do with the fans at this point. If anything, we've been patient and hopeful to a fault.

[dxpavelka]

9 hours ago, Mark G said:

I know what you are saying, but I would respectfully disagree.  It is not America's game, it is America's pastime.  It has been part of the country's culture for well over a century.  It is a great distraction from the rest of the world.  It is something kids have dreamt about for lifetimes.  We idolize the players (or at least used to).  We pay money to see them play a game that we ourselves played and still could, if we slow it down to our level.  Why?  Because there is something magical about it.  And since we are paying to see it, the folks selling it to us should be a bit more considerate to their customers.  It becomes "our" team after a while, even if we do not actually own it.  They do not see it that way, it appears, so what we see today is the result.  It could be so much different.  Couldn't it?  

But it's not.  If it could it would.

[adorduan]

6 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

The team did say that about Buxton. On multiple occasions Rocco talked about how much time Buxton had to put in to just be able to walk around normal let alone run, hit, and throw. They talked about a lot of his treatment, actually. Told us about the platelet-rich plasma injections. Told us about his MRI on his hip. 

“It’s been a strenuous, truly 24-hour-a-day job for him to take the field each day. That’s what he deals with and he’s open to dealing with that every day. There are days where walking is not easy and he ends up playing in the game that day, and as a whole playing well.”
-Rocco Baldelli July 14th

This is from the OP.

"Why? Because the team did not make any statement on his status on a day-to-day basis."

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, adorduan said:

This is from the OP.

"Why? Because the team did not make any statement on his status on a day-to-day basis."

"On a day-to-day basis" is the point of that sentence the way I read it. I read the OP as the author saying that the lack of constant updates was what frustrated fans, not that there were never updates.

[Greggory Masterson]

14 minutes ago, adorduan said:

This is from the OP.

"Why? Because the team did not make any statement on his status on a day-to-day basis."

 

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

"On a day-to-day basis" is the point of that sentence the way I read it. I read the OP as the author saying that the lack of constant updates was what frustrated fans, not that there were never updates.

There was very little information given early in the season. The Rocco quote in question was given July 14th, which, to my recollection, was the first time they pulled back the curtain, over 2 months since the original scare. In the meantime, the club rarely if ever gave updates on his status, treatment, or expectations, which is what has fans so frustrated (beyond the fact that fans weren’t able to watch Buxton, which is quite the treat).

[chpettit19]

3 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, to lose one top prospect may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose nearly all of them looks like carelessness.

Results are really all that matter. If they can't get a top prospect into the rotation or the lineup, and the only answer is "well the baseball Gods are fickle," then I'm not sure what they can expect the fans to say, either. It may not be fair and it may not be right, but no one can change this narrative but the organization itself. It's just got nothing to do with the fans at this point. If anything, we've been patient and hopeful to a fault.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with that paraphrased quote and say it's pretty useless. It's unreasonable to have expected them to know Lewis would blow out his knee walking or Kirilloff's wrist would require a super rare surgery that almost no pro athlete ever has to go through. And before anyone says "they shouldn't have put him in CF where he'd have to jump" I'll go ahead and ask if NBA players should just retire when they tear an ACL and never jump again. You're allowed to be mad at them for such things, but it feels awfully unreasonable to me.

While I agree that results are all that matter I find it pretty hard to blame them for Kirilloff's wrist, Lewis' knee, or Canterino's arm. Canterino going to Rice is the only sort of thing you can point to there as they're well known for pitchers going pro and breaking down. Fans being mad that those 3 guys all had those injury problems has absolutely everything to do with the fans. Fans are allowed to step back and say "dang, that sucks, but it's unrealistic to expect any FO to know that 3 guys are going to lose season after season to injuries like this." That's allowed.

The team seems to have learned after back to back seasons of their top prospects getting hurt that they can't rely on them and have loaded up on veterans at Larnach, Kirilloff, and Lewis' positions. So now other, and some of the same, fans are mad that they aren't clearing the way for the young guys. That's another reason I question what they're supposed to say and do. They've been bad at reclamation project, big league pitching decisions. I stipulated that. But fans are allowed to separate things and say "the FO has been bad at this, good at that, and unlucky over here." You don't lose your fan card by being nuanced. And the FO can't say something that will please all fans. And they can't be expected to explain everything to fans and give away their strategies and player information.

[chpettit19]

13 minutes ago, Greggory Masterson said:

 

There was very little information given early in the season. The Rocco quote in question was given July 14th, which, to my recollection, was the first time they pulled back the curtain, over 2 months since the original scare. In the meantime, the club rarely if ever gave updates on his status, treatment, or expectations, which is what has fans so frustrated (beyond the fact that fans weren’t able to watch Buxton, which is quite the treat).

On July 14th Buxton was on pace to play 130 games. They told us immediately that there was no structural damage and he returned less than a week later. Then they told us they were going to manage his workload as he was recovering. And he didn't miss anymore real stretches of time. What updates were they supposed to give? His knee was bothering him, but he was still playing. They told us time and time again that he was receiving treatment and days off and/or DH days was what was called for/their plan.

I seriously don't understand why fans think teams should give them all this information. What teams are giving this out? Are NFL teams, NBA teams, NHL teams, any teams giving day-to-day updates on treatment? Or when a player is literally playing the games giving status updates? I mean he had played nearly 80% of the team's games on July 14th. We're making it sound like he wasn't there and Rocco wasn't answering questions about him every time he was DHing instead of playing CF.

[Greggory Masterson]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

On July 14th Buxton was on pace to play 130 games. They told us immediately that there was no structural damage and he returned less than a week later. Then they told us they were going to manage his workload as he was recovering. And he didn't miss anymore real stretches of time. What updates were they supposed to give? His knee was bothering him, but he was still playing. They told us time and time again that he was receiving treatment and days off and/or DH days was what was called for/their plan.

I seriously don't understand why fans think teams should give them all this information. What teams are giving this out? Are NFL teams, NBA teams, NHL teams, any teams giving day-to-day updates on treatment? Or when a player is literally playing the games giving status updates? I mean he had played nearly 80% of the team's games on July 14th. We're making it sound like he wasn't there and Rocco wasn't answering questions about him every time he was DHing instead of playing CF.

That was actually the most frustrating part. He wasn't missing extended bouts, he was in the lineup almost every day, and it was clear that he was going through something--with no warning as to when he would need a day off. Because of this lack of warning, far too many fans started seeing it as an incompetent handling of his status or there being no plan at all, at it wasn't warranted.

If I were ever a GM or something like that, I would never say anything public so that I didn't open my big yapper and say something I shouldn't, so I guess this FO is more transparent than I would ever be.

[chpettit19]

Just now, Greggory Masterson said:

That was actually the most frustrating part. He wasn't missing extended bouts, he was in the lineup almost every day, and it was clear that he was going through something--with no warning as to when he would need a day off. Because of this lack of warning, far too many fans started seeing it as an incompetent handling of his status or there being no plan at all, at it wasn't warranted.

If I were ever a GM or something like that, I would never say anything public so that I didn't open my big yapper and say something I shouldn't, so I guess this FO is more transparent than I would ever be.

Yeah, fans are generally just going to feel however they want to feel no matter what the team says. If they say something against the fan's thought process they say it's just spin. The forced pressers everyday are an interesting phenomenon. I don't think they're productive. Especially in a sport that plays nearly everyday. How much could change day to day? Eventually their statements are the exact same thing everyday. "If he can play he'll play, if he can't he won't, if he's in the middle he'll DH." But the reporters had to ask every day. Then fans get cranky that Rocco didn't Mr Miyagi his knee.

[Mark G]

6 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

On July 14th Buxton was on pace to play 130 games. They told us immediately that there was no structural damage and he returned less than a week later. Then they told us they were going to manage his workload as he was recovering. And he didn't miss anymore real stretches of time. What updates were they supposed to give? His knee was bothering him, but he was still playing. They told us time and time again that he was receiving treatment and days off and/or DH days was what was called for/their plan.

I seriously don't understand why fans think teams should give them all this information. What teams are giving this out? Are NFL teams, NBA teams, NHL teams, any teams giving day-to-day updates on treatment? Or when a player is literally playing the games giving status updates? I mean he had played nearly 80% of the team's games on July 14th. We're making it sound like he wasn't there and Rocco wasn't answering questions about him every time he was DHing instead of playing CF.

Bear with me on this one, it is likely to be pretty long. 😬

I agree that none of the major sports teams give the fans the kind of information that makes them feel a part of the team; as I said previously, the "our team" mindset.  But, as I see it, sports is just one aspect of life where people in general, fans or not, want to know what they are being told is true and what they are being sold is real, and worth it.  

We want honesty and forthcoming information throughout all aspects of life.  Our civic leaders, our employers, the business' we purchase from, the places we bank.......I could go on for a while.  Nowhere else do we tolerate being left in the dark, or just flat out lied to in some instances, and still do business with them.  If any other entity were to act like sports franchises the Attorney General, the BBB, the consumer protection agencies, and so on, and so on, would be all over them.  So what makes sports so different?  I think it is because of our unique relationship with them; again, the "our team" outlook.  Any other personalities or celebrities don't have the unique draw athletes do.  And other celebrity areas of entertainment seek out the press to give all kinds of behind the scenes info about how things are filmed, who their favorite people are with, etc., etc., etc.  Celebrity press people actually go too far sometimes (at least in this extremely humble observer's opinion).  But can you name anyone (I can't) that feels like Yellowstone is "our" series?  Or an album?  Or a movie?  We bond to a team almost as much as we bond to our jobs and our churches.  I know a lot of people who would put their family first, but their favorite team second, even above job and other interests.  I guess that is why we don't want to be shut out of the flow of information that makes waiting for next season worth it; kind of like Twins Daily.  This is our flow of information we can't get elsewhere.  But is it enough?  Was that the point of the article?  Maybe, maybe not, I won't speak for Greggory, but it sure helps keep me tuning in.  

Again, I get that all sports franchises do it to one extent or another, but the unique relationship between team and fan almost screams that is a bad business model.   Any information they might give you and me is already known by the other teams anyway.  They all pay scouts to watch their opposition; they are experts at seeing the kinds of things we are asking about; they aren't giving away any secrets by answering a reporter's question.  Because at the end of the day, it is as much of a business as any other, and I will not purchase something from anyone unless I have all the information I need to make an informed decision.  The Twins might take heed of what a lot of their fans are telling them, which is "hey, remember us?  We are in this too, you know".

[Mark G]

6 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Yeah, fans are generally just going to feel however they want to feel no matter what the team says. If they say something against the fan's thought process they say it's just spin. The forced pressers everyday are an interesting phenomenon. I don't think they're productive. Especially in a sport that plays nearly everyday. How much could change day to day? Eventually their statements are the exact same thing everyday. "If he can play he'll play, if he can't he won't, if he's in the middle he'll DH." But the reporters had to ask every day. Then fans get cranky that Rocco didn't Mr Miyagi his knee.

Very true, but they are the ones telling us much of the time that the injury status for a player is "day to day".  So, logically, someone is going to ask each day, if that is the only info given to them.  

How many times have we seen "day to day" turn into the IL?  Do they truly not know the extent of most injuries?  Do the players and trainers not connect with the manager and coaches? (Actually, I do wonder at times about that, because how many times has Rocco told reporters he hasn't talked to the player and does not know the status as of that moment.......but I digress)  Day to day is quite often a cop out; a way of answering a question without answering the question.    

[NotAboutWinning]

There is a difference between being consumers of a product and shareholders of a company. Shareholders are exposed operational information.. We are consumers. Consumers receive product information via press releases and advertising. While we may be extremely emotionally invested, we are not actual investors... Putting on fireproof hat now.

[Riverbrian]

16 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

I feel like we've lost the plot somewhere here.

First of all, reactions to everything are varied. Some are emotional, and some aren't. Some are measured and some are reactive. Some are curious and some are accusatory. This is true whether we're talking about the Marlins trade or a spy balloon.

But if an organization decides it's afraid of its constituents or its customers, then that's on them, not on the constituents or customers. Jon Stewart recently talked about being a comedian, and he expressed his belief that audiences don't owe a comic anything. Comics dish out the world as they see it, audiences react, and comics just have to be better, smarter and quicker. Just please don't jump onstage and slap us, he added.

Are you saying the Twins are afraid of fan backlash to more transparent assessments of their players' injuries? To more clear-eyed evaluations of their failures? If so, tough cookies. Toughen up. Take your lumps. Learn and be better for it. No one expects the team to reveal "secrets" or competitive advantages, but it would be VERY refreshing to hear a representative of the organization say something along the lines of "2022 was an F-minus in terms of grades. We couldn't keep guys healthy, but we also couldn't seal the deal in late innings. We collapsed. We know many fans are mad about our style of play. We've lost a lot of trust over the last few years. We have to make changes, and winning a World Series is the only goal we care about from here until we make it or get fired trying." If they SAID that, and MEANT that, it would likely quiet a lot of the more vehement reactions they're so afriad of.

Right now, they're generating some of the animosity with all the back-patting, corporate jargon and self-congratulatory nonsense.

From the Marlins trade to spy balloons. I have never seen what you are talking about in this post. 

The only thing that I will agree with is that "reactions are varied". 

You are asking for "a representative of the organization to say something along the lines of 2022 was an F-minus in terms of grades". 

Here's your variance because I'm not asking for that.

You already believe that the 2022 was an F-minus... I don't believe it was an F-minus but maybe if this representative works hard enough... maybe they can convince me. 

Is this really what you expect? 

🤔

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, Mark G said:

Bear with me on this one, it is likely to be pretty long. 😬

I agree that none of the major sports teams give the fans the kind of information that makes them feel a part of the team; as I said previously, the "our team" mindset.  But, as I see it, sports is just one aspect of life where people in general, fans or not, want to know what they are being told is true and what they are being sold is real, and worth it.  

We want honesty and forthcoming information throughout all aspects of life.  Our civic leaders, our employers, the business' we purchase from, the places we bank.......I could go on for a while.  Nowhere else do we tolerate being left in the dark, or just flat out lied to in some instances, and still do business with them.  If any other entity were to act like sports franchises the Attorney General, the BBB, the consumer protection agencies, and so on, and so on, would be all over them.  So what makes sports so different?  I think it is because of our unique relationship with them; again, the "our team" outlook.  Any other personalities or celebrities don't have the unique draw athletes do.  And other celebrity areas of entertainment seek out the press to give all kinds of behind the scenes info about how things are filmed, who their favorite people are with, etc., etc., etc.  Celebrity press people actually go too far sometimes (at least in this extremely humble observer's opinion).  But can you name anyone (I can't) that feels like Yellowstone is "our" series?  Or an album?  Or a movie?  We bond to a team almost as much as we bond to our jobs and our churches.  I know a lot of people who would put their family first, but their favorite team second, even above job and other interests.  I guess that is why we don't want to be shut out of the flow of information that makes waiting for next season worth it; kind of like Twins Daily.  This is our flow of information we can't get elsewhere.  But is it enough?  Was that the point of the article?  Maybe, maybe not, I won't speak for Greggory, but it sure helps keep me tuning in.  

Again, I get that all sports franchises do it to one extent or another, but the unique relationship between team and fan almost screams that is a bad business model.   Any information they might give you and me is already known by the other teams anyway.  They all pay scouts to watch their opposition; they are experts at seeing the kinds of things we are asking about; they aren't giving away any secrets by answering a reporter's question.  Because at the end of the day, it is as much of a business as any other, and I will not purchase something from anyone unless I have all the information I need to make an informed decision.  The Twins might take heed of what a lot of their fans are telling them, which is "hey, remember us?  We are in this too, you know".

Sports is not different than the other aspects of life. 

Those Civic leaders don't get elected unless they tell the majority what the majority wants to hear. They don't even have to do what they say they will do. They just have to tell them. 

Your employers work behind closed doors from time to time. Your employers are not walking in and announcing that 3 people are going to be cut in the next month. Your supervisor isn't telling you that Angie hasn't been here all week because she is in rehab while you are adding her work to your schedule. 

The business you purchase from? Tony the Tiger disagrees with you. Are Frosted Flakes Really that great? 

[chpettit19]

4 hours ago, Mark G said:

Bear with me on this one, it is likely to be pretty long. 😬

I agree that none of the major sports teams give the fans the kind of information that makes them feel a part of the team; as I said previously, the "our team" mindset.  But, as I see it, sports is just one aspect of life where people in general, fans or not, want to know what they are being told is true and what they are being sold is real, and worth it.  

We want honesty and forthcoming information throughout all aspects of life.  Our civic leaders, our employers, the business' we purchase from, the places we bank.......I could go on for a while.  Nowhere else do we tolerate being left in the dark, or just flat out lied to in some instances, and still do business with them.  If any other entity were to act like sports franchises the Attorney General, the BBB, the consumer protection agencies, and so on, and so on, would be all over them.  So what makes sports so different?  I think it is because of our unique relationship with them; again, the "our team" outlook.  Any other personalities or celebrities don't have the unique draw athletes do.  And other celebrity areas of entertainment seek out the press to give all kinds of behind the scenes info about how things are filmed, who their favorite people are with, etc., etc., etc.  Celebrity press people actually go too far sometimes (at least in this extremely humble observer's opinion).  But can you name anyone (I can't) that feels like Yellowstone is "our" series?  Or an album?  Or a movie?  We bond to a team almost as much as we bond to our jobs and our churches.  I know a lot of people who would put their family first, but their favorite team second, even above job and other interests.  I guess that is why we don't want to be shut out of the flow of information that makes waiting for next season worth it; kind of like Twins Daily.  This is our flow of information we can't get elsewhere.  But is it enough?  Was that the point of the article?  Maybe, maybe not, I won't speak for Greggory, but it sure helps keep me tuning in.  

Again, I get that all sports franchises do it to one extent or another, but the unique relationship between team and fan almost screams that is a bad business model.   Any information they might give you and me is already known by the other teams anyway.  They all pay scouts to watch their opposition; they are experts at seeing the kinds of things we are asking about; they aren't giving away any secrets by answering a reporter's question.  Because at the end of the day, it is as much of a business as any other, and I will not purchase something from anyone unless I have all the information I need to make an informed decision.  The Twins might take heed of what a lot of their fans are telling them, which is "hey, remember us?  We are in this too, you know".

Sorry, mine got long, too...

Yeah, as a couple people already pointed out, I disagree with the stance that we're treated any different by sports franchises than our civic leaders (you really think they're telling the truth?), employers, the businesses we purchase from, or the places we bank. Civic leaders lie to us constantly. Campaigning is literally just them telling whatever segment of the population they want to vote for them what that segment wants to hear. They aren't transparent with a gosh darn thing. Unless you're running the company there's a who lot you aren't told about the behind the scenes of a company. Your employers don't tell you anything you don't need to know. Businesses we buy from? They literally have patents and copywrites so that we don't know what their "secret recipes" are. Corporate secrecy is the key to a whole bunch of the businesses we buy from. I work hand in hand with Amazon everyday and they won't tell me how they make decisions on anything. Banks give you the baseline of what you need to know about your account, but they're not giving us details about how the bank is run or their business strategies.

I think the difference between those things and sports is that some fans feel they're personally owed information about the athletes and teams because they build that emotional connection. Same reason some people are so enamored with the personal lives of celebrities. They build an imagined connection with them through their art (music, movies, whatever) and decide that means they're owed more information. People being irrational about "their teams" doesn't mean the organizations owe us information on what Byron Buxton is doing for rehab everyday. It doesn't mean we're privy to Correa's ankle imaging. We're kept in the dark about the main going ons of everything you've listed, but then you expect sports teams to be open because people grow overly attached to grown men playing a game. I don't buy it.

The information some fans are asking for is absolutely not known by the other teams. The other teams have general ideas about things, but they all have their own proprietary data and info. Giving out the medical information on a player just because fans want to know would give the other team an advantage. Rocco saying "Buxton is sitting on this day, this day, and this day, and Correa is sitting this day" allows the other manager to manage his pitching accordingly. Why would we want that? Telling the fans what their offseason strategy is would cost them a great deal of leverage in trade and contract negotiations. Why would we want that?

My argument would be that the internet, 24 hr "news cycle," and the constant leaking of information has lead fans to believe they're "owed" more and more. We're not. Byron Buxton doesn't owe me his treatment regiment. It's ridiculous to me to suggest that's information I deserve, or even need. The Twins don't owe me their offseason game plan. It's ridiculous to me to suggest that's information I deserve, or even need. What we're "owed" is the player and team's best efforts to provide an entertaining product on the field. That's what we pay them for. But my definition of entertaining is different than yours which is different than everyone else's. Just like Coke "owes" us a tasty beverage. That's what we pay them for. But my definition of tasty is different than yours which is different than everyone else's. We aren't owed the secret recipe, the business plan, or the health status of their employees.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I disagree with the stance that we're treated any different by sports franchises than our civic leaders... They aren't transparent with a gosh darn thing.

On the contrary, the Mets had no problem telling national reporters what their secondary offer to Correa was after the Mets rejected Correa's ankle scans. To translate this into Corporatespeak: "Dear Twins or other mystery team, here is our new offer to Correa: 6/157. Please beat it and release us from this negotiation." Transparent as a sunny day.

The Twins not only beat that offer (for a player no other team really wanted that much), they beat it by 25%. 

 

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

But my definition of tasty is different than yours which is different than everyone else's.

It certainly is. 

[Mark G]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Sorry, mine got long, too...

Yeah, as a couple people already pointed out, I disagree with the stance that we're treated any different by sports franchises than our civic leaders (you really think they're telling the truth?), employers, the businesses we purchase from, or the places we bank. Civic leaders lie to us constantly. Campaigning is literally just them telling whatever segment of the population they want to vote for them what that segment wants to hear. They aren't transparent with a gosh darn thing. Unless you're running the company there's a who lot you aren't told about the behind the scenes of a company. Your employers don't tell you anything you don't need to know. Businesses we buy from? They literally have patents and copywrites so that we don't know what their "secret recipes" are. Corporate secrecy is the key to a whole bunch of the businesses we buy from. I work hand in hand with Amazon everyday and they won't tell me how they make decisions on anything. Banks give you the baseline of what you need to know about your account, but they're not giving us details about how the bank is run or their business strategies.

I think the difference between those things and sports is that some fans feel they're personally owed information about the athletes and teams because they build that emotional connection. Same reason some people are so enamored with the personal lives of celebrities. They build an imagined connection with them through their art (music, movies, whatever) and decide that means they're owed more information. People being irrational about "their teams" doesn't mean the organizations owe us information on what Byron Buxton is doing for rehab everyday. It doesn't mean we're privy to Correa's ankle imaging. We're kept in the dark about the main going ons of everything you've listed, but then you expect sports teams to be open because people grow overly attached to grown men playing a game. I don't buy it.

The information some fans are asking for is absolutely not known by the other teams. The other teams have general ideas about things, but they all have their own proprietary data and info. Giving out the medical information on a player just because fans want to know would give the other team an advantage. Rocco saying "Buxton is sitting on this day, this day, and this day, and Correa is sitting this day" allows the other manager to manage his pitching accordingly. Why would we want that? Telling the fans what their offseason strategy is would cost them a great deal of leverage in trade and contract negotiations. Why would we want that?

My argument would be that the internet, 24 hr "news cycle," and the constant leaking of information has lead fans to believe they're "owed" more and more. We're not. Byron Buxton doesn't owe me his treatment regiment. It's ridiculous to me to suggest that's information I deserve, or even need. The Twins don't owe me their offseason game plan. It's ridiculous to me to suggest that's information I deserve, or even need. What we're "owed" is the player and team's best efforts to provide an entertaining product on the field. That's what we pay them for. But my definition of entertaining is different than yours which is different than everyone else's. Just like Coke "owes" us a tasty beverage. That's what we pay them for. But my definition of tasty is different than yours which is different than everyone else's. We aren't owed the secret recipe, the business plan, or the health status of their employees.

 

Well, I guess it boils down to I expect any entity I give my money to should give me the information I need to feel comfortable with the information I have to feel comfortable with continuing that financial relationship........yeah, that didn't make sense to me either, but you get my drift. 😏

And you disagree.  Cool.  I guess I will always want more information before I hand over my money to this particular business, and you will be content with whatever they feel they "owe" you.  Again, cool.  Doesn't make me right and you wrong, or vice versa.  We just want different things from what I still call "our" team.  May we both be content with what we ultimately get.  😉

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

On the contrary, the Mets had no problem telling national reporters what their secondary offer to Correa was after the Mets rejected Correa's ankle scans. To translate this into Corporatespeak: "Dear Twins or other mystery team, here is our new offer to Correa: 6/157. Please beat it and release us from this negotiation." Transparent as a sunny day.

The Twins not only beat that offer (for a player no other team really wanted that much), they beat it by 25%. 

 

It certainly is. 

The quote about not being transparent was about civic leaders. But the Twins were also "transparent" about their offers to Correa. Certain fans want even more than that, though. That's what this current discussion is about. They want "the plan." The information "we" get will never be enough for some people. And that just is what it is. This "debate/conversation" will never end. Because there's no end to the amount of information certain fans think they're entitled to. Even if that information being made public would hinder their team's ability to be competitive they still want it released. They feel they deserve to know about all the behind the scenes stuff. So they'll continually ask for more and more. I just find that ridiculous.

[chpettit19]

14 minutes ago, Mark G said:

 

Well, I guess it boils down to I expect any entity I give my money to should give me the information I need to feel comfortable with the information I have to feel comfortable with continuing that financial relationship........yeah, that didn't make sense to me either, but you get my drift. 😏

And you disagree.  Cool.  I guess I will always want more information before I hand over my money to this particular business, and you will be content with whatever they feel they "owe" you.  Again, cool.  Doesn't make me right and you wrong, or vice versa.  We just want different things from what I still call "our" team.  May we both be content with what we ultimately get.  😉

I follow that flawless explanation crystal clear! 😄 I do understand where you're coming from, and agree that I want information before I hand my money over for anything.

Where we disagree is on what information is needed from a sports team before we feel like we have enough information. And that's completely ok. I don't need to know their plan for making the team better, or getting their players healthy. I just need to know what the roster is (I'm smart enough to know if the roster is good or bad), and that the players are healthy enough to play. Them telling me Buxton spent 3 hours with the trainer doing treatment I know nothing about that day doesn't change anything for my investment in their product that day, but knowing he's playing, and where, does. Them telling me the offseason plan is to sign players X, Y, and Z for certain salaries while trading player A for player B doesn't change anything for my investment in their product the upcoming season, but them actually acquiring players X, Y, and Z and trading player A for player B (and me feeling players X, Y, Z, and B are good) does.

You, and clearly others as well, want to know more. And that's fine. There's probably a line somewhere between us that the team should be focused on to bring in as many fans as possible while not sharing more info than they have to. That's the great balancing act of every business with their consumers.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 2/6/2023 at 8:21 AM, Whitey333 said:

What a terrible article this was.  How dare any fans criticize the great results of this twins team.  They've been spinning their wheels basically for the past 20 years.  Yet fans who disagree with the FO etc. are blasted in articles like this because we don't understand.  What??  What kind of crap is this.  It also is frustrating when articles like this keep telling us fans that we don't know what we are talking about or are stupid.  Don't talk down to the fans.  The FO should be a little more open.  This team plays boring, uninspired, and undisciplined baseball overseen by a manage that has the same qualities.  Just because we don't always agree we with their philosophy doesn't mean we should be denigrated or talked down to.  

Respect is always a must, and rule number 1 here at TD. I agree with you wholeheartedly on that.

I didn’t read the article as anything less than respectful. The author shared their experience and used some approachable concepts that I remember from college, but couldn’t apply on my own.

agreed, the team plays boring and undisciplined baseball (hard to tell on inspiration) but the modern game is boring with the dominant 3 true outcomes and it takes more than a couple offseasons to change decades of little league, highschool, college minor league coaching based on the the home run prone Selig Ball and transition to the home run oppressed Manfred Ball.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

8 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

On the contrary, the Mets had no problem telling national reporters what their secondary offer to Correa was after the Mets rejected Correa's ankle scans. To translate this into Corporatespeak: "Dear Twins or other mystery team, here is our new offer to Correa: 6/157. Please beat it and release us from this negotiation." Transparent as a sunny day.

The Twins not only beat that offer (for a player no other team really wanted that much), they beat it by 25%. 

 

It certainly is. 

They beat the guaranteed by 25% they offered a lower overall by 15% if Correa plays the whole contract.

[LastOnePicked]

23 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

While I agree that results are all that matter I find it pretty hard to blame them for Kirilloff's wrist, Lewis' knee, or Canterino's arm.

I think you're arguing incidents, while I'm suggesting patterns, In isolation, all of these seem like "acts of fate," sure, but even as you mentioned, word was out about Rice's pitchers before Canterino was drafted. Asking a career SS rehabbing an ACL in his first MLB year to patrol CF was unwise. Last year, Kirilloff had been hinting since Spring Training that his wrist wasn't well. Believe it or not, some issues are preventable or avoidable. Not all, but some.

Add these back into the context of trades for Dyson, Paddack and Mahle that immediately turned into season-ending injuries, and you have a pattern of lack of awareness about injury and conditioning. 

Let me put it this way, when misfortune seems to be striking just one team continuously, it's probably not just fate at that point.

But all of this is separate from the main point of my reaction to this article and to other articles that suggest that fan morale or fan perception is out of whack for this club. No, the Twins are lucky to have fans at this point. Fans are allowed to have any kind of reasonable or unreasonable take about this club at this point. It is solely, squarely, 100% on the Minnesota Twins to reset the narrative for this organization. Not the fans. Not the baseball gods. The Twins. Period.