Trading Gio Was A Mistake

[BuxtonBonanza]

If the Twins think Lewis can be back this season, they are probably willing to roll the dice and wait for him to get 100% and not have Urshela as a backup to Miradana or Polanco. Once Lewis is up, I suspect he will take over Polanco's spot which would also lessen the possibility of his 500 AB option vesting. With Lee on the way and SS on lockdown for 6 years, the Twins need to see what they have with Miranda (signed until 2026) and Ushela taking away ABs and innings in the field don't help with that assessment. While it would be great to have Urshela as a backup, having him play doesn't serve the medium to longterm future of the Twins and if the FO could get a prospect for him, I can see why they did it and don't have an issue with the team depth in 2023 or beyond. 

 

[Cody Pirkl]

27 minutes ago, FlyingFinn said:

I've heard about the swings but not the soreness. What report did I miss, what's the source?

Dan Hayes had an article on the Athletic I believe 5 days ago that said the soreness hasn't gone away.

[stringer bell]

I'm still questioning the Gallo signing, but I don't think it's just comparing Gallo to Urshela. Gio had a nice year last year, but he remains a slow right handed hitter with marginal power, who was going to get (I'll call it) star (not superstar) money. The moves the Twins have made and not made indicate confidence in Alex Kirilloff, perhaps indirectly related to retaining Gio. I think the left side of the infield had a lot more to do with cashiering Urshlela, with the uncertainty to start 2023 at shortstop and right handed hitting Royce Lewis and switch hitter Brooks Lee on the horizon. 

[William K Johnson]

Thought it was a mistake then, think it still a mistake now.    Miranda cannot play third base but at least we have Farmer to hold the spot until Lewis is ready.

[Cody Pirkl]

4 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

No.  I don't agree.

Why is that exactly? I'm just curious why people don't think that they'd have a better team with Gio instead of Gallo or Kepler. Another RH hitter would help and Gio is a better bet to contribute offensively imo.

[h2oface]

4 hours ago, ashbury said:

Maybe I didn't read the article carefully enough, but given the current roster and that we're apparently not trading Kepler for prospects, who would you remove from the 40-man to make room to have kept Gio?

Pagan!!!!

[Fire Dan Gladden]

How can anybody say this was a mistake?  We haven't even had a single day of preseason.  This discussion can only truly be had in retrospect.  Anything else is premature.  

I didn't like the move at the time, but I understood why the Twins made it.  The Miranda risk has been mitigated by Correa coming back and making Farmer a utility player.
 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

3 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I like Urshela, he's a good 3B, I don't care what the #s say.

 

This post makes the most sense to me about this issue. What most of the posters and the article are leaving out is that the Twins did not have a SS, therefore got Farmer the same day they traded Urshela. The Twins basically were getting Farmer to play SS if Correa was not signed or were going to use Farmer at utility infield if Correa was signed.  Farmer had more flexibility than Urshela and could play SS and Urshela could not play SS.  It would not make sense to keep Urshela under the circumstances that existed then, or now. Urshela was in his last year of arbitration eligibility and would not be with the Twins in 2024 in all probability anyway. Could the Twins have gotten more for 1 year of an arbitration eligible Urshela?...Apparently not. Remember the Angels got him to be a back up for an injury-prone Rendon at 3B.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Gio became expendable when the Twins signed Farmer. Which was a month or two before the Twins signed Gallo. Gallo vs. keeping Gio is really comparing apples to oranges. The Twins have much more promising prospect depth at SS, 3B and 2B, than they have at OF. Getting rid of Gio has no relation to signing Gallo. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

44 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

How can anybody say this was a mistake?  We haven't even had a single day of preseason.  This discussion can only truly be had in retrospect.  Anything else is premature.  

I didn't like the move at the time, but I understood why the Twins made it.  The Miranda risk has been mitigated by Correa coming back and making Farmer a utility player.
 

Good reasoning Fire Dan. I agree. 

[LewFordLives]

I was mad about the Urshela trade at the time because I assumed Correa was gone and there was going to be too many questions on the left side of the infield. But with Correa back, it frees up Farmer to play 3B if Miranda falters. And Lewis or Lee might be ready later in the year. 

I don't see the Gallo signing as making sense in any scenario. I just don't know what the front office was thinking with that one. 

[gman]

Keeping Kepler is taking at bats away from what would likely be a more productive hitter. We wouldn't be trading Kepler for peanuts. We would be trading him for peanuts plus another bat currently on the team getting more playing time.

[Cody Pirkl]

1 hour ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

How can anybody say this was a mistake?  We haven't even had a single day of preseason.  This discussion can only truly be had in retrospect.  Anything else is premature.  

I didn't like the move at the time, but I understood why the Twins made it.  The Miranda risk has been mitigated by Correa coming back and making Farmer a utility player.
 

The roster construction is the basis of calling it a mistake. They have so many left handed corner outfielders that one of them who's won gold gloves at their position is going to have to play 1B for playing time. Gio is a much better fit for how this roster wound up than Kepler or Gallo on the basis of him being right handed and performing better than both combined last season. 

I also don't believe in the "the season hasn't started yet so we can't judge" idea. You can tell by looking at the roster right now that they have too many left handed hitters and that guys are going to be playing out of position. That's not a sign of good process by the FO.

[chpettit19]

Why are we comparing Gio to Gallo? Wasn't the swap really Gio for Farmer?

[Riverbrian]

I've always assumed that Gio was basically traded for Farmer. They were traded bang bang so it makes sense.

Farmer was necessary if we didn't land a SS and Farmer could do what Gio did if we landed a SS so it was a better fit. 

I don't see any connection to Kepler, Gallo or Kirilloff at all. 

If I were to continue my assumptions. I assume Gallo was signed primarily because we had some money to spend after we didn't get Correa. It wasn't long after Correa agreed with the Giants that Vazquez and Gallo were announced. 

I also assume that if Correa would have signed with the Twins right away and not flirted with the Giants and Mets... Gallo and possibly Vazquez as well would probably not be Twins right now. I assume that 11M would have been too much and they might have went with a cheaper catcher instead. 

If I were to continue my assumptions. When Correa became an option again and the Twins got the deal done... it created a new unplanned thing called Correa plus Gallo and Vazquez. 

Kepler? No idea. I assume that the right deal would have pried him loose from the very beginning... even before Gio/Farmer. I just don't think the market was ever going to pay the right deal and I think the front office has moved on and have included Kepler, into a new Correa, Gallo, Kepler, Vazquez paradigm.

I think all front offices start the off-season with a plan but end up with adjustments to that plan based on opportunity or lack of.  

 

[Riverbrian]

12 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

The roster construction is the basis of calling it a mistake. They have so many left handed corner outfielders that one of them who's won gold gloves at their position is going to have to play 1B for playing time. Gio is a much better fit for how this roster wound up than Kepler or Gallo on the basis of him being right handed and performing better than both combined last season. 

I also don't believe in the "the season hasn't started yet so we can't judge" idea. You can tell by looking at the roster right now that they have too many left handed hitters and that guys are going to be playing out of position. That's not a sign of good process by the FO.

And the Yankees and Blue Jays are all right handed. 

Turns out we have a bunch of left handed hitters. 

Clearly survivable. 

Let's see if they can hit. 

[chpettit19]

34 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

The roster construction is the basis of calling it a mistake. They have so many left handed corner outfielders that one of them who's won gold gloves at their position is going to have to play 1B for playing time. Gio is a much better fit for how this roster wound up than Kepler or Gallo on the basis of him being right handed and performing better than both combined last season. 

I also don't believe in the "the season hasn't started yet so we can't judge" idea. You can tell by looking at the roster right now that they have too many left handed hitters and that guys are going to be playing out of position. That's not a sign of good process by the FO.

Why do you think Gallo is going to have to play 1B for playing time? Who's going to be playing out of position?

Vs Righties:
C- Vazquez
1B- Kirilloff (he's the last option in the cOF now)
2B- Polanco
3B- Miranda
SS- Correa
LF- Gallo
CF- Buxton
RF- Kepler
DH- Larnach
Bench- Gordon, Farmer, Jeffers, Taylor

Vs Lefties
C- Jeffers
1B- Farmer
2B- Polanco
3B- Miranda
SS- Correa
LF- Gallo
CF- Buxton
RF- Taylor
DH- Larnach
Bench- Gordon, Kepler, Vazquez, Kirilloff

If Gallo is bad Gordon takes LF. Maybe they actually DH Jeffers or Vazquez against lefties since Farmer can hop behind the plate if needed. Or Buxton probably gets a lot of DH days against lefties with Taylor in CF.

I don't see the connection between Gio and Gallo. I get the argument that they're too left handed in the corner outfield, but Gallo isn't the platoon with Kirilloff, Farmer is. Gio on this team instead of Gallo doesn't fix anything since they play different positions. Really it's more Gallo over Garlick since Garlick is the guy he actually replaced as a cOFer. But Gallo's ability to step into 1B if Kirilloff can't go actually makes a ton of sense. Otherwise you were looking at Kepler moving there probably. The Arraez trade and the Farmer trade have way, way, way more connection to the Gio trade than the Gallo signing.

[Cody Pirkl]

24 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

And the Yankees and Blue Jays are all right handed. 

Turns out we have a bunch of left handed hitters. 

Clearly survivable. 

Let's see if they can hit. 

Gio was far better than Kepler and Gallo against both righ and left handed pitching as well. I get that anything can happen in baseball, but in my opinion which I've based on the statistics and roster fit of all players involved, the Twins dumped the wrong player.

[Cody Pirkl]

7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Why do you think Gallo is going to have to play 1B for playing time? Who's going to be playing out of position?

Vs Righties:
C- Vazquez
1B- Kirilloff (he's the last option in the cOF now)
2B- Polanco
3B- Miranda
SS- Correa
LF- Gallo
CF- Buxton
RF- Kepler
DH- Larnach
Bench- Gordon, Farmer, Jeffers, Taylor

Vs Lefties
C- Jeffers
1B- Farmer
2B- Polanco
3B- Miranda
SS- Correa
LF- Gallo
CF- Buxton
RF- Taylor
DH- Larnach
Bench- Gordon, Kepler, Vazquez, Kirilloff

If Gallo is bad Gordon takes LF. Maybe they actually DH Jeffers or Vazquez against lefties since Farmer can hop behind the plate if needed. Or Buxton probably gets a lot of DH days against lefties with Taylor in CF.

I don't see the connection between Gio and Gallo. I get the argument that they're too left handed in the corner outfield, but Gallo isn't the platoon with Kirilloff, Farmer is. Gio on this team instead of Gallo doesn't fix anything since they play different positions. Really it's more Gallo over Garlick since Garlick is the guy he actually replaced as a cOFer. But Gallo's ability to step into 1B if Kirilloff can't go actually makes a ton of sense. Otherwise you were looking at Kepler moving there probably. The Arraez trade and the Farmer trade have way, way, way more connection to the Gio trade than the Gallo signing.

It's been pretty widely reported that Gallo is going to be the player to spell Kirilloff at 1B early in the season if Kirilloff is going to be ready to play at all by Opening Day. Gallo has played there but why not keep Gio Urshela who isn't a gold glove winning defender at another position to play a more logical platoon role? All of the lefties also pushes down players like Larnach to a point where they're not even insurance, they're just plain buried. 

I'm not trying to make this Gio vs Gallo, I'd actually prefer they had gotten rid of Kepler. I just don't think they sign Gallo unless their plan at some point wasn't to trade Kepler away, but it seems they somehow misjudged the trade market for a below average hitter at a premium offensive position.

They could have put this roster together a whole lot better, but in my eyes they continue to overvalue Max Kepler to the point where they're costing themselves. Gio is a better player by just about any measure, but he was dumped for whatever they could get. Don't really understand it.

[stringer bell]

16 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Why do you think Gallo is going to have to play 1B for playing time? Who's going to be playing out of position?

Vs Righties:
C- Vazquez
1B- Kirilloff (he's the last option in the cOF now)
2B- Polanco
3B- Miranda
SS- Correa
LF- Gallo
CF- Buxton
RF- Kepler
DH- Larnach
Bench- Gordon, Farmer, Jeffers, Taylor

Vs Lefties
C- Jeffers
1B- Farmer
2B- Polanco
3B- Miranda
SS- Correa
LF- Gallo
CF- Buxton
RF- Taylor
DH- Larnach
Bench- Gordon, Kepler, Vazquez, Kirilloff

If Gallo is bad Gordon takes LF. Maybe they actually DH Jeffers or Vazquez against lefties since Farmer can hop behind the plate if needed. Or Buxton probably gets a lot of DH days against lefties with Taylor in CF.

I don't see the connection between Gio and Gallo. I get the argument that they're too left handed in the corner outfield, but Gallo isn't the platoon with Kirilloff, Farmer is. Gio on this team instead of Gallo doesn't fix anything since they play different positions. Really it's more Gallo over Garlick since Garlick is the guy he actually replaced as a cOFer. But Gallo's ability to step into 1B if Kirilloff can't go actually makes a ton of sense. Otherwise you were looking at Kepler moving there probably. The Arraez trade and the Farmer trade have way, way, way more connection to the Gio trade than the Gallo signing.

I think you have the lineup versus right handed pitching pretty close to right. Versus lefties, the I think first of all Farmer and Miranda would be flip-flopped. Secondly, the primary DH most likely would be Buxton, with Taylor in center. Two of Kirilloff, Larnach, Gordon, Gallo and Kepler would be in the starting lineup unless Buxton is in center, Taylor in left and a catcher is the DH. 

[chpettit19]

9 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

It's been pretty widely reported that Gallo is going to be the player to spell Kirilloff at 1B early in the season if Kirilloff is going to be ready to play at all by Opening Day. Gallo has played there but why not keep Gio Urshela who isn't a gold glove winning defender at another position to play a more logical platoon role? All of the lefties also pushes down players like Larnach to a point where they're not even insurance, they're just plain buried. 

I'm not trying to make this Gio vs Gallo, I'd actually prefer they had gotten rid of Kepler. I just don't think they sign Gallo unless their plan at some point wasn't to trade Kepler away, but it seems they somehow misjudged the trade market for a below average hitter at a premium offensive position.

They could have put this roster together a whole lot better, but in my eyes they continue to overvalue Max Kepler to the point where they're costing themselves. Gio is a better player by just about any measure, but he was dumped for whatever they could get. Don't really understand it.

Gallo will spell Kirilloff, or replace him, against righties, not lefties. Kyle Farmer is the logical platoon role (or Miranda slides over and Farmer mans 3B). I'm really confused by your stance that Gallo is going to platoon with Kirilloff. Larnach, as of today, is the opening day DH. Like you seem to just be making up scenarios to fit your narrative. The argument you could try to make is that Gio would make it so Miranda could DH against lefties. But that's not what you're saying. Gallo is Kirilloff's backup plan, not platoon.

I mean your article is literally Gio vs Gallo. "Why sign Joey Gallo at all as opposed to keeping Gio Urshela" is a direct quote from you. That's not making this Gio vs Gallo? You took the Gio trade and Gallo signing and built an article around it. 

Gallo vs Kepler I get. I think we all expected Kepler to be gone by now. But Gio doesn't play corner OF and Gallo and Kepler don't play 3B. So I don't get why you're pulling him into this. Why not just write that Gallo and Kepler are redundant and stick with that comparison? Why bring in a guy who doesn't play the same position?

[stringer bell]

5 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

It's been pretty widely reported that Gallo is going to be the player to spell Kirilloff at 1B early in the season if Kirilloff is going to be ready to play at all by Opening Day. Gallo has played there but why not keep Gio Urshela who isn't a gold glove winning defender at another position to play a more logical platoon role? All of the lefties also pushes down players like Larnach to a point where they're not even insurance, they're just plain buried. 

I'm not trying to make this Gio vs Gallo, I'd actually prefer they had gotten rid of Kepler. I just don't think they sign Gallo unless their plan at some point wasn't to trade Kepler away, but it seems they somehow misjudged the trade market for a below average hitter at a premium offensive position.

They could have put this roster together a whole lot better, but in my eyes they continue to overvalue Max Kepler to the point where they're costing themselves. Gio is a better player by just about any measure, but he was dumped for whatever they could get. Don't really understand it.

I agree and adding a left handed corner outfielder like Gallo is questionable at best. I just don't think they considered making Gio a platoon first baseman. Making Miranda the primary third baseman seems to always have been their plan and he certainly could hit enough to make us forget Gio in that role. I've said in other threads that I view Kirilloff's as probably the most significant recovery from injury. The club's actions really seem to underscore their belief in his recovery and eventual positive contribution.

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

I think you have the lineup versus right handed pitching pretty close to right. Versus lefties, the I think first of all Farmer and Miranda would be flip-flopped. Secondly, the primary DH most likely would be Buxton, with Taylor in center. Two of Kirilloff, Larnach, Gordon, Gallo and Kepler would be in the starting lineup unless Buxton is in center, Taylor in left and a catcher is the DH. 

Yeah, I don't know if they prefer to keep Miranda at 3B as much as possible or if they'll bounce him back and forth some. I wouldn't be surprised either way. I mentioned Buxton getting a lot of DH days against lefties. I'd guess that's probably the plan now. I won't be surprised at all if they do have some games with Buxton in CF, Taylor in LF, and a catcher at DH, though. Farmer having literally caught games in the majors is a really nice #3 catcher situation to have. They're definitely lefty heavy right now, but I don't think it's outrageous. 2 lefties in a lineup against lefty starters isn't earth shattering stuff.

[stringer bell]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

They're definitely lefty heavy right now, but I don't think it's outrageous. 2 lefties in a lineup against lefty starters isn't earth shattering stuff.

If they can hit! Both Kepler and Gallo have had seasons in the past where they should be in the lineup almost every day, even against lefties. Still, they are overloaded with Gordon, Larnach, Kepler and Gallo all corner OF and DH candidates or adding Kirilloff, six guys for four spots in the order. 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, stringer bell said:

If they can hit! Both Kepler and Gallo have had seasons in the past where they should be in the lineup almost every day, even against lefties. Still, they are overloaded with Gordon, Larnach, Kepler and Gallo all corner OF and DH candidates or adding Kirilloff, six guys for four spots in the order. 

Yeah, I don't think it's as big of a concern as others do, but I get the cOF/1B/DH complaint. I just don't get why a 3B is being brought into this. I mean Kyle Garlick fits better into this argument. He's the righty bat who plays cOF/DH and is a pure platoon bat against lefties. He's a better fit on this roster than Gio is. I'm not really even pushing back on the "too many LH cOF" argument. I'm just pushing back on Gio being the comp when he doesn't play that position, and I don't want him as my DH.

[Cody Pirkl]

24 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Gallo will spell Kirilloff, or replace him, against righties, not lefties. Kyle Farmer is the logical platoon role (or Miranda slides over and Farmer mans 3B). I'm really confused by your stance that Gallo is going to platoon with Kirilloff. Larnach, as of today, is the opening day DH. Like you seem to just be making up scenarios to fit your narrative. The argument you could try to make is that Gio would make it so Miranda could DH against lefties. But that's not what you're saying. Gallo is Kirilloff's backup plan, not platoon.

I mean your article is literally Gio vs Gallo. "Why sign Joey Gallo at all as opposed to keeping Gio Urshela" is a direct quote from you. That's not making this Gio vs Gallo? You took the Gio trade and Gallo signing and built an article around it. 

Gallo vs Kepler I get. I think we all expected Kepler to be gone by now. But Gio doesn't play corner OF and Gallo and Kepler don't play 3B. So I don't get why you're pulling him into this. Why not just write that Gallo and Kepler are redundant and stick with that comparison? Why bring in a guy who doesn't play the same position?

Haven't seen a single report that Farmer might play 1B. If you want to make an argument along those lines, Miranda would probably move over to 1B if its a straight platoon scenario with Kirilloff and Farmer would take over 3B. Again that would raise the question as to why Urshela was basically given away. I'm not sure how it could be argued that this roster needed another left handed corner OF more than a right handed IF, especially when two of the OFs would be disasters if they repeat their 2022 performances.

In regards to "why sign Gallo at all instead of keep Urshela", that's a fair question to ask. They already had a plus defending corner OF coming off a terrible offensive season, and they kept both of those players over Miranda who was the more valuable player than either.

Gallo is going to play a good amount of 1B which is where I think we disagree. It's either that or Larnach, Gordon etc. aren't playing much at all.

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, William K Johnson said:

Thought it was a mistake then, think it still a mistake now.    Miranda cannot play third base but at least we have Farmer to hold the spot until Lewis is ready.

Good thing you weren't the GM when Hunter struggled. Miranda was a rookie. He might not be great at third, but to write him off after one year is amazingly impatient. 

[Mike Sixel]

11 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

Haven't seen a single report that Farmer might play 1B. If you want to make an argument along those lines, Miranda would probably move over to 1B if its a straight platoon scenario with Kirilloff and Farmer would take over 3B. Again that would raise the question as to why Urshela was basically given away. I'm not sure how it could be argued that this roster needed another left handed corner OF more than a right handed IF, especially when two of the OFs would be disasters if they repeat their 2022 performances.

In regards to "why sign Gallo at all instead of keep Urshela", that's a fair question to ask. They already had a plus defending corner OF coming off a terrible offensive season, and they kept both of those players over Miranda who was the more valuable player than either.

Gallo is going to play a good amount of 1B which is where I think we disagree. It's either that or Larnach, Gordon etc. aren't playing much at all.

Why are we assuming Gallo plays first, and not larnach, if AK is hurt? Why are we assuming larnach isn't the DH many games? 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

Haven't seen a single report that Farmer might play 1B. If you want to make an argument along those lines, Miranda would probably move over to 1B if its a straight platoon scenario with Kirilloff and Farmer would take over 3B. Again that would raise the question as to why Urshela was basically given away. I'm not sure how it could be argued that this roster needed another left handed corner OF more than a right handed IF, especially when two of the OFs would be disasters if they repeat their 2022 performances.

In regards to "why sign Gallo at all instead of keep Urshela", that's a fair question to ask. They already had a plus defending corner OF coming off a terrible offensive season, and they kept both of those players over Miranda who was the more valuable player than either.

Gallo is going to play a good amount of 1B which is where I think we disagree. It's either that or Larnach, Gordon etc. aren't playing much at all.

Yeah, I literally said "or Miranda slides over." I haven't seen a single report that Gallo might platoon with Kirilloff, but you're running with that. I've seen them mention that Gallo can, and has, play(ed) 1B, but nothing that they're planning a platoon. Why would Farmer being the platoon raise the question of Urshela being moved? Farmer can play SS, Urshela can't. Farmer can catch, Urshela can't. Farmer played 1B as recently as last year. He played 2B in 2021. He even played LF in 2021. Urshela isn't doing any of that. Farmer replaced Gio, Gallo didn't. Gallo replaced Garlick.

They have a bunch of LH cOF who can't stay healthy, and/or haven't proven themselves. Could they replace 1 of them with a righty? Sure. But you've said "they could have put this roster together a whole lot better" like switching out 1 lefty for 1 righty is some gigantic thing. It's 1 roster spot. Let's keep some perspective here.

Gallo might, but that'll be against righties in place of Kirilloff. What do you think Farmer's role is on this team? Bench guy who only sees the field when someone is hurt? They have 4 righty IFers and a switch hitter. Farmer and Miranda are the 1B platoon. Larnach is the opening day DH. That's a position you seem to be ignoring. Gordon is their super utility guy. Is Rocco suddenly going to try to get 160 starts out of 9 guys, or is he still the guy who will give planned rest days to 100% of the players on the roster and make sure he plays everyone a bunch? Why are people concerned about playing time? The most obvious thing the Twins do is rotate players constantly.

[Cody Pirkl]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why are we assuming Gallo plays first, and not larnach, if AK is hurt? Why are we assuming larnach isn't the DH many games? 

It's already been reported that Gallo will be playing 1B, especially early in the year to spell Kirilloff.