Why don't more people hate the Rays?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Every time we remember to pay attention, they're just doing something kinda crappy to their players.

 I have come to dislike that franchise immensely.

[tony&rodney]

The people in the Tampa Bay area are pretty apathetic towards the Rays. High school baseball games will actually bring in several hundred  fans and there is interest in baseball but the Rays have a long history of sifting through players. The Rays have not had fans identify a player with a number for example. While they have won in recent years, the stability of the franchise is poor and the location of their stadium less than optimum. 

[ashbury]

My youngest son was an early-adopter, so to speak, of the Rays as "his" team (well, second to the Twins) 15 or so years ago. He surprised me recently by saying that he's dropped that allegiance, for about the reasons you alluded to. Which is funny, because he received his MBA less than a year ago, but he basically sides with Labor moreso than Management in most things and the Rays finally became too much cognitive dissonance for him. The more teams that adopt the Rays' payroll practices, the less competition there is for high-end talent, and that bugs him.

There are several teams besides the A's that the book Moneyball could have been written about, and each has its own particular spin on how to do it, but overall my belief is that Moneyball is as much a cause of low revenue as it is a symptom. At best, it's a holding pattern in a lose-lose scenario, much as a military leader may win particular battles but lose the war or a surgeon may have a successful operation but lose the patient. Looking only at the standings is short sighted.

[Mike Sixel]

Apathy, I'd guess. Also, for some reason people are ok with billionaires keeping revenue instead of paying "greedy" players. Fans are weird.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Millionaires vs Billionaires is a difficult narrative to follow when one of them might take away your favorite uniform.

[Brandon]

I think the Tays tried signing players from Tampa (Boggs was one). They tried signing expensive free agents in 90s,  and they found winning to be their best draw.  They did sign Longoria, their SS Wander Franco, and Kevin Kiermaier to long term deals. I don’t know their financials so I don’t know if they could add another 50 million to payroll.  I imagine their ops department cost more than other teams to find the talent and figure out how to maximize it.  So I don’t blame them for what they do.  The question is if they get their new stadium or get another revenue stream how will they handle that or will they relocate to Nashville?

[Vanimal46]

Their method of player identification in acquisitions and player development is enviable. The rest of their operation is a bad look for a growing league. 

I don’t know why Manfred has not been more assertive towards the Rays and A’s to get a new stadium under construction. Oakland’s stadium has been a dump for 30 years. Tampa’s situation isn’t any better. 

[2wins87]

I tend to agree.

I think people like an underdog, so they played on that reputation for a while.

They certainly have more spending constraints than other teams, so they are going to have to have a different strategy for successful team building. Still, I don't think their strategy makes them a likeable team.

Even if you don't view it as a labor vs capital thing, most of their best (and often most likeable) players only last on the team for a few years. This probably doesn't help with maintaining a fan base. And of course a multi-billion dollar entity acting cheap tends to be pretty unlikeable as well.

I will admit that part of my dislike is probably a bit of jealousy on my part for how successful they've been recently despite their limited resources. At the same time, I'm a little over their whole underdog schtick, and I don't really think they are a particularly likeable organization in other ways.

 

 

[Wyotwinsfan]

I think it’s helps that they play in the AL East. Not much hate left after the Yankees and Red Sox take their share.  They used to be the underdogs who often beat up on the Yankees. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

6 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Apathy, I'd guess. Also, for some reason people are ok with billionaires keeping revenue instead of paying "greedy" players. Fans are weird.

Billionaires own the Rays?

[ashbury]

2 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Billionaires own the Rays?

Maybe they started out that way.

[BSLinPA]

9 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Every time we remember to pay attention, they're just doing something kinda crappy to their players.

 I have come to dislike that franchise immensely.

Wow.....a TD Admin's article featuring a headline of hatred.....what happened to Minnesota Nice????  Well, must conceed BB posted as "dislike that franchise immensely".....his italics.......lol.

Truth be told, Rays lead baseball with 14 players eligible for arb, a direction correlation to the number of young guys who have been provided a MLB oppportunity in Tampa. Seven of those players have not yet come to an agreement with their team.  Those "despicable" Mariners have failed to reach agreement with half of their arb eligible players.....should we dispise them, too??

Rays payroll for 2022 was just under $100 million, or #23 out of 30 teams.  Do we dispise the Orioles, Pirates, Athletics, Guardians, Marlins, Diamondbacks and Royals??

Or is the Rays' success without overpaying what bothers you?? I think this chart speaks well of their recent level of success.  All of this in the American League's toughest division (by far)!

MLB season	Team season	League[43]	Division[43]	Regular season					Post-season	Awards
				Finish[a]	Wins[b]	Losses	Win%	GB[c]
2018	2018	AL	East	3rd	90	72	.555	18		Blake Snell (CYA)[44]
2019	2019	AL	East	2nd ¤	96	66	.593	7	Won ALWC (Athletics) Lost ALDS (Astros) 3–2
2020	2020	AL *	East ^	1st	40	20	.667	—	Won ALWC (Blue Jays) 2–0 Won ALDS (Yankees) 3–2 Won ALCS (Astros) 4–3 Lost World Series (Dodgers) 4–2	Kevin Cash (MOY)[45]
2021	2021	AL	East ^	1st	100	62	.617	—	Lost ALDS (Red Sox) 3–1	Randy Arozarena (ROY)[46] Kevin Cash (MOY)[45]
2022	2022	AL	East	3rd ¤	86	76	.531	13	Lost ALWC (Guardians)

Since 2008 they've been to the post season eight times, including AL Champs in 2008 and 2020.

Not too shabby, huh???  I'd (We'd??) be much happier with our Twins had they demonstrated this level of success in the past five years......no???

And while this might be a broad brush, they seem to get the very best out of their pitchers.  Their team ERA and WHIP were 4th best to Dodger$, A$tro$ and Yankee$.  From a distance, it looks like those who move on to other teams leave their best success behind in Tampa.

And they have shown a willingness to spend when prudent.  The team BB dislikes immensely just signed a 29 year old starting pitcher with 20 career wins to a $30.3M two-year contract.  How terrible!!??

BB.....if the headline was click bait, ya got me.....lol.  If not, i think you've help me identify my second favorite MLB team.  :-)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

4 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Maybe they started out that way.

How to make a small fortune being a Major League Baseball owner.

(hint: start with a large fortune…)

I have no problem with the ‘Rays way’ and was just typing a longer post about it. I don’t remember the story perfectly but basically the Rays were the brain child of one individual (might have been a billionaire?) who built a stadium to court an expansion franchise. There was no fan base clamoring for an MLB franchise. The Trop, the stadium they play in, is older than the Rays franchise itself. They were cursed from the start, and stuck in the division with the Yankees and Red Sox. They never had a chance. Then one year, Andrew Friedman showed up…

Within the context of my baseball fandom, I admire what the Rays have done, and I love it when they beat the big teams. There must be bigger sins than taking young players to arbitration, but I haven’t been shown evidence that the Rays are a franchise powerful enough to commit those sins. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

42 minutes ago, BSLinPA said:

Wow.....a TD Admin's article featuring a headline of hatred.....what happened to Minnesota Nice????  Well, must conceed BB posted as "dislike that franchise immensely".....his italics.......lol.

I didn't feature this topic, I simply created it in the Other Baseball forum. It's my opinion, feel free to agree or disagree.

But if a team consistently rolls out a payroll roughly equivalent to what they receive in national television money, I don't really care if they win or not, they're doing a disservice to the sport.

But if we want to get down and dirty about it, the Rays will receive about $100m this season for national TV revenue and the MLBAM sale. That doesn't include their revenue sharing cut, their local TV deal (which is slightly better than the Twins, mind you), and their ticket sales (playing in the AL East, it's nothing to scoff at even though their home attendance is poor).

Their 2022 payroll was $98m.

[wsnydes]

It's hard to argue with their W/L success, but it's equally as hard to argue that they aren't a drag on the overall health of the game.  They have lots of factors working against them like ballpark quality and location, local apathy, and a fan base that largely isn't from Tampa and has their hometown allegiance, among several others, but it's not like they contribute much to the league with their low payrolls and refusal to spend much, if anything, out of their own pocket.  That's not healthy for the game or the league.

I envy the way they identify players and develop them, but that's about it.

[bap3141]

15 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Every time we remember to pay attention, they're just doing something kinda crappy to their players.

 I have come to dislike that franchise immensely.

The Rays get a free pass because they compete in a division of big spenders.  Consequently, players remember things like this.  How much will it affect their ability to re-sign them? Who knows.  The Twins did this to Berrios and the next season all we heard about was how Berrios wanted to test free agency in the off-season.  Then he's traded to Toronto and signs an extension.

Point is - letting a panel of arbiters decide the difference of a few hundred thousand isn't really a big deal, so why not just get it done without dragging the player through arbitration? It's never a positive way to build a business relationship with your players.    

[Doctor Gast]

13 hours ago, BSLinPA said:

Wow.....a TD Admin's article featuring a headline of hatred.....what happened to Minnesota Nice????  Well, must conceed BB posted as "dislike that franchise immensely".....his italics.......lol.

Truth be told, Rays lead baseball with 14 players eligible for arb, a direction correlation to the number of young guys who have been provided a MLB oppportunity in Tampa. Seven of those players have not yet come to an agreement with their team.  Those "despicable" Mariners have failed to reach agreement with half of their arb eligible players.....should we dispise them, too??

Rays payroll for 2022 was just under $100 million, or #23 out of 30 teams.  Do we dispise the Orioles, Pirates, Athletics, Guardians, Marlins, Diamondbacks and Royals??

Or is the Rays' success without overpaying what bothers you?? I think this chart speaks well of their recent level of success.  All of this in the American League's toughest division (by far)!

MLB season	Team season	League[43]	Division[43]	Regular season					Post-season	Awards
				Finish[a]	Wins[b]	Losses	Win%	GB[c]
2018	2018	AL	East	3rd	90	72	.555	18		Blake Snell (CYA)[44]
2019	2019	AL	East	2nd ¤	96	66	.593	7	Won ALWC (Athletics) Lost ALDS (Astros) 3–2
2020	2020	AL *	East ^	1st	40	20	.667	—	Won ALWC (Blue Jays) 2–0 Won ALDS (Yankees) 3–2 Won ALCS (Astros) 4–3 Lost World Series (Dodgers) 4–2	Kevin Cash (MOY)[45]
2021	2021	AL	East ^	1st	100	62	.617	—	Lost ALDS (Red Sox) 3–1	Randy Arozarena (ROY)[46] Kevin Cash (MOY)[45]
2022	2022	AL	East	3rd ¤	86	76	.531	13	Lost ALWC (Guardians)

Since 2008 they've been to the post season eight times, including AL Champs in 2008 and 2020.

Not too shabby, huh???  I'd (We'd??) be much happier with our Twins had they demonstrated this level of success in the past five years......no???

And while this might be a broad brush, they seem to get the very best out of their pitchers.  Their team ERA and WHIP were 4th best to Dodger$, A$tro$ and Yankee$.  From a distance, it looks like those who move on to other teams leave their best success behind in Tampa.

And they have shown a willingness to spend when prudent.  The team BB dislikes immensely just signed a 29 year old starting pitcher with 20 career wins to a $30.3M two-year contract.  How terrible!!??

BB.....if the headline was click bait, ya got me.....lol.  If not, i think you've help me identify my second favorite MLB team.  :-)

Agree with you BSL. You have to admire them for how they compete in the AL East and especially their success against the "Evil Empire" which the Twins have a difficult time against. I also admire their evaluation, scouting, development & management where they keep pumping out great pitching. The players they need to keep, they keep. They know the value of their players & when a pitcher is over valued (hyped) they trade them for well scouted prospects, so they can continue to compete.

They're able to compete much better than teams with higher payrolls, CO for example. Many teams even with greater payroll choses to "tank" to get better prospects & regroup. TB doesn't resort to that, & IMO that's admirable. By not avoiding arbitration is not a good look but I'm not qualified to comment. 

[Fatbat]

I can not hate a team that beats up on the Yankees. 

[Brandon]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:30 PM, Vanimal46 said:

Their method of player identification in acquisitions and player development is enviable. The rest of their operation is a bad look for a growing league. 

I don’t know why Manfred has not been more assertive towards the Rays and A’s to get a new stadium under construction. Oakland’s stadium has been a dump for 30 years. Tampa’s situation isn’t any better. 

Once upon a time Terry Ryan went on such a hot streak acquiring prospects he started having trouble acquiring them.  

[ChermesZ]

It is hard to dislike Tampa for its economic decisions.  Player Value is based off the top outliers, not the average player in the MLB.  We used to call it ‘Lunds and Byerlys’ value when it came to arbitration.  
 

I have heard the millionaires vs billionaires description many times.   I dislike both taking advantage of the average joe.  All costs going up for fan, whether it is food, tickets, or cable prices, we all pay.

 

I also laud Tampa for not tanking.  In no way should big markets be allowed to tank - that’s a joke and a really bad look for baseball.  They can and should spend money (and lots) instead of losing on purpose and then spending tons of money when it’s time.  (Looking at you cubs, astros, and rangers….). They are worse in my book than Tampa when it comes to economic abuses in the MLB.

[Trov]

Not sure why not signing 7 players pre arbitration deadline, which I think they can still come to agreement prior to actually doing the system, is a reason to hate a team.  It is built into the agreement.  You can not like how the Rays operate and feel they should pony up more money for players, but what if the players number they are asking for is just crazy?  We do not know what is being asked right now for those 7, and normally we find out sides are just a few hundred thousand apart, but we do not know the talks prior to the deadline. 

We also do not know the books of the team, we do know, that despite winning they never draw crowds.  Could that be lack of identified long term player?  I doubt that as they had Longeria for years and winning but still drew terrible.  Is it he stadium, that could be a reason, I know I hated going to the dome for games. 

The Rays early on tried the big names high offense teams at first, and it did not work.  Then someone said lets think outside the box, similar to Oakland, and they started winning.  Their are reports they are trying to talk to bigger name FA, but similar to Twins, normally coming up short.  Maybe players do not like playing for them, but they also are known for giving guys a shot that have not had a chance in other teams.  Many times, the guys they do let go or trade away, do not perform well away from Tampa, save for a few.  

[TwinsDr2021]

On 1/14/2023 at 8:34 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Every time we remember to pay attention, they're just doing something kinda crappy to their players.

 I have come to dislike that franchise immensely.

I respects your opinion, the Rays have won 86 games or more the last 5 years (they were on pace for that in 2000)

The Twins have done that twice, it seems more like jealousy than dislike. The Rays are doing things the Twins aren't and for a fraction of the price. 

"they're doing something kinda crappy to their players", you mean like sending Buxton to the minors or not bringing up prospects until the very end of the year in 21?

I mean there is close to zero percent chance I could be a fan of the Rays, but the Twins are heading down that same road.

 

[notoriousgod71]

I will always dislike the rays for popularizing the opener. That alone should be enough to contract them.

[Unwinder]

I think that even though the Rays' limits are self-imposed and lead them to do sleazy things, it's still very hard not to view them as a David to large-market teams' Goliath. An underdog that's an underdog out of stinginess and greed still comes off better than a non-underdog. I think something in us is programmed to root for the little guy even when the little guy doesn't actually deserve it.

[David HK]

I'm fine hating them. 

And that god-awful park, the only one worse than the HumpDome.