Trevor Bauer

[tarheeltwinsfan]

On 12/23/2022 at 1:37 PM, Fire Dan Gladden said:

  MLB had to suspend him regardless of what they though internally.

 

If the above is correct, and I submit it is not, then Treavor Bauer probably has a hell of a lawsuit against MLB for slander and possibly the Dodgers for breach of contract. 

[Unwinder]

Hate to be the hysterical "think of the children" person here, but another factor in this is that I don't want to take my little girl to ballgames and have to explain why Bauer is controversial. This game is still for kids, even if there aren't so many kids watching it these days.

[James]

[Fire Dan Gladden]

5 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

If the above is correct, and I submit it is not, then Treavor Bauer probably has a hell of a lawsuit against MLB for slander and possibly the Dodgers for breach of contract. 

If you think things are that black and white, that the entire contractual relationship between MLB and the MLBPA is not vague enough to accommodate this type of action, not to mention the backlash both public and private against the mediator if he didn't suspend him, I can't help you.  

[Fire Dan Gladden]

4 hours ago, Unwinder said:

Hate to be the hysterical "think of the children" person here, but another factor in this is that I don't want to take my little girl to ballgames and have to explain why Bauer is controversial. This game is still for kids, even if there aren't so many kids watching it these days.

I am going to pick on you for a minute...

I hope that every commenter like this never talks positively about:

Kirby Puckett
Chuck Knoblauch
Bobby Cox
Darryl Strawberry
Jose Canseco
Albert Belle
Milton Bradley
Omar Vizquel
Yasial Puig
Jose Reyes
Aroldis Chapman

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  I am not defending anybody, just trying to avoid any hypocrisy is all...

[chpettit19]

27 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

If you think things are that black and white, that the entire contractual relationship between MLB and the MLBPA is not vague enough to accommodate this type of action, not to mention the backlash both public and private against the mediator if he didn't suspend him, I can't help you.  

Man, if the MLBPA can't even get a truly neutral arbitrator who isn't afraid of backlash so will rule as they see fit, and not just do what the league wants, they're in trouble. Especially since, in this case, the arbitrator would've just been giving Bauer some money since they couldn't take back the 194 games he already sat out. Definitely didn't need to take away a bunch of his 2023 money to make up for the pay he received before he was officially suspended.

If you think the MLBPA doesn't fight tooth and nail for their players, and would hesitate to help Bauer if they felt this ruling wasn't truly neutral, I can't help you. Either the MLBPA doesn't support Bauer either (which would be an indictment of him in and of itself), or they felt this ruling was neutral, and the arbitrator himself is neutral. They love taking every opportunity they get to go after the league when they think they're overstepping. Allowing a player to be suspended for over 162 games, and set that precedent, isn't something the MLBPA would take lightly.

[Parfigliano]

22 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Man, if the MLBPA can't even get a truly neutral arbitrator who isn't afraid of backlash so will rule as they see fit, and not just do what the league wants, they're in trouble. Especially since, in this case, the arbitrator would've just been giving Bauer some money since they couldn't take back the 194 games he already sat out. Definitely didn't need to take away a bunch of his 2023 money to make up for the pay he received before he was officially suspended.

If you think the MLBPA doesn't fight tooth and nail for their players, and would hesitate to help Bauer if they felt this ruling wasn't truly neutral, I can't help you. Either the MLBPA doesn't support Bauer either (which would be an indictment of him in and of itself), or they felt this ruling was neutral, and the arbitrator himself is neutral. They love taking every opportunity they get to go after the league when they think they're overstepping. Allowing a player to be suspended for over 162 games, and set that precedent, isn't something the MLBPA would take lightly.

If the MLBPA thought Bauer wasnt getting treated according to the agreement with MLB they would back Bauer 110% no questions asked.  No matter what the accusation concerned.  

[Fire Dan Gladden]

19 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Man, if the MLBPA can't even get a truly neutral arbitrator who isn't afraid of backlash so will rule as they see fit, and not just do what the league wants, they're in trouble. Especially since, in this case, the arbitrator would've just been giving Bauer some money since they couldn't take back the 194 games he already sat out. Definitely didn't need to take away a bunch of his 2023 money to make up for the pay he received before he was officially suspended.

If you think the MLBPA doesn't fight tooth and nail for their players, and would hesitate to help Bauer if they felt this ruling wasn't truly neutral, I can't help you. Either the MLBPA doesn't support Bauer either (which would be an indictment of him in and of itself), or they felt this ruling was neutral, and the arbitrator himself is neutral. They love taking every opportunity they get to go after the league when they think they're overstepping. Allowing a player to be suspended for over 162 games, and set that precedent, isn't something the MLBPA would take lightly.

You are assuming that the MLBPA wanted to fight for Bauer.  They are in perception jail just as much as MLB.

I want to cover a very narrow point here.  Not about Bauer as a person, not his morals, not Bauer as a teammate:

Public perception dictated a large percentage of this process. The public found him morally reprehensible and judged him before any law enforcement process.  The actual morality of his actions are still in question, we still don't truly know if it was consensual.  But true or not, the perception of him is that he abuses women.  Neither MLB nor MLBPA could afford to take the PR hit by actively defending him, so they didn't.

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

You are assuming that the MLBPA wanted to fight for Bauer.  They are in perception jail just as much as MLB.

I want to cover a very narrow point here.  Not about Bauer as a person, not his morals, not Bauer as a teammate:

Public perception dictated a large percentage of this process. The public found him morally reprehensible and judged him before any law enforcement process.  The actual morality of his actions are still in question, we still don't truly know if it was consensual.  But true or not, the perception of him is that he abuses women.  Neither MLB nor MLBPA could afford to take the PR hit by actively defending him, so they didn't.

I understand what you're trying to cover here. And I'm saying you're so far off about the MLBPA that it's hard to fathom. The MLBPA has fought for plenty of players who have had just as poor public situations as Bauer. And, if they thought he wasn't treated fairly by the system in place, they would've fought for Bauer. The idea that MLB would suspend him for more games than they felt necessary for PR reasons is totally accurate. But the idea that the MLBPA cares at all about that is wholly, and truly incorrect.

Even if you think they don't like Bauer and wouldn't want to fight for him, they care about themselves, and won't give MLB an inch, let alone the mile they got here. Even if the MLBPA wouldn't care if they'd banned Bauer for life, they'd still care about the precedent being set and what it means in their ability to take action in the future. It's not really even about Bauer. The MLBPA won't ever let something go through the neutral arbitration process that they don't feel was neutral. Never. No matter who the player is, or what the public feels about them. Because if they let it happen once they're doomed. The MLBPA felt this arbitrator is neutral, and made a neutral decision based on the testimony they witnessed.

[Unwinder]

1 hour ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

I am going to pick on you for a minute...

I hope that every commenter like this never talks positively about:

Kirby Puckett
Chuck Knoblauch
Bobby Cox
Darryl Strawberry
Jose Canseco
Albert Belle
Milton Bradley
Omar Vizquel
Yasial Puig
Jose Reyes
Aroldis Chapman

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  I am not defending anybody, just trying to avoid any hypocrisy is all...

These are all before my time, I'm young and haven't been following baseball for very long. 

EDIT: And if you think that a good response to "I don't want to take my kid to see a guy who's allegedly a scumbag" is "actually baseball is full of scumbags" then... well played I guess?

[tarheeltwinsfan]

1 hour ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

If you think things are that black and white, that the entire contractual relationship between MLB and the MLBPA is not vague enough to accommodate this type of action, not to mention the backlash both public and private against the mediator if he didn't suspend him, I can't help you.  

Then I guess I'm beyond your help, my friend. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. 

[Fire Dan Gladden]

52 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I understand what you're trying to cover here. And I'm saying you're so far off about the MLBPA that it's hard to fathom. The MLBPA has fought for plenty of players who have had just as poor public situations as Bauer. And, if they thought he wasn't treated fairly by the system in place, they would've fought for Bauer. The idea that MLB would suspend him for more games than they felt necessary for PR reasons is totally accurate. But the idea that the MLBPA cares at all about that is wholly, and truly incorrect.

Even if you think they don't like Bauer and wouldn't want to fight for him, they care about themselves, and won't give MLB an inch, let alone the mile they got here. Even if the MLBPA wouldn't care if they'd banned Bauer for life, they'd still care about the precedent being set and what it means in their ability to take action in the future. It's not really even about Bauer. The MLBPA won't ever let something go through the neutral arbitration process that they don't feel was neutral. Never. No matter who the player is, or what the public feels about them. Because if they let it happen once they're doomed. The MLBPA felt this arbitrator is neutral, and made a neutral decision based on the testimony they witnessed.

I understand the point you are trying to make.  Let me try this differently:

In a bubble, the MLBPA's job is to fight tooth and nail for their players.  Bauer did nothing legally wrong.  There is evidence that it was consensual.   Bauer has a claim that he should never have been suspended at all.  (I am not going to argue semantics here, he had a claim).

Do you think the MLBPA went zealously all out to protect Bauer?  Did they throw everything but the kitchen sink at MLB, the media, the accuser to reduce Bauer's suspension?  Nope.  

This suspension was all about perception.  If they had done any proactive work to protect Bauer, in the eyes of the public they would be condoning domestic abuse.  In today's environment, that was not going to happen.  

There is a reason why Bauer was willing to take this to federal court, he knew nobody had his best interests in mind.  He also knew that if it went to federal court, his career would be definitively over instead of probably over.

[Squirrel]

1 minute ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

I understand the point you are trying to make.  Let me try this differently:

In a bubble, the MLBPA's job is to fight tooth and nail for their players.  Bauer did nothing legally wrong.  There is evidence that it was consensual.   Bauer has a claim that he should never have been suspended at all.  (I am not going to argue semantics here, he had a claim).

Do you think the MLBPA went zealously all out to protect Bauer?  Did they throw everything but the kitchen sink at MLB, the media, the accuser to reduce Bauer's suspension?  Nope.  

This suspension was all about perception.  If they had done any proactive work to protect Bauer, in the eyes of the public they would be condoning domestic abuse.  In today's environment, that was not going to happen.  

There is a reason why Bauer was willing to take this to federal court, he knew nobody had his best interests in mind.  He also knew that if it went to federal court, his career would be definitively over instead of probably over.

At this point, I'm not really sure what you are proposing in regards to Bauer. Do you think the Twins should give him a contract, is that your point? 

[Fire Dan Gladden]

48 minutes ago, Unwinder said:

These are all before my time, I'm young and haven't been following baseball for very long. 

EDIT: And if you think that a good response to "I don't want to take my kid to see a guy who's allegedly a scumbag" is "actually baseball is full of scumbags" then... well played I guess?

Thank you for not screaming at me.

All I am saying is that if you are going not root for bad people in baseball, or sports in general, the list of bad people is a lot longer than you think.  That list of individuals all have public domestic abuse issues.  Many of them are still revered... It is tough to be a sports fan sometimes.

[Unwinder]

Just now, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Thank you for not screaming at me.

All I am saying is that if you are going not root for bad people in baseball, or sports in general, the list of bad people is a lot longer than you think.  That list of individuals all have public domestic abuse issues.  Many of them are still revered... It is tough to be a sports fan sometimes.

you're going to talk me out of baseball before you talk me into Bauer with this line of thought.

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

I understand the point you are trying to make.  Let me try this differently:

In a bubble, the MLBPA's job is to fight tooth and nail for their players.  Bauer did nothing legally wrong.  There is evidence that it was consensual.   Bauer has a claim that he should never have been suspended at all.  (I am not going to argue semantics here, he had a claim).

Do you think the MLBPA went zealously all out to protect Bauer?  Did they throw everything but the kitchen sink at MLB, the media, the accuser to reduce Bauer's suspension?  Nope.  

This suspension was all about perception.  If they had done any proactive work to protect Bauer, in the eyes of the public they would be condoning domestic abuse.  In today's environment, that was not going to happen.  

There is a reason why Bauer was willing to take this to federal court, he knew nobody had his best interests in mind.  He also knew that if it went to federal court, his career would be definitively over instead of probably over.

We clearly just disagree. And I couldn't disagree more. And, again, it's not even about Bauer. The MLBPA throw absolutely everything they have at every appeal. And Bauer had his own lawyers and representatives involved. The idea that the ruling by the arbitrator was simply because of PR is wrong. There's far more to it than that. And Bauer would be suing MLB and the MLBPA if he felt this wasn't neutral. His lawyers would have a whole stack of evidence that'd blow MLB up if what you're suggesting were true.

[Squirrel]

1 minute ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Thank you for not screaming at me.

All I am saying is that if you are going not root for bad people in baseball, or sports in general, the list of bad people is a lot longer than you think.  That list of individuals all have public domestic abuse issues.  Many of them are still revered... It is tough to be a sports fan sometimes.

How many of them sought counseling and went through some kind of program to change, how many did change? That is part of the issue. But let's not make this a 'what about' argument because that doesn't actually make any kind of point to why you want Bauer on the Twins. I think it's fair to say some want him because of the pitcher he may still be and we need better pitchers, but for others, it's just way too big of a cost. It's not about how we cheer on anyone else so you can claim we are all hypocrites, because that does nothing for the discussion but lead us down a sidetrack.

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

I am going to pick on you for a minute...

I hope that every commenter like this never talks positively about:

Kirby Puckett
Chuck Knoblauch
Bobby Cox
Darryl Strawberry
Jose Canseco
Albert Belle
Milton Bradley
Omar Vizquel
Yasial Puig
Jose Reyes
Aroldis Chapman

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  I am not defending anybody, just trying to avoid any hypocrisy is all...

I also do not like any of those players and do not want them playing on a team I care about.

Was this a trick question?

[Fire Dan Gladden]

1 minute ago, Squirrel said:

How many of them sought counseling and went through some kind of program to change, how many did change? That is part of the issue. But let's not make this a 'what about' argument because that doesn't actually make any kind of point to why you want Bauer on the Twins. I think it's fair to say some want him because of the pitcher he may still be and we need better pitchers, but for others, it's just way too big of a cost. It's not about how we cheer on anyone else so you can claim we are all hypocrites, because that does nothing for the discussion but lead us down a sidetrack.

Agreed.

I have not advocated for Bauer.  The PR issues aside, I do not think the Twins clubhouse is strong enough to handle a guy like Bauer.

I also don't think the Twins want to work on a potential reclamation project at this stage of their team building.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

3 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I also do not like any of those players and do not want them playing on a team I care about.

Was this a trick question?

Just reminding people on their soapbox not to be hypocritical.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Just reminding people on their soapbox not to be hypocritical.

I mean, there are a lot of terrible people who have donned baseball uniforms over the years. Everybody draws their line at different places. I don't actually care if someone wants Bauer on their team, that's their right as a person. People may feel differently about drunken driving than they do domestic abuse in either direction. That's their right, really.

[Squirrel]

7 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

I have not advocated for Bauer.  The PR issues aside, I do not think the Twins clubhouse is strong enough to handle a guy like Bauer.

And this is what most of us are saying. He has a track record of being disliked by teammates and causing issues in the clubhouse wherever he goes going back to college. And on top of that he shows no remorse, none, about anything he does. Leave everything out of it having to do with his reputation with women, and just his reputation as a player and teammate and colleague ... none of it has shown to be good. Talent alone never gets it done. I work in a profession based on talent ... you get a job, then you go through a tenure process to see what kind of a colleague you are, and some just don't pass, for a number of reasons. I think it's an apt comparison to Bauer. What good he might bring as a pitcher would just be too costly for what bad he would bring to the team, imo.

[bap3141]

If we move past all that other "stuff" about Bauer, what would the Twins really be getting?

He's wildly inconsistent.  Do you get the 4.50 ERA guy, the 6.4 ERA guy with the Reds in 2019, or the Cy Young pitcher of 2020? 

He's still a rotten teammate, by all accounts

And, of course, he hasn't pitched professional ball for almost 2 seasons now.   

[Nine of twelve]

1 hour ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Bauer did nothing legally wrong. 

Maybe that's true. Maybe not, I don't know. But thousands of people sign contracts every day proscribing conduct that is not illegal. Several U of M football players were expelled several years ago because their conduct, while not illegal, fell outside the terms that all students agree to abide by when they enroll. I don't know the detailed ins and outs of the MLB CBA, but I expect that Bauer's conduct fell outside the terms he agreed to when he signed his contract.

And I don't care about any other concerns. I don't care if he's the second coming of Nolan Ryan on the mound. If I were running an MLB front office I would never sign him to play on my team.

[Steve71]

I see some useful comparison to the Ray Rice case.

NFL originally suspends him for a single game, then the video gets out on TMZ, and the public outcry forces the NFL to reassess and drop the hammer---which they should have done in the first place.  The NFLPA was also not going to go out of its way to defend a guy seen punching and then dragging his girlfriend by the hair off an elevator.  

Bauer may have a sick sex life, which may or may not be consensual, but he is toxic due to the nature of the accusations, especially as society has become more "woke" since the Rice case was reviewed.

I sincerely doubt Bauer will ever play MLB again.  Not sure if that is fair, but it is the probable reality now.  The good news for him is that he is set for life financially.

[Matthew Lenz]

The baggage isn’t worth the production. Not to mention the price tag.

[ToriiRules!!]

700,000 and some change sign him up, everyone deserves a second chance 

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, ToriiRules!! said:

700,000 and some change sign him up, everyone deserves a second chance 

Multiple women over multiple years. Multiple teams over multiple years. All without a shred of remorse. That's not a "second chance."

[DFlow]

Would like to point out that "clubhouse vibes" are extremely overblown. The Twins and Wild have had great locker rooms over the past few years to achieve........nothing. The reality is that with Correa, the Twins are still the 15th best overall fWAR team all included. Unsurprisingly, it's ugly when isolating just the pitching staff. They don't have immediate prospects or remaining free agents who could improve those number substantially. Barring an unforeseen major trade unloading prospect capital, we need to make some decisions as we have given up a lot of prospect capital as it stands for 2023 (see Gray and Mahle trades). 

I'm not a big fan of Bauer, but the Dodgers are paying his salary this year already. For 2-3 million from our end, you get substantial value that could meaningfully benefit your roster without sacrificing the prospect pipeline.  I personally wish we could have closed Rodon and not be in this position at all, but we wont win in October with this rotation as it stands. There is also not an arbitration level pitcher who would be better than Bauer (no Pablo Lopez is not better). 

 

[strumdatjag]

Purely from a un-moralistic, baseball standpoint - after the signing of Carlos Correa, the Twins biggest need this year is a stud starting pitcher.    Trevor Bauer may or may not be that guy after his layoff.  But the Twins can sign him on the cheap   If he is a clubhouse cancer, not contributing on the field or engages in illegal conduct, they can DFA him.   
He has much more upside than Steve Howe on his sixth and seventh chance. Bauer is the potential last piece to a World Series team - sign him NOW!!!

Then trade some of our surplus lefties  or maybe even Arraez or Farmer and start stocking our minor leagues with more starting pitching prospects.  This team needs more depth there for the next six years with CC and Buxton a company..