Rumor: Twins Interested in Michael Wacha

[Richie the Rally Goat]

7 hours ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

I'd rather have Wacha than Bundy or Archer......

That’s a low bar

[sorney]

Some things never change. Twins should TOTALLY sign a veteran 5th starter so they can block their MiLB pitchers longer.  We all know this is going to be a rebuild year.  Let's see what the pitching pipeline can finally do

[tony&rodney]

Wacha as a small part of a grand movement of chairs.

1. Burnes acquired for Miranda, Ryan, and Martin after agreeing to a long term contract.

2. Cabrera and Luzardo acquired for Larnach, Winder, Raya, and Miller.

3. Kim acquired for Mahle and ..... Pagan.

Wait. NEVERMIND.

[jorgenswest]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

Wacha as a small part of a grand movement of chairs.

1. Burnes acquired for Miranda, Ryan, and Martin after agreeing to a long term contract.

2. Cabrera and Luzardo acquired for Larnach, Winder, Raya, and Miller.

3. Kim acquired for Mahle and ..... Pagan.

Wait. NEVERMIND.

If last winter you outlined the trade with the Rangers, the trade with the Yankees and the signing of Correa I think I would have thought it less likely.

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

You really need to stop with the new FO kool-aid. 

Wacha was worth 3.3 WAR which would have led this team. And he did it in the AL East. And he was a good pitcher for a while. I trust him a lot more than AAAA guys like Ober and Dobnak. But it also might depend on what you think the Twins should be doing. If you think rebuild, then he doesn't make sense - except maybe as a guy you flip at the trade deadline. If you think the Twins are going to compete for the AL central, well, then you need to start signing better pitchers than what we have b/c we have a bunch of really bad pitchers. 

Oh yeah, I’ve really been singing the front office’s praises. That post was full of them and not completely the opposite.

Have you seen Wacha’s stats prior to last year? Who’d trust this guy? Velocity, pitch selection, spin rate, nothing changed for the better with him, last year was a total fluke.

If Wacha reverts back to his pre 2022 self, which is THE most likely scenario, this team is once again going to be pushing out another Bundy/Archer for 20-25 games this year. Terrible move.

We can put your Ervin Santana and Michael Pineda against my Nolasco, Prelfrey, Perez, Bailey, Happ, Schoemacher, Bundy and Archer. We can even call Phil Hughes a draw. These kinds of pitchers are almost always a sucker bet. Run away.

[bap3141]

No

[dxpavelka]

11 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Gross. Ober, Varland, SWR, Winder. All better options. A groundball pitcher with this infield defense? Why? Not to mention he lost a MPH off of his fastball last year. Top of the rotation arms or AAAA break-glass-in-case-of-emergency starters that can roost in St. Paul. That's it.

Zero reason to pay these zero upside vets to take a rotation spot away from the young players except that they want to look like they're actually spending money. It's too late, the good players are all gone. Don't make the team worse trying to window dress the mistakes you made earlier this year.

Except we're coming off a season in which NONE of the guys you listed grabbed a rotation spot by the balls and squeezed it.

[TwinsDr2021]

7 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

Except we're coming off a season in which NONE of the guys you listed grabbed a rotation spot by the balls and squeezed it.

Richardson pitched 107.3 innings last year at age 21 in AA and AAA with a 2.77 ERA and 115 K's. Varland pitched 126.3 innings in AA and AAA with a 3.06 ERA and 146 K's, Plus the 26 innings in 5 starts with the twins. Not sure it is the players fault they weren't given a chance to pitch in the majors last year and Archers was? Varland did enough last year to deserve the 5/6 starting pitcher as long as he doesn't pee down his leg in spring training. SWR did enough last year to be next guy up if/when an injury happens to a starter. The Twins absolutely need to establish at least another young starter this year (Assuming Ryan, Ober still are deserving) Plus they need to start figuring out what they have with all those prospects they have on the 40. This can be done without rebuilding and trying to compete.

[TopGunn#22]

A move for Wacha would not move the needle one bit.  

[bloggymcbloggerson]

13 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

Don’t get me started on Eovaldi………!!! 2 years for $34 million - almost free in the shade of the Correa offer & when contrasted with the Gallo signing!

,,,and Wacha had an even better season than eovaldi did

[DJL44]

14 hours ago, sorney said:

We all know this is going to be a rebuild year. 

Even if that's true they should still be looking for two veteran pitchers to add to the roster. Worst case they release them, best case they flip them at the trade deadline. It may be Feb 15th before those pitchers sign.

[Trov]

18 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

That would suggest three per team. I expect our pipeline to create those. If the Twins go all-in (and it looks like they will) on this 4-5 inning opener concept, they'll be sub-.500 in the easiest division again while making the game nearly unwatchable. Our staff is mostly junk, we had three players who managed to be worth at least 1 WAR - Gray, Ryan, Duran. They need better pitchers and a better philosophy. 

But Wacha is fine. He's probably our best or second best pitcher.

I will not deny we could use an upgrade at pitching overall, the numbers show that.  However, you say they need a better philosophy as well.  I would disagree with that.  You point to total number of innings pitched, but if you look at innings per start, outside of Archer, most put up around 5 innings per start.  Ryan was about 5.5 innings per start.  The Rays, who had a winning team in a tough division, averaged around the same innings per start, just around 5, for their starters.  

I am not saying I agree with the 5 and fly when a guy still has stuff, but it is not like it cannot work if done right.  The issue was also the fact that the pen was not deep enough to sustain so many innings every day. So improve the staff, but you can make the shorter starts work. 

[laloesch]

Pointless signing.  Fully commit to the rebuild this season and stop the dumpster diving.  

[USAFChief]

16 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

That’s a low bar

Avian flu > Wacha > Archer > Bundy

[cHawk]

Falvine need to fully commit to either winning now (in 2023) or rebuilding for the future. Signing Wacha would be pointless in regard to the former, and inhibitory in regard to the latter.

Wacha is nothing more than an average pitcher on the wrong side of 30. He will not improve the rotation in any way.

[Battle ur tail off]

Feels like another dumpster move. I'm fine with it ONLY if you can get him on a one-year deal. I don't trust any of our starters to be healthy this season. Literally every guy in our rotation had some time off last year. It's laughable really.

If this gives them more depth to feel secure, great. But make it so that the contract is one that you can DFA him immediately if he struggles or if your young guys grab spots and run. 100% this signing would be no different than Bundy or Archer. 

Signing this guy does not mean that the Twins cannot still trade for pitching that slots 1-2. 

It probably doesn't matter either way as our bullpen is still looking terrible. I cannot believe they haven't addressed this by going out and getting power arms. The team that wants to do nothing but use 4-5 bullpen guys per game and we are not going to address this area of the team at all.?

[sun]

Last Aug. 14th, Wacha won pitching  7 innings against the Yankees giving up zero runs, 2 hits, 9K's.

Last Aug. 31st, Wacha won pitching 6 innings against the Twins giving up 2 runs & 4 hits.

Last Sept. 22nd, Wacha pitched 6 innings in a no decision against the Yankees giving up 3 runs, 6 hits including 1 HR.

I trust the FO enough that if they decide to sign him that means that we need him & could use him and I'll root for him without any reservations. His job is to do his best to keep us in the game against any & all opponents. It seems like he might be a good value with a Spotrac estimated market value of $11.9 mil per year for 4 years Another thing that impresses me is that he pitched a complete game in his first start last year which the Twins haven't had a complete game pitched since Pavano in 2011. If Wacha is willing to come to Minnesota then sign him. His starting pitcher rank is 33rd. He was also a 1st round draft pick in 2012. 

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, cHawk said:

Falvine need to fully commit to either winning now (in 2023) or rebuilding for the future. Signing Wacha would be pointless in regard to the former, and inhibitory in regard to the latter.

Wacha is nothing more than an average pitcher on the wrong side of 30. He will not improve the rotation in any way.

Well they haven't traded Gray, Mahle, Kepler, and Polanco (and they signed Gallo) so I am thinking this isn't a rebuilding year in their mind. Letting Gray and Mahle go for nothing at the end of the year after giving up what they gave up would be unforgivable and a fire able offense.  IMO three years in a row with no playoffs is also a fire-able offense.

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Well they haven't traded Gray, Mahle, Kepler, and Polanco (and they signed Gallo) so I am thinking this isn't a rebuilding year in their mind. Letting Gray and Mahle go for nothing at the end of the year after giving up what they gave up would be unforgivable and a fire able offense.  IMO three years in a row with no playoffs is also a fire-able offense.

To be fair they'd likely put a QO on both Gray and Mahle (and Gallo if he's good) at the end of the year, so they wouldn't lose them for nothing.

[spanman2]

At this point why not?  Who knows...not this guy.  

[TwinsDr2021]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

To be fair they'd likely put a QO on both Gray and Mahle (and Gallo if he's good) at the end of the year, so they wouldn't lose them for nothing.

True and that gives hope that in 4 to 7 years those picks will be the next wave of saviors.

[cHawk]

17 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Well they haven't traded Gray, Mahle, Kepler, and Polanco (and they signed Gallo) so I am thinking this isn't a rebuilding year in their mind. Letting Gray and Mahle go for nothing at the end of the year after giving up what they gave up would be unforgivable and a fire able offense.  IMO three years in a row with no playoffs is also a fire-able offense.

If they do indeed aspire to win in 2023, the Twins' roster (as it stands at this point in time) is well short of that of a World Series team. I couldn't fathom Falvine being able to add near enough talent to make the roster World Series-quality. All of the major free agents are gone, and the Twins have a below average farm system to acquire talent through trade. At this point, a rebuild appears to be the only way forward for our Twins, assuming they aspire to win a World Series.

And if they choose to rebuild, Falvey and Levine do not deserve to take part in said rebuild.

[Riverbrian]

I don't see a need for Wacha. We should be at the point with enough decent young arms that we don't need a Bundy type to get through the season. Not saying Wacha is Bundy but he has the potential to be close enough that I'd rather let the young pitchers continue on their journey upward by filling the innings that Wacha would occupy. 

[Mike Sixel]

26 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Well they haven't traded Gray, Mahle, Kepler, and Polanco (and they signed Gallo) so I am thinking this isn't a rebuilding year in their mind. Letting Gray and Mahle go for nothing at the end of the year after giving up what they gave up would be unforgivable and a fire able offense.  IMO three years in a row with no playoffs is also a fire-able offense.

Nearly every front office in the game would be fired.......

If they are out of it, they'll t trade those guys. 

[chpettit19]

14 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

True and that gives hope that in 4 to 7 years those picks will be the next wave of saviors.

And? Hajjar and Petty are the only 2 guys that they gave up for either of those guys that could fill a probable opening on the Twins roster in the next few years. Steer would be starting the year in AAA for the Twins next year where the Twins will instead have Julien. And somebody on the current 40-man wouldn't be there because Steer would need a spot (there's certainly a couple pitchers I'd remove for him in a vacuum). Encarnacion-Strand would probably split his year between AA and AAA next year as a no defense corner IF/DH who'd be blocked at the big league level by Miranda, Arraez, likely Lee jumps him quickly, Julien possibly, Martin possibly, and Kirilloff. I don't see Steer or CES as massive loses in your "after giving up what they gave up" statement. Unless you think they're going to be significantly better than the other 6 guys I just listed.

They gave up Petty (the 26th overall pick) for 2 years of Gray and what could be pick 31 in 2024 (depending on how much he signs for with another team). "Losing him for nothing" looks an awful lot like getting 2 years of a pretty darn good major league pitcher and the chance to get a similar prospect to the one they gave up. All for a kid who'd thrown 5 innings in rookie ball at the time of the trade.

Hajjar was a 2nd round pick (#61 overall) who's in A+ ball at this point. So, again, "losing him for nothing" looks to me like giving up 2 hitting prospects blocked by better hitting, and fielding, prospects and/or current major leaguers, and a low level starter with upside for 1.5 years of a pretty darn good major league pitcher (granted the .5 year didn't go as hoped) and a pick that would likely be an entire round higher than where they got Hajjar.

 

[Major League Ready]

Gray / Mahle / Ryan / Ober / Maeda / Varland / SWR / Paddack / Winder / Dobnak

At some point it's time to invest innings in guys that will, negate any need to sign guys like Wacha for the next several years.  Signing Wacha with Varland and SWR ready with at least 5 guys ahead of them makes no sense.  Those two guys should be given a chance.  With a little Luck Winder or Dobnak will earn a shot too.

[Craig Arko]

Whenever I see this guy’s name I can’t help but think of Fozzie Bear.

[GCTF]

9 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Avian flu > Wacha > Archer > Bundy

A for effort. Could have been A+ if you had worked ebola and/or Jim Hoey in.

[IndianaTwin]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

Gray / Mahle / Ryan / Ober / Maeda / Varland / SWR / Paddack / Winder / Dobnak

At some point it's time to invest innings in guys that will, negate any need to sign guys like Wacha for the next several years.  Signing Wacha with Varland and SWR ready with at least 5 guys ahead of them makes no sense.  Those two guys should be given a chance.  With a little Luck Winder or Dobnak will earn a shot too.

MLR, I’m responding to yours because it’s the most convenient and because you’ve conveniently listed the starter options.

24 / 23 / 27 / 11(+4)/ 0 / 5(+23) / 1(+22) / 5 / 11 (+6) / 0(+6) 

That’s the number of starts those 10 guys had last year (including the minors in parentheses).

In summary, that’s three guys with 23+ starts in the majors; two with 23+ starts, but most of them in the minors; two guys with 15-17 starts (about one-third of them in the minors); a guy who missed the season and is coming off TJS; a guy with 5 starts, but not available until August because of TJS; and a guy with 6 minor league starts. 

All in all, I’m actually relatively encouraged by the potential strength and depth that group provides. But the only ones that feel like true locks are Ryan and Gray (and I’ll give you Mahle, though he did miss the last month-plus). I like Maeda. A lot. To my knowledge, I was the first person to suggest him as a trade target in an offseason blueprint. But I now find it interesting that a bunch of people seem to be using his presence, coming back from TJS, as a reason we don’t want an injury-prone Wacha. 

Folks have been clamoring for “ceiling.” That’s what Wacha presents. If you say, “What have you done for me lately,” he would arguably be the Opening Day starter if you consider starts (as many Mahle and Gray, a few fewer than Ryan), ERA+ (matching Gray, significantly better than Ryan or Mahle) and bWAR (0.9 more than any of them). He has always been highly regarded, a No. 1 draft pick, and at one point, we would have been clamoring to pick him up. 

Look, it always comes down to “at the right price.” I don’t see any of us advocating for a three-year deal. Only some of us are suggesting two years, which is what MLBTR predicted (at $8M/yr.). That he hasn’t gotten that yet makes one wonder whether that’s a bit high. If they could get him for something like $8M for one year, with $1M bonuses for 18, 21, 24 and 27 starts, maybe with a $1M option for a similar figure that vests at 24 starts, I think it would be worth taking a shot. 

In my mind, one of several things happens: 

• Maeda isn’t at full strength, Paddack isn’t back, etc. The added depth Wacha provides will be helpful — that list of 10 guys is now down to eight.
• He pitches great, as do others. If so, he was worth it, because the team is probably in contention. 
• He pitches great, others don’t. He’s a significant trade chip. His 16 or so starts by the deadline won’t have significantly limited the opportunity for young guys, since they will still get chances when other guys stink.
• He pitches poorly, others pitch great. He may still be a trade chip, because teams like “stuff.” Also, the team has actually shown a willingness to dump guys (Reed, Duffey, etc.) when they are on the last year of a contract and they have alternatives to use (Bundy and Archer don’t count — they didn’t realistically have options that were ready last midsummer). If Ober/SWR/Varland are beating down the door while Wacha struggles, I think they’d drop him.
• He pitches poorly, others also stink or are hurt (including the young ones). They needed the body.

And finally, remember that deals don’t happen in a vacuum. If signing Wacha gives them the freedom use another pitcher for a SS upgrade, for example, that’s also a win.

 

[Mike Sixel]

28 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

MLR, I’m responding to yours because it’s the most convenient and because you’ve conveniently listed the starter options.

24 / 23 / 27 / 11(+4)/ 0 / 5(+23) / 1(+22) / 5 / 11 (+6) / 0(+6) 

That’s the number of starts those 10 guys had last year (including the minors in parentheses).

In summary, that’s three guys with 23+ starts in the majors; two with 23+ starts, but most of them in the minors; two guys with 15-17 starts (about one-third of them in the minors); a guy who missed the season and is coming off TJS; a guy with 5 starts, but not available until August because of TJS; and a guy with 6 minor league starts. 

All in all, I’m actually relatively encouraged by the potential strength and depth that group provides. But the only ones that feel like true locks are Ryan and Gray (and I’ll give you Mahle, though he did miss the last month-plus). I like Maeda. A lot. To my knowledge, I was the first person to suggest him as a trade target in an offseason blueprint. But I now find it interesting that a bunch of people seem to be using his presence, coming back from TJS, as a reason we don’t want an injury-prone Wacha. 

Folks have been clamoring for “ceiling.” That’s what Wacha presents. If you say, “What have you done for me lately,” he would arguably be the Opening Day starter if you consider starts (as many Mahle and Gray, a few fewer than Ryan), ERA+ (matching Gray, significantly better than Ryan or Mahle) and bWAR (0.9 more than any of them). He has always been highly regarded, a No. 1 draft pick, and at one point, we would have been clamoring to pick him up. 

Look, it always comes down to “at the right price.” I don’t see any of us advocating for a three-year deal. Only some of us are suggesting two years, which is what MLBTR predicted (at $8M/yr.). That he hasn’t gotten that yet makes one wonder whether that’s a bit high. If they could get him for something like $8M for one year, with $1M bonuses for 18, 21, 24 and 27 starts, maybe with a $1M option for a similar figure that vests at 24 starts, I think it would be worth taking a shot. 

In my mind, one of several things happens: 

• Maeda isn’t at full strength, Paddack isn’t back, etc. The added depth Wacha provides will be helpful — that list of 10 guys is now down to eight.
• He pitches great, as do others. If so, he was worth it, because the team is probably in contention. 
• He pitches great, others don’t. He’s a significant trade chip. His 16 or so starts by the deadline won’t have significantly limited the opportunity for young guys, since they will still get chances when other guys stink.
• He pitches poorly, others pitch great. He may still be a trade chip, because teams like “stuff.” Also, the team has actually shown a willingness to dump guys (Reed, Duffey, etc.) when they are on the last year of a contract and they have alternatives to use (Bundy and Archer don’t count — they didn’t realistically have options that were ready last midsummer). If Ober/SWR/Varland are beating down the door while Wacha struggles, I think they’d drop him.
• He pitches poorly, others also stink or are hurt (including the young ones). They needed the body.

And finally, remember that deals don’t happen in a vacuum. If signing Wacha gives them the freedom use another pitcher for a SS upgrade, for example, that’s also a win.

 

You don't trust the new guys to start because they don't start so you sign a starter. You never trust these guys to start, then? If they trade a pitcher for a short term SS, that would be awful.