Again? The Twins Lose Carlos Correa to the Mets.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Good point Mike. Right now I am asking myself, "Self, why do you spend your time with this? Why do you have your moods affected by something over which you have no control? Isn't there a better way to spend your time?"  And just when I thought I was out, spring comes and they reel me back in ! 

Same

[TwinkieFan4life]

55 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why shouldn't it be bandwagon? Why should people support bad teams? Bandwagon fans are closer to logical than those that support bad teams. 

Look at my post.  I never said it shouldn't.  In fact I said, "I can't say I blame them."

However, I think for the sake of the game, baseball would want people to have a passing interest in it.  Most of my students, including the athletes, don't know who the players are.  This was as true in the Bomba squad year as it is now.

[Heiny]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

And just when I thought I was out, spring comes and they reel me back in ! 

Lol, love the Soprano reference.

 

[Mike Sixel]

7 minutes ago, TwinkieFan4life said:

Look at my post.  I never said it shouldn't.  In fact I said, "I can't say I blame them."

However, I think for the sake of the game, baseball would want people to have a passing interest in it.  Most of my students, including the athletes, don't know who the players are.  This was as true in the Bomba squad year as it is now.

Got it. Yes, baseball should want more. Agreed.

[mnfireman]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/12/scott-boras-comments-on-carlos-correa-situation.html

[EGFTShaw]

45 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

The evil empire has several franchises. NYY, NYM, LAD, Bos, Phi, LAA (even though they can't stay out of their own way), Hou. Tex, Cubs, CWS could soon join that club based on the population of their fan base, hence their TV revenue.

Definitely levels, maybe 7 as Dante once proposed?, of Evil Empires, but NYY will also be top, or bottom depending how you view it, for me. 

[ashbury]

4 hours ago, Minny505 said:

Guillorme and Farmer project for a 2+ WAR SS platoon for $7mil. That's a great deal. 

I want to like the idea because the two players do seem to complement each other.

But "2+" WAR at a position is average or slightly above, and yet not really a benchmark for winning a pennant.  Consuming 2 precious 26-man roster spots to accomplish it seems like pretty thin soup.

I might support trading for him, say for Pagan to clear a 40-man spot, but it means we're bottom feeding with aspirations of only .500, yet again.

[Linus]

59 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

At this level, I think people are over thinking taxes as an issue. I think guys want the biggest gross number when we are talking over 200 million. I really think people here over complicate this stuff. 

Plus the endorsement opportunities dwarf any difference in taxes. I can’t even imagine how much money he is going to make in nyc outside of his contract. 

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

If a salary cap becomes a thing, then so must setting a floor that owners cannot go under without strict financial penalties. I mean, payrolls running the difference from $60mil - $400mil … that’s huge. But what should be the cap, what should be the floor, and what should be the penalties?

No penalties, the floor and cap should be firm, just as the other pro leagues. And I'd say the difference between the two should be 50M max, probably closer to 25M. Probably use the other four leagues as guideposts for that determination.

Well, MLB could use the other leagues as guideposts for plenty of ideas at this point I guess. They ain't getting anything right as it stands now.

[Ricksauce]

Should we try to trade for Eduardo Escobar now that Correa bumps him off of 3B? He's stronger from the right side of the plate, and we could certainly use a righty bat. Not sure how much positional flexibility he has, so it might not be a perfect fit. But it would be fun to see him back in a Twins jersey!

[howeda7]

4 minutes ago, Ricksauce said:

Should we try to trade for Eduardo Escobar now that Correa bumps him off of 3B? He's stronger from the right side of the plate, and we could certainly use a righty bat. Not sure how much positional flexibility he has, so it might not be a perfect fit. But it would be fun to see him back in a Twins jersey!

As long as the price isn't steep. Yes. He Makes $10 million so that would save the Mets $15 million with the luxury tax. Pagan for Escobar straight up.

[rickyriolo]

Correa was never going to resign with the Twins. He wanted to play for an organization that will be a serious World Series contender every year. And that ain’t the Twins. 

[Craig Arko]

3 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

A) In what way did we dodge a bullet? The Giants are chicken bleeps who got cold feet. As evidenced by 2 other teams that we know of (NYM and us) offering 10+ years. 

B) The fallout is the same for the Mets for the last 36 years. Except now they have a rouge owner that is on a rampage buying the league. Sounds like a lot of fun to be a fan of them at the moment. 

Just wait until the diagnosis of bilateral leg weakness comes out.

[MN_ExPat]

5 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Just an FYI, but players pay taxes based on where they play each game. So he'll pay NY taxes for all his home games, and games against the Yankees, but the rest of his taxes are paid in the state/city where he plays road games. It's not a 1 for 1 look when comparing NY to MN.

Not saying that I don't believe you, but just a little confused by this one ?. 

Perhaps baseball is run differently... but I and many of my cohorts have to travel nationwide for work (sometimes for extended periods of time).  We don't pay local taxes for the areas that we deploy to, those come out of our place of residence/home office.

Just doesn't make much sense that a person has to pay taxes in areas that they are required to travel to due to work and are only in for a limited period of time.  Can you further elaborate?

 

Edit:

Disregard chpettit, just found the follow on messages.

[bowserthedog]

Did Carlos just say goodbye to the hall by coming an average hitting 3rd basemen rather than circle back to the Twins.  Mets with the luxury tax are essentially paying 55m a year for an average hitting 3rd basemen. 

[roger]

5 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Just an FYI, but players pay taxes based on where they play each game. So he'll pay NY taxes for all his home games, and games against the Yankees, but the rest of his taxes are paid in the state/city where he plays road games. It's not a 1 for 1 look when comparing NY to MN.

Not true.  He pays the NY rate on his entire income.  He then gets a credit for the taxes paid to other states.

[Drewseph42]

3 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

My Waking Up to this News initial thoughts: 

- My first reaction yesterday was that the Giants looked bad, issuing the postponement but not providing much else. Of course, they really can't say anything about the physical, and this is a great example for why teams don't like when news breaks of a player agreeing to terms (PENDING PHYSICAL)... in most cases, failure of a physical would stay quiet, private. 

- But with this news of him heading to New York within about 5-6 hours of the Giants news, it now looks more like Correa wanted out of the Giants deal. He wants to play for a winning team. he looks at the Mets roster, the incredible starting pitching, adding bullpen arms, and the lineup, along with teaming with long-time friend Francisco Lindor and wanted to be there. Oh, and that Cohen guy is just going to keep spending. In this case, I think Correa is the one that kind of looks bad. If that's the case, he just shouldn't have committed to the Giants. However, he hadn't signed yet. 

Just a really weird situation. 

I honestly can’t see how Correa is the one who wanted to pull out of this somehow because of the competitive situation of the Giants. Other than Carlos Rodon not re-signing with them, what changed between when he agreed to terms and late last night? It’s not like the Giants medical staff wouldn’t have had a chance to review his prior medical records before putting out their ultimate offer.  The Giants got cold feet and wanted to change those previously agreed upon terms. 
 

It’s a weird situation, but I think it was ownership not wanting to pay Correa as much because of whatever came out of the physical and tried to low ball Correa/Boras. 
 

Something that I’d be curious about is if Boras called up the Twins (and any other teams that had been serious suitors) and gave them one last chance. So help me, if we didn’t get him in the end because Falvey/Levine had Do Not Disturb turned on….

[ashbury]

18 minutes ago, roger said:

Not true.  He pays the NY rate on his entire income.  He then gets a credit for the taxes paid to other states.

So how is that different to his bottom line than the shorthand terminology everyone else is using, that he pays tax in each state he plays? His accountant will have to fart around with a dozen or so state filings, but the net-net is that he'll pay less than the NY rate even when he signs with a NY team.

BTW, here is an article from a professional accounting company, which probably outweighs any of the opinions we collectively may have.

I'd also say, to another poster, that it's not always a mistake to equate our own lives to how a big-time ballplayer must look at things, but it's not an infallible guide either. People who played HS ball think they know what a major leaguer is doing; people who travel for work think they know what a major leaguer's finances must look like, etc.  (I'm sure I'm guilty of the same error when presuming to judge the FO and their business/marketing/analytic processes, because a sports franchise is fundamentally different from most businesses, so again, I'm just saying to listen when others push back, and be prepared to learn something.)

[Musk21]

6 minutes ago, Drewseph42 said:

I honestly can’t see how Correa is the one who wanted to pull out of this somehow because of the competitive situation of the Giants. Other than Carlos Rodon not re-signing with them, what changed between when he agreed to terms and late last night? It’s not like the Giants medical staff wouldn’t have had a chance to review his prior medical records before putting out their ultimate offer.  The Giants got cold feet and wanted to change those previously agreed upon terms. 
 

It’s a weird situation, but I think it was ownership not wanting to pay Correa as much because of whatever came out of the physical and tried to low ball Correa/Boras. 
 

Something that I’d be curious about is if Boras called up the Twins (and any other teams that had been serious suitors) and gave them one last chance. So help me, if we didn’t get him in the end because Falvey/Levine had Do Not Disturb turned on….

According to this article (https://theathletic.com/4024212/2022/12/21/agent-boras-explains-correa-giants-mets/) from Ken Rosenthal, Boras indicated that they had given the Giants a time frame to execute the deal and could wait no longer.

[snyder]

 

5 hours ago, big dog said:

It's clear he preferred the Mets to the Twins for some collection of reasons, but getting more money to pass on to his great-great-grandchildren probably wasn't it. The tax situation is really complicated, but I think when you add in the NYC local income tax, the much higher property taxes (assuming he buys a place), and other costs of living, the Twins offer was at least very competitive in terms of net dollars. He also could have continued to play shortstop. That wasn't enough.

Playing with Lindor and other big stars, chance to take a big-stage team where it hasn't been in a long time, an ego that only cared about the average gross salary and not the net, who cares, I am long past time to move on.

I really wonder what the issue in the physical was, and what the Mets are prepared to do about it.

I'm going to cheer for good performances from Twins players, and just give up on any realistic chance of competing. MLB risks becoming like the NBA, with a few teams grabbing superstars who want to play together and can somehow all be paid. But without a salary cap that's going to get incredibly ugly. I can't control what "my" team spends, I'm not going to get angry about it. Life's too short to be controlled by what various rich people do with their toys, which make them billions of dollars in taxpayer-subsidized Sports Cathedrals. Screw it.

 

100% agree. Once you get to the hundreds of millions of dollars, those elite players aren't looking at net dollars after taxes. It's all about bragging rights that they are a 300+ million dollar player, The Twins couldn't or wouldn't pull that trigger and they never had a shot. Even if they said 295 million, it wasn't 300 million. 

[roger]

37 minutes ago, ashbury said:

So how is that different to his bottom line than the shorthand terminology everyone else is using, that he pays tax in each state he plays? His accountant will have to fart around with a dozen or so state filings, but the net-net is that he'll pay less than the NY rate even when he signs with a NY team.

BTW, here is an article from a professional accounting company, which probably outweighs any of the opinions we collectively may have.

I'd also say, to another poster, that it's not always a mistake to equate our own lives to how a big-time ballplayer must look at things, but it's not an infallible guide either. People who played HS ball think they know what a major leaguer is doing; people who travel for work think they know what a major leaguer's finances must look like, etc.  (I'm sure I'm guilty of the same error when presuming to judge the FO and their business/marketing/analytic processes, because a sports franchise is fundamentally different from most businesses, so again, I'm just saying to listen when others push back, and be prepared to learn something.)

The article confirms what I said.  Maybe I can say it more clearly.  Each player files a Non-Resident return in each State he plays in, paying that State’s tax on the income he earns in that State.  He then files in the State of the team he plays for.  He pays that State’s tax rate on 100% of his annual salary.  He then deducts from the amount he owes as a credit the dollars paid to other States. 
 

So when a Twin plays 3 games in Florida, he pays taxes on it to Minnesota in full, as Florida has no income tax, ie, he doesn’t get a credit.

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, roger said:

The article confirms what I said.  Maybe I can say it more clearly.  Each player files a Non-Resident return in each State he plays in, paying that State’s tax on the income he earns in that State.  He then files in the State of the team he plays for.  He pays that State’s tax rate on 100% of his annual salary.  He then deducts from the amount he owes as a credit the dollars paid to other States. 
 

So when a Twin plays 3 games in Florida, he pays taxes on it to Minnesota in full, as Florida has no income tax, ie, he doesn’t get a credit.

Maybe I'm reading that article wrong, and understanding the information I've gotten wrong, but it's actually the opposite of your Florida example. A Marlin who plays 3 games in Minnesota won't get a credit for the taxes they had to pay to MN since Florida has no income tax. So had those 3 games been played in Florida, the player pays no taxes. Since they're played in MN the player pays no taxes to FL, but does pay taxes to MN, and gets no credit because he only paid tax on the money once. Thus he makes less than he would've if the system was based solely around the tax rate of his team's state.

Edited: Well it's not the opposite, but it goes both ways. That's the better way to say it. But at the end of the day it's still not simply NY taxes vs MN taxes.

[roger]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Maybe I'm reading that article wrong, and understanding the information I've gotten wrong, but it's actually the opposite of your Florida example. A Marlin who plays 3 games in Minnesota won't get a credit for the taxes they had to pay to MN since Florida has no income tax. So had those 3 games been played in Florida, the player pays no taxes. Since they're played in MN the player pays no taxes to FL, but does pay taxes to MN, and gets no credit because he only paid tax on the money once. Thus he makes less than he would've if the system was based solely around the tax rate of his team's state.

That’s correct.  I was also correct as a player from Minnesota pays Minnesota tax and doesn’t get a credit from Florida, like he would from say Wisconsin.

[chpettit19]

Just now, roger said:

That’s correct.  I was also correct as a player from Minnesota pays Minnesota tax and doesn’t get a credit from Florida, like he would from say Wisconsin.

Correct. My whole point, though, was just that it's not as simple as saying "the contracts aren't that different because of NY taxes vs MN taxes." It's far more complicated than that.

[ashbury]

22 minutes ago, roger said:

The article confirms what I said.  Maybe I can say it more clearly.  Each player files a Non-Resident return in each State he plays in, paying that State’s tax on the income he earns in that State.  He then files in the State of the team he plays for.  He pays that State’s tax rate on 100% of his annual salary.  He then deducts from the amount he owes as a credit the dollars paid to other States. 
 

So when a Twin plays 3 games in Florida, he pays taxes on it to Minnesota in full, as Florida has no income tax, ie, he doesn’t get a credit.

I read the article too. It's a third-order effect.

Someone posted with a straight difference of MN versus NYC tax rates to the whole contract, then someone else responded with the second-order observation that taxes are paid where the work is performed, and then you seemed to contradict that with your statement. The basic observation that the tax bite is less than it seems still stands, quibbles aside.

[h2oface]

I call for a recount! Carlos Correa made it absolutely clear that he LOVES playing here, and he adores his teammates here, and wants to play here. There was no question about it. He said it over and over and over. And over and over. I think it is time for the Twins FO to file some lawsuits to correct all this poppycock!

Looks like a lot of posters aren't tax experts or CPAs or tax attorneys, nor an IRS official, but they must have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[h2oface]

12 hours ago, Chachi said:

The Mets are an entire Twins payroll over the luxury threshold?

Some owners with billions of dollars like to have fun owning an MLB team, because in the end, a person only needs so much money to live, and the rest is to be generous and have fun with, and give the fans a great team to come and enjoy. Too many wealthy owners never evole past the $ trap. Good for Cohen!

[Linus]

It’s not about taxes!  He can make an absolute killing in endorsements in nyc. Tax rates are non factor in the overall equation. 

[Steve75]

  14 hours ago, Fighting4par said:

why would we ever want this guy. He is an injured cheater who is out here to only make as much money as he possibly can and then play mediocre baseball. I have no clue why everyone is so in love with him. I applaud the giants for seeing that.

 

 Correa is a nice shortstop, steady as they come but is no superstar.  Wasn't worth even half of what they paid him last year.  He will be an above average 3B man but wouldn't crack the top tier of that group either but will be paid like one ( a slightly better version of Donaldson, perhaps).  IMO he looked pretty feeble as a Twin last year, superstars don't strike out 120+ a year as he did last year, and usually at inopportune times. (That's only 40 less than our Joey Gallo!) I think we dodged a major bullet financially.  

Pick up that Mets SS, sign Fulmer, Hand or Rogers and a good RH bat ( I wish we still had Urshela) and if we can start to play sound, fundamental ball (bunting, stealing bases, better situational hitting) with some hungry, scrappy young players we could have a team that might be exciting to watch.  Which the Cleveland Guardians seem to be.

 

 

[Minny505]

On 12/21/2022 at 9:25 AM, nicksaviking said:

I think if you have to platoon your SS, you're probably not a very good baseball team. And if you're not a very good baseball team, you probably shouldn't be making TWO trades for shortstops that aren't good enough to start on their own.

I don't understand this argument. Plenty of championship teams platoon a position on the field, including the 2022 World Series Winning Astros.

The Twins are not likely to be a very good baseball team in 2023, but that they would have a platoon at SS is not at all a reason why.