Again? The Twins Lose Carlos Correa to the Mets.

[farmerguychris]

1 hour ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Baseball is broken. This is a horrible signing for the future of the league - particularly if the Mets, or any other of the dwindling number of franchises that can compete in this “arms race”, wins the Pennant or WS.

This portends even greater loss of interest in professional baseball outside of a few major franchises. For the current and future fans of most of the MLB’s teams, there is very little reason to commit the time and money over years and years to a futile dream. Better just wait to jump on the bandwagon for that one season, if it ever comes, when lightning strikes and the team truly competes.

As I have said in many of my posts, I am a “super fan” watching over 150 Twins games each year. Not this year. I have really no interest in prioritising my summer days and nights to watch our current team in this current MLB environment. My love of the game only goes so far.  Assuming I reup for the MLB package this season, maybe I’ll tune in more often later in the season when our prospects show up.

This is how this super fan feels. It’s not just the CC signing. It’s the direction of MLB and the direction of the Twins within that dynamic. Imagine how the less committed fans will feel over time. For many franchises, the Twins most certainly included, baseball fandom will become primarily a bandwagon phenomenon. 

Agreed - this is simply bad for baseball.  A hard cap needs to be put in place asap or there will only be 6 fan bases that have anything to look forward to.

I used to cheer for the Mets when compared to the Yankees and how they've treated the Twins in my lifetime.  Now I can only hope all big market teams lose and lose big every year until the system is fixed.

[I wish the twins were good]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

Boy was I wrong.  I thought the Giants would keep Correa for sure.  Can't believe the Mets got it done essentially paying 52M per year for Correa. That is going to be one tough team I can see why Correa wanted to go there.  The Mets will need to keep those arms healthy and they have some older arms but if they do they look World Series bound to me.

For all the money they spent this offseason, they aren't DRASTICALLY improved from last year I wouldn't say. And they WERE very good last year, but not good enough to get out of the first round of the playoffs. Re-signed a few of their own guys, Verlander replacing Degrom essentially. At his age that could go t*ts up at any time. They added a couple relievers, Added an unknown quantity in Senga but lost Bassitt and Walker. Added an average-ish catcher in Narvaez. Correa is the big addition, but if he has health or performance issues, I could see the rest of it being a wash, or even a little worse. For a team that just took on about 800MM in new obligations, I'd want to be a whole lot more certain that the needle got moved substantially. 

[Minny505]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

When the Mets were rumored to be in on Correa, I texted that they were our greatest rival. Because they had the money & they had best chance of advancing to the WS. After SF signed Correa, I admitted that I was wrong.

I know that they have Lindor, the other teams that bid on "the top 4" had pretty good SSs (except MN) but they still went out to try to nab one. NYM will do anything to buy a WS.

Now is the perfect opportunity to trade for Luis Guillorme NYM) as our main SS. Platooned with Farmer they could be an awesome duo, plus adding immensely to our INF quality lacking  depth. NYM should be motivated to move him especially because this news, He should come very cheap. 

Guillorme is a SS profiled utility player. A slick glove, strong arm with good instincts. He's a Arraez type hitter that when given the chance to bat regularly, he can put up some pretty good  offensive #s. There is no doubt in my mind if given the opportunity to play at SS on a regular basis he can shine. This could be our best move of the offseason. FO jump on this one!!!!!

 

I came here to say the same thing. This is actually a great development for the Twins in getting a quality big league SS.

 

1 hour ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Whom would you move - someone in whom the Mets might realistically have an interest - to effect this trade for this budding utility infielder?

They could use an OFer, specifically a LHB. That role on the Mets will get twice the playing time a 5th IF will. Offer up Larnach or Kepler to get Guillorme, Ruf (for some right handed 1B power), and a High-A lottery ticket. 

More realistically a fungible RP should be enough. Offer up Canterino, Winder, Megill, or Sands, if a one-for-one swap is what the team is looking for. 

Guillorme and Farmer project for a 2+ WAR SS platoon for $7mil. That's a great deal. 

[Bradfoot]

The mega deal makes more sense to me for the Mets.  The Giants don't seem to be ready to capitalize on the first few years of this deal like the Mets are.  At the same time, I wonder what the Mets will look like in 5 years when all these expensive players are hitting their mid 30's.  The Mets will probably be able to stomach all these deals even if/when the players have fallen off but it certainly seems like they are all-in now and will deal with the consequences later.

 

Sounds like the Giants got cold feet and were looking for an out.

Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle tweets, the “Giants flagged something in [Correa’s] physical and doctors disagreed.”

[spanman2]

2 hours ago, Chachi said:

The Mets are an entire Twins payroll over the luxury threshold?

Wow

[Nashvilletwin]

5 minutes ago, hitterscount said:

We are more than a quality SS away from being competitive. Just a bad look for our genius's running the team hoping that most fans are naïve enough to believe that they are trying to field a quality team. 

I despise the big market teams that attempt to buy a championship and love watching the likes of the Dodgers, Yankees , Mets choke annually. There is no doubt smaller market teams are at a disadvantage, but well run organizations can compete... unfortunately it's not the Twins. Look no further than St. Louis similar size city and market and they have fielded competitive teams for the most part for the last 30 years. But that takes competent long and short term planning and a commitment from the owners. Not happening here.   

You are absolutely correct. A small/mid-market team can compete if they are well run and do certain things very well. These things include:

1. Developing players through the system and continuing that development once the players make the majors.

2. Play sound fundamental baseball in all aspects - which “steals” a handful of net wins per year.

3. Have a manager and coaching staff that is both tactically above average (again, resulting in a handful of net wins per season) and works well with younger players.

4. When a key trade or FA is required, have a front office that is savvy enough to “win” more often than “loses”. The FO must additionally be able to put together and stick to a cogent long-term strategic plan, while avoiding the dogmatism to make necessary occasional pivots.

5. Have an ownership willing to step up when the opportunity presents itself and has the courage to make the tough, difficult decisions when needed.

This is essentially how smaller market teams can create some sort of competitive advantage in a no salary cap environment.  Some teams do this better and more consistently than others.

How would you rate the Twins organization, particularly recently?

 

[Battle ur tail off]

12 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Actually, they'll be getting an above average 3B. They're going to pay $50M this season to upgrade from Eduardo Escobar to Correa at 3B, That's only a 3-4 win upgrade. They're turning the best SS in baseball into the 5th best 3B.

My point with my post is that Paddack is a dime a dozen and isn't even worth a half day of worrying about for them while Correa is one of the top players in MLB and will have an effect on your team if you sign them. 

Having Paddack on your team makes about as much difference as the mascot they run out there to run around before games. 

[Dave Lemke]

Baseball, especially the Twins, has always been my favorite sport. I was born here the same month the Twins started playing here! My question is if we should just contract about 20 teams. There is no way a small market team can compete year after year. Things seem to have gotten totally out of control. I am close to giving up hope on baseball as a whole. Large market teams have the commissioner in there pocket and the big money players seem to only care about how much they get and control the players association. How many years are left with serious change?

[I wish the twins were good]

57 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Rec this.

Don’t worry - this strategy will in all likelihood be implemented come early June.  The FO will do the best they can to see what the team with Mahle, Gray and Maeda can produce. Fair enough. If, or when, it becomes clear that won’t be successful - along with a healed Lewis and more seasoning for Lee, Julien, Martin, SWR, Varland, etc. - the rebuild toward a new multi year window will begin. 

I don't really care what they do at this point. Practically speaking they are in that squishy middle ground that's close enough that they really SHOULD be trying to improve some, since another 10ish wins might be enough in this division, but they have demonstrated no desire to do that so far, and I don't even trust them to make the right moves anyway. Trading what diminished prospect capital they have at this point seems counterproductive. If they are going to sell, at least sell reasonably high. So if Gray gets them something substantial back I'd be fine with it, Mahle and Maeda should be kept for now in hopes they can recoup some value. Plus value players with three or more years of team control should all be kept, with the exception of Arraez, maybe - he's coming off a batting title and isn't making much yet. I think they could find someone that might overpay for him. It's a young team, there might be some diamonds in this group. 

[Doctor Gast]

8 minutes ago, Minny505 said:

They could use an OFer, specifically a LHB. That role on the Mets will get twice the playing time a 5th IF will. Offer up Larnach or Kepler to get Guillorme, Ruf (for some right handed 1B power), and a High-A lottery ticket. 

More realistically a fungible RP should be enough. Offer up Canterino, Winder, Megill, or Sands, if a one-for-one swap is what the team is looking for. 

Guillorme and Farmer project for a 2+ WAR SS platoon for $7mil. That's a great deal. 

Good idea Minny! As Guillorme is given more playing time, that'll increase the projected WAR 

[ashbury]

Medical science has really improved in my lifetime. It can now pinpoint that something bad will happen to someone's health 13 years from now, but he'll be okay for 12.

[wavedog]

Who needs Correa when you have Joey Gallo?  lol!   Offseason is not done yet of course but my excitement level for this season is about as low as it was in the late 90's.   Hard to envision being competitive and if everything does fall right the highest bar would be winning the weak Central and getting swept in the first round.

I have a dream scenario for the 2nd half of the 2023 season that would get me re-energized in the Twins

Lewis is at SS, Martin in OF,  Miranda rotating at 3B/DH, Arraez rotating at 1B/DH, Kirilloff at 1B/OF, Buxton is healthy, Vazquez/Jeffers healthy.  Gallo has had a great first half and we trade him to the Mets for a pitching prospect.   

We either have extended from the group Maeda/Gray/Mahle (hoping at least 2 out of the 3 stay healthy) the ones we like to keep using the funds we have not spent this offseason and traded who we don't want to sign for young starting pitching prospects.      

We teach and emphasize sound fundamental baseball play.  They had Game #7 review of the 1991 World Series this week on the MLB network and I re-watched it.    It was refreshing to watch all the little plays the Twins executed so well in that game.    

 

[Nashvilletwin]

9 minutes ago, Minny505 said:

I came here to say the same thing. This is actually a great development for the Twins in getting a quality big league SS.

 

They could use an OFer, specifically a LHB. That role on the Mets will get twice the playing time a 5th IF will. Offer up Larnach or Kepler to get Guillorme, Ruf (for some right handed 1B power), and a High-A lottery ticket. 

More realistically a fungible RP should be enough. Offer up Canterino, Winder, Megill, or Sands, if a one-for-one swap is what the team is looking for. 

Guillorme and Farmer project for a 2+ WAR SS platoon for $7mil. That's a great deal. 

There is absolutely no way I would trade anyone in our organization that has a reasonable chance to contribute to this team over the 2024-2027 time frame for any player who would a) impede the development of any of our top prospects; b) is not demonstrably a step up from what our future can provide; c) is nothing more than a temporary kick save attempt by the FO to resurrect their Mahle, Maeda and Gray strategy, or d) won’t be here for the next window.

Guillorme may be a perfectly reasonable utility infielder for a couple years. But a platoon with Farmer will not save this season, and Guillorme is not going to be part of the long-term solution. As such, any acquisition of Guillorme should not compromise our future in any way, even if it is for a “couple of lottery tickets” - lottery tickets that may actually be more valuable to us.
 

 

[tony&rodney]

2 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Guillorme may be a perfectly reasonable utility infielder for a couple years. But a platoon with Farmer will not save this season, and Guillorme is not going to be part of the long-term solution. As such, any acquisition of Guillorme should not compromise our future in any way,

Agree but might be amenable to trading Randy Dobnak for Guillorme or Trevor Megill for Baty.

[Seth Stohs]

My Waking Up to this News initial thoughts: 

- My first reaction yesterday was that the Giants looked bad, issuing the postponement but not providing much else. Of course, they really can't say anything about the physical, and this is a great example for why teams don't like when news breaks of a player agreeing to terms (PENDING PHYSICAL)... in most cases, failure of a physical would stay quiet, private. 

- But with this news of him heading to New York within about 5-6 hours of the Giants news, it now looks more like Correa wanted out of the Giants deal. He wants to play for a winning team. he looks at the Mets roster, the incredible starting pitching, adding bullpen arms, and the lineup, along with teaming with long-time friend Francisco Lindor and wanted to be there. Oh, and that Cohen guy is just going to keep spending. In this case, I think Correa is the one that kind of looks bad. If that's the case, he just shouldn't have committed to the Giants. However, he hadn't signed yet. 

Just a really weird situation. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

This whole Correa matter is bizarre and becoming weirder by the day. Boras and Correa, SF and the Mets and the Twins are just playing a different game with rules which are not clear to me, amid swirling speculation and assumptions based on something called sabermetrics, which conflict with my old time gut feelings based on high school baseball experiences from the 1960's. I feel that there are deceptions and half truths mixed in also. So I have decided to take some time off. I will dance with the girl who goes to the spring dance with me and I will leave with her at the end of the dance in October.  This is taking too much of my time and energy. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

1 minute ago, Seth Stohs said:

My Waking Up to this News initial thoughts: 

- My first reaction yesterday was that the Giants looked bad, issuing the postponement but not providing much else. Of course, they really can't say anything about the physical, and this is a great example for why teams don't like when news breaks of a player agreeing to terms (PENDING PHYSICAL)... in most cases, failure of a physical would stay quiet, private. 

- But with this news of him heading to New York within about 5-6 hours of the Giants news, it now looks more like Correa wanted out of the Giants deal. He wants to play for a winning team. he looks at the Mets roster, the incredible starting pitching, adding bullpen arms, and the lineup, along with teaming with long-time friend Francisco Lindor and wanted to be there. Oh, and that Cohen guy is just going to keep spending. In this case, I think Correa is the one that kind of looks bad. If that's the case, he just shouldn't have committed to the Giants. However, he hadn't signed yet. 

Just a really weird situation. 

Seth, Thanks for this post. It makes the most sense to me. 

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, wsnydes said:

It's like deja Vu all over again!

I feel like I've seen this quote before.

[Loosey]

I have always been a proponent of "NO SALARY CAP" to protect owners because I don't care about the owners money, they are all billionaires and am happy for players to get their piece of the pie.  However, this offseason has sort of shown that if you essentially have unlimited funds you can overpay every other billionaire and just completely buck the system.  So I am now leaning toward not only a cap but a hard cap of sorts.  Even if a Cap of $300MM was set only a handful of teams would reach it, but other teams would likely spend more because the teams that cap out woudln't be able to continue to buy more players.  This in effect would probably hurt the super stars like Correa a bit and limit them from reaching those $40M figures were heading towards but would probably end up being good for baseball in the long run.

[D.C Twins]

And here I thought the most important thing was that Correa wanted to raise his family in Minnesota ?

Apparently the FO 'strategy' if selling him on 'the community' didn't work which was.... shocking!

[Loosey]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I believe that depends on the state. I filed taxes in 3 different states the last couple years and, unless my tax person is stealing my credits/just not filing correctly, I didn't get any credits for the other 2 states I filed in.

I play men's hockey with a recently retired MLB player.  I will ask him how the taxes work.  He's pretty open about sharing some of the stuff i had never known about when it comes to MLB and perks, etc.

[DJL44]

6 minutes ago, Loosey said:

Even if a Cap of $300MM was set only a handful of teams would reach it, but other teams would likely spend more because the teams that cap out woudln't be able to continue to buy more players.

Other teams would not spend more. They have no incentive to do so. A hard cap would mean player salaries are depressed and the cheapskate teams can get players cheaper.

[Vanimal46]

44 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

A) The Twins dodged a bullet bigtime here.

B) What will the fallout be if the Mets haven’t bought a championship?

A) In what way did we dodge a bullet? The Giants are chicken bleeps who got cold feet. As evidenced by 2 other teams that we know of (NYM and us) offering 10+ years. 

B) The fallout is the same for the Mets for the last 36 years. Except now they have a rouge owner that is on a rampage buying the league. Sounds like a lot of fun to be a fan of them at the moment. 

[RJA]

While I was hopeful, yet extremely skeptical from the start, of the Twins signing Correa the Giants signing made some sense. This makes no sense to me.

World Series.  It is all about being competitive.  He is now on a team that is very likely, given their talent and the owner's willingness to add talent as needed, to be a World Series contender for his whole career.  What have the Twins done to be more competitive?

[USAFChief]

Sounds like the Giants got cold feet.

 

As for the Twins, that was never happening. The Twins knew it, Correa knew it, Boras knew it.

I doubt they actually even offered the $285. 

Any small chance they were actually serious was shown to be false when they traded for Farmer. Something like that was always the plan.

 

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Minny505 said:

Guillorme and Farmer project for a 2+ WAR SS platoon for $7mil. That's a great deal. 

I think if you have to platoon your SS, you're probably not a very good baseball team. And if you're not a very good baseball team, you probably shouldn't be making TWO trades for shortstops that aren't good enough to start on their own.

[adorduan]

1 hour ago, srlarson said:

rather than a salary cap/mlb needs a minimum threshhold for teams to get a share of the Lux Tax payments.....make the lower teams spend up to a level.....to get free money!!  

Hockey does this, but they have a hard cap. i think the cap is like 83.5 million and teams have to spend around 60 million, I don't have the exact number.

[Fighting4par]

why would we ever want this guy. He is an injured cheater who is out here to only make as much money as he possibly can and then play mediocre baseball. I have no clue why everyone is so in love with him. He is a bad guy and bad baseball player who is injured. I applaud the giants for seeing that.

[Twodogs]

2 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Baseball is broken. This is a horrible signing for the future of the league - particularly if the Mets, or any other of the dwindling number of franchises that can compete in this “arms race”, wins the Pennant or WS.

This portends even greater loss of interest in professional baseball outside of a few major franchises. For the current and future fans of most of the MLB’s teams, there is very little reason to commit the time and money over years and years to a futile dream. Better just wait to jump on the bandwagon for that one season, if it ever comes, when lightning strikes and the team truly competes.

As I have said in many of my posts, I am a “super fan” watching over 150 Twins games each year. Not this year. I have really no interest in prioritising my summer days and nights to watch our current team in this current MLB environment. My love of the game only goes so far.  Assuming I reup for the MLB package this season, maybe I’ll tune in more often later in the season when our prospects show up.

This is how this super fan feels. It’s not just the CC signing. It’s the direction of MLB and the direction of the Twins within that dynamic. Imagine how the less committed fans will feel over time. For many franchises, the Twins most certainly included, baseball fandom will become primarily a bandwagon phenomenon. 

Eh, this kind of stuff has happened before, the 80's and 90's steinbrenner Yankees.  I even think the Mets have done this before, remember Bobby Bonilla?  The McCourt Dodgers, the Arte Moreno Angels have spent big money over and over again, Pujols, Hamilton, Rendon, etc, etc, etc.....  I predict the Mets will have so much pressure on them to win the WS this year that they might not even make the playoffs.  I mean good luck getting past Atlanta and the Philly.  Atlanta doesn't spend anywhere close to what the big market teams pay.  But they are always better, now they may have cheated a little a couple of years ago with foreign signings and such, but by and large they have developed their team much better than the Mets and the Mets are the Mets, most likely they won't win the WS this year.  So if you don't feel like following the Twins because you want to fish more, or you don't want to follow them because their own front office keeps screwing up the roster I'd get it.  But not watching the Twins because the Mets do something stupid, and probably something that will keep them from winning big for years to come seems overboard a little.  All I'm saying is that don't just assume the Mets are going to be good because of this.  Always remember they are still the Mets, and they will always be second fiddle in their own town.  So just relax, I know our own front office seems to always be screwing things up.  But that's independent of the Mets screwing up their own team. 

[DJL44]

6 minutes ago, Fighting4par said:

why would we ever want this guy. He is an injured cheater who is out here to only make as much money as he possibly can and then play mediocre baseball. I have no clue why everyone is so in love with him. He is a bad guy and bad baseball player who is injured. I applaud the giants for seeing that.

Those grapes are totally sour, I agree.