Greatness not in the Hall of Fame

[mikelink45]

If I were rich enough, I would put up a Hall of Almost HOFers. Bonds, Clemons, Rose, Shoeless Joe, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro - lots of stories and it would get a lot of visits. I am glad that they lost out, but they still have compelling stories. 

Who else? Tommy John comes to mind, no scandal, just an operation, and 288 victories.  Lou Whitaker?  Johann Santana?  Luis Tiant?Dick Allen, Dale Murphy, Curt Schilling?

Who would you put in?  And would you visit this museum when you went to Cooper's Town? 

[DJL44]

I help run the Hall of Merit so I have a lot of opinions about this. 

Here's a link to the website

Baseball Think Factory Hall Of Merit (krisgardner6.wixsite.com)

[RedBull34]

I mean, if you are not judgmental about the Character Clause or other such flaws you've got Pete Rose, Sammy Sosa, Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield, A-Rod, Kenny Lofton, Tim Lincecum, Dave Stieb, David Cone, Orel Hershiser, JOHAN SANTANA!!!, plus a whole host of Relief Pitchers.

Beltran is another that might get passed over.

EDIT: I didn't see you had listed Johan and Sosa already.  I'm leaving them in my list, but you already mentioned them.

[mikelink45]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

I help run the Hall of Merit so I have a lot of opinions about this. 

Here's a link to the website

Baseball Think Factory Hall Of Merit (krisgardner6.wixsite.com)

Excellent.  Thanks for the link.  I have checked on you in the past.  It is a good site.   A blend of what I proposed with the Hall itself.  Which players have you kicked out to the HOF?

[mikelink45]

1 hour ago, RedBull34 said:

I mean, if you are not judgmental about the Character Clause or other such flaws you've got Pete Rose, Sammy Sosa, Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield, A-Rod, Kenny Lofton, Tim Lincecum, Dave Stieb, David Cone, Orel Hershiser, JOHAN SANTANA!!!, plus a whole host of Relief Pitchers.

Beltran is another that might get passed over.

EDIT: I didn't see you had listed Johan and Sosa already.  I'm leaving them in my list, but you already mentioned them.

I might not go with Lincecum and I really don't like including RP, but otherwise a good list.  Maybe Viola and Pascual can join in.

 

[DJL44]

32 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

Excellent.  Thanks for the link.  I have checked on you in the past.  It is a good site.   A blend of what I proposed with the Hall itself.  Which players have you kicked out to the HOF?

Players are perpetually eligible so they could get elected in future elections. Here is the list of players who are in the Hall of Fame but not the Hall of Merit.

Bottomley, Jim

Cepeda, Orlando

Chance, Frank

Hodges, Gil

Kelly, George

McGriff, Fred

Perez, Tony

Taylor, Ben

Evers, Johnny

Lazzeri, Tony

Mazeroski, Bill

Schoendienst, Red

Dandridge, Ray

Johnson, Judy

Kell, George

Lindstrom, Freddy

Traynor, Pie

Ferrell, Rick

Lombardi, Ernie

Schalk, Ray

Combs, Earle

Duffy, Hugh

Puckett, Kirby

Waner, Lloyd

Wilson, Hack

Baines, Harold

White, Sol

Brock, Lou

Hafey, Chick

Manush, Heinie

Bender, Chief

Chesbro, Jack

Cooper, Andy

Day, Leon

Dean, Dizzy

Gomez, Lefty

Grimes, Burleigh

Haines, Jesse

Hoffman, Trevor

Hoyt, Waite

Hunter, Catfish

Joss, Addie

Kaat, Jim

Marquard, Rube

Morris, Jack

Pennock, Herb

Smith, Hilton

Smith, Lee

Sutter, Bruce

Welch, Mickey

Willis, Vic

Cuyler, Kiki

Hooper, Harry

Klein, Chuck

McCarthy, Tommy

Oliva, Tony

Rice, Jim

Rice, Sam

Youngs, Ross

Aparicio, Luis

Bancroft, Dave

Jackson, Travis

Maranville, Rabbit

Rizzuto, Phil

Tinker, Joe

[DJL44]

Here's the list of players in the Hall of Merit but not in the Hall of Fame

Allen, Dick

Clark, Will

Hernandez, Keith

McGwire, Mark

Palmeiro, Rafael

Start, Joe

Stovey, Harry

Barnes, Ross

Childs, Cupid

Grich, Bobby

Randolph, Willie

Whitaker, Lou

Richardson, Hardy

Boyer, Ken

Evans, Darrell

Groh, Heinie

Hack, Stan

Nettles, Graig

Sutton, Ezra

Beckwith, John

Bennett, Charlie

Freehan, Bill

Trouppe, Quincy

Edmonds, Jim

Gore, George

Hines, Paul

Oms, Alejandro

Pike, Lip

Wynn, Jimmy

McVey, Cal

Bonds, Barry

Jackson, Joe

Jones, Charley

Keller, Charlie

Magee, Sherry

Ramirez, Manny

Sheckard, Jimmy

Brown, Kevin

Caruthers, Bob

Clemens, Roger

Cone, David

Ferrell, Wes

Pierce, Billy

Reuschel, Rick

Saberhagen, Bret

Schilling, Curt

Stieb, Dave

Browning, Pete

Evans, Dwight

Sheffield, Gary

Smith, Reggie

Dahlen, Bill

Glasscock, Jack

Lundy, Dick

Moore, Dobie

Pearce, Dickey

Rose, Pete

Rolen, Scott

Redding, Dick

Tiant, Luis

Jones, Andruw

Helton, Todd

Lofton, Kenny

Santana, Johan

Kent, Jeff

Sosa, Sammy

Pettitte, Andy

Abreu, Bobby

Rodriguez, Alex

[mikelink45]

3 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Players are perpetually eligible so they could get elected in future elections. Here is the list of players who are in the Hall of Fame but not the Hall of Merit.

Bottomley, Jim

Cepeda, Orlando

Chance, Frank

Hodges, Gil

Kelly, George

McGriff, Fred

Perez, Tony

Taylor, Ben

Evers, Johnny

Lazzeri, Tony

Mazeroski, Bill

Schoendienst, Red

Dandridge, Ray

Johnson, Judy

Kell, George

Lindstrom, Freddy

Traynor, Pie

Ferrell, Rick

Lombardi, Ernie

Schalk, Ray

Combs, Earle

Duffy, Hugh

Puckett, Kirby

Waner, Lloyd

Wilson, Hack

Baines, Harold

White, Sol

Brock, Lou

Hafey, Chick

Manush, Heinie

Bender, Chief

Chesbro, Jack

Cooper, Andy

Day, Leon

Dean, Dizzy

Gomez, Lefty

Grimes, Burleigh

Haines, Jesse

Hoffman, Trevor

Hoyt, Waite

Hunter, Catfish

Joss, Addie

Kaat, Jim

Marquard, Rube

Morris, Jack

Pennock, Herb

Smith, Hilton

Smith, Lee

Sutter, Bruce

Welch, Mickey

Willis, Vic

Cuyler, Kiki

Hooper, Harry

Klein, Chuck

McCarthy, Tommy

Oliva, Tony

Rice, Jim

Rice, Sam

Youngs, Ross

Aparicio, Luis

Bancroft, Dave

Jackson, Travis

Maranville, Rabbit

Rizzuto, Phil

Tinker, Joe

That is quite a list.  Some I would definitely select, but others no - I have always wished they could have a vote to cleanup the inductees.  Some were just political votes based on membership.  But there are many here I expect you to add - some of which I prefer over some that were put in.
 

Thanks for sharing this. 

[DJL44]

1 minute ago, mikelink45 said:

That is quite a list.  Some I would definitely select, but others no

On that list the players who get enough votes to be considered serious candidates are David Ortiz, Ben Taylor, Vic Willis, and Phil Rizzuto. Nobody else is likely to get elected any time soon.

Top 12 unelected players in the last election: Lance Berkman, Buddy Bell, Thurman Munson, Sal Bando, Bobby Bonds, David Ortiz, Ben Taylor, Vic Willis, Bob Johnson, Tommy John, Wally Schang and Tim Hudson. We'll elect 3 more players this year. Carlos Beltran is a lock, then one of those top finishers from last year.

[mikelink45]

5 hours ago, DJL44 said:

On that list the players who get enough votes to be considered serious candidates are David Ortiz, Ben Taylor, Vic Willis, and Phil Rizzuto. Nobody else is likely to get elected any time soon.

Top 12 unelected players in the last election: Lance Berkman, Buddy Bell, Thurman Munson, Sal Bando, Bobby Bonds, David Ortiz, Ben Taylor, Vic Willis, Bob Johnson, Tommy John, Wally Schang and Tim Hudson. We'll elect 3 more players this year. Carlos Beltran is a lock, then one of those top finishers from last year.

Interesting - I like Buddy Bell, David Ortiz and Phil Rizzuto. 

[dxpavelka]

Donnie Baseball

[Trov]

Baseball has always prided themselves on their HOF on being so exclusive.  Unlike other sports that tend to have many players each year, I think football has like 5 or 6 and basketball always have a few.  Where baseball will have years no one gets in.  The way they get in is by vote of baseball writers.  They get all people on the ballot and can vote at most for 10, but do not need to vote for 1.  What I find crazy is when some of the guys that are on the boarder, but miss out, and then some voters will give a vote to guys that have no reason getting a vote.  

Some voters put too much into character clause, but yet Ty Cobb is still in, but Curt Schilling gets dinged because of his politics.  Some guys who retired due to injury, Puckett and Koufax, get benefit of doubt they would have put up normal HOF numbers, but guys like Santana who tried to play through injuries and had poor end of career get dinged.  Really, if you compare Santana and Koufax their numbers very similar. Santana has higher career WAR in less games pitched. The difference is Koufax retired at peak 5 year stretch, Santana tried to come back from injury and looked bad his last year.  

I have huge issues with HOF for things like this.  Had Santana retired after his age 31 season would he have got benefit like Koufax did?  If Koufax, who was best pitcher for 5 years, similar to Santana who was one of best for 5 or 6 seasons, had pitched beyond his injury trying to come  back, does he miss HOF? Puckett gets in to HOF because he was one of best of his time, had to retire due to health.  Mauer, who has put up very similar numbers, if not better than Puckett, and at catcher most of his career, should be a shoe in for HOF, but he had several years by end of career that people will look at and go against him.  It was mostly health related issues, but voters will not care. 

[Brandon]

Orel Hershiser and Kirk Gibson.  Hershiser outhit the bash brothers (Canseco and McGuire) combined in the 88 World Series plus he was a great pitcher on crappy offense teams.  Kirk Gibsons HR while injured was fun too.  And the hit a lot of HRs and stole a lot of bases too. 
 

Nick Punto.  We need to create a hall of fame category for utility players and we start by adding Punto.  
 

Pierzinski, 2000 hits as a C is noteworthy.

Carlos Beltran cause he is keeping Tori’s Hunter out of the Hall of Fame cause he was a better hitter and probably fielder as well.

Bobby Abreau almost 2500 hits over 900 XBH and 400 on the dot SB.  
 

Jeff Reardon

Torii Hunter if he played 2 more seasons to help his counting stats with 700-800 more plate appearances. He could have made it to 1525 RBI and no one who isn’t associated with steroids isn’t in at that point.

we should put together a list or do a vote within the community with everyone’s suggestion to create our almost Hall of Fame.  The Twins Daily almost Hall of Fame.  This would also be a great way to drive traffic to the site…..

 

[bap3141]

It's criminal that the "Crime Dog" was not voted in by the BBWAA in all his years on the ballot and had to wait until the New Era committee (including many of his peers) voted him in (in his first year).

 

He should have been in long ago.

 

To me, it's nothing more than a museum. 

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

I'd like to see players get into the HOF based on baseball statistics only.  Come up with pitching and hitting metrics that all can agree on and use them exclusively.  If a player had a small number of great years (sorry Puck or Tony O), or many mediocre years (sorry Kitty), then they do not deserve to be in the HOF.  That may also rule out those who had a lot of championships who just happened to be on good teams but their individual stats did not show they deserved to be in.

Maybe for those folks, create a separate wing to identify lengthy good careers or a small number of great years.

For those with character issues, put an asterisk on the bottom of their plaque to identify steroids, cheating (e.g. Rose), etc. so people can see that and make their own judgements.

[bap3141]

Take the voting out of the media's hands entirely. Those knuckle-draggers couldn't be impartial if their life depended on it.

I don't need them playing the moral police card and I'm over this garbage of voting for a player that doesn't deserve enshrinement at the expense of another just to keep him on the ballot. Or those writers that abuse the responsibility by voting for some slightly above average local player or don't vote at all out of some shameful protest.

Also limiting the number people can vote for creates scenarios like the one above and is just silly.

 

As for keeping Puckett out. That's odd. The man was an elite level superstar that packed a whallop of a resume into a 12 year career. He was forced from the game at peak powers and met the minimum criteria for eligibility. Just a silly ommission

 

Bill James and others have written often about analyzing a player's length of peak performance rather than compilers. I have no problem with guys like Craig Biggio and guys like Puckett or Koufax making the Hall. 

I do have a problem with lowering the bar to pave the way for others (i.e. Harold Baines for Edgar Martinez, who didn't need to have the bar lowered or Bruce Sutter for Lee Smith, who probably did need the bar lowered).

 

 

[Rosterman]

What if we had to subtract a player for every one player added!?!

[solomon1930]

On 12/27/2022 at 7:06 PM, Rosterman said:

What if we had to subtract a player for every one player added!?!

I'd say subtract one for every 2 added.

[sweetmusicviola16]

1970 Twin, Luis Tiant

Tiant was at the very top from 64 thru 76, penalized for playing for Cleveland Guardians teams. He also stayed playing too long as he was ineffective by the end of his career.

Bill Freehan would be in if I could vote him in. If Mauer is an HOFer, so was Freehan. 11 all stars as a Catcher? C'mon.

Dan Quisenberry. Can't believe he was never voted in.

[Twodogs]

If I were rich enough, and had a lot of free time.  I would put up the sports writers Hall of Fame.  They would be voted in by former major league players.  I would put in a clause that only the sports writers with mostly clean backgrounds can get elected.  They would need to get 75% of all of the former players to vote for them and they would only get a limited amount of time to be on the ballot.

[DJL44]

On 12/30/2022 at 4:36 PM, sweetmusicviola16 said:

1970 Twin, Luis Tiant

Tiant was at the very top from 64 thru 76, penalized for playing for Cleveland Guardians teams. He also stayed playing too long as he was ineffective by the end of his career.

Bill Freehan would be in if I could vote him in. If Mauer is an HOFer, so was Freehan. 11 all stars as a Catcher? C'mon.

Dan Quisenberry. Can't believe he was never voted in.

I agree on Tiant and Freehan but I think there are already too many relief pitchers in the Hall of Fame.