Are any AL Central fans happy with their team?

[chpettit19]

The Athletic just did an AL Central round table with a writer from each club. It doesn't sound like anyone is happy with their ownership, and maybe only Cleveland fans are happy with their FO/state of their current team, but even they're not thrilled. That shouldn't be too surprising based on the dumpster fire that the AL Central is, and has been, but it was nice to read that other fan bases are as upset as ours.

It was interesting to read about the rest of the division, and made me question why none of the teams seem to throw caution to the wind and just go all out. The schedule is getting more balanced so there's fewer games to beat up on division foes, but there's still a lot. A playoff birth is just sitting there waiting for the Twins or Sox, or anyone really, to take if they'd just go crazy, Padres style, and bring in a bunch of guys. It feels like every team is ok with major flaws as they go into seasons because they know the rest of the division is so majorly flawed and they don't have to do as much to win the Central as they would to win another division. Then we see all our division teams pretty routinely dispatched quickly from the playoffs as they are simply built to beat the rest of the Central.

Misery loves company, so it's nice to see the rest of the fans in the division are cranky as well, but it really just made me crankier as I read and really got the feeling that the Twins could so easily have been winning 100+ games a year for a while now if they'd just have said "f it, we're going big" for a year or 2. Then Target Field would be filled, and eyes would be on TV/computer screens, and it'd be more affordable to go big moving forward. But at least the rest of the division is full of unhappy fans as well, I guess.

[wsnydes]

How dare you provide perspective!

[wsnydes]

That's an interesting thought though.  It has been largely radio silence for the AL Central so far, so I guess this shouldn't be too surprising.  I'd be interested to see this done again as spring training opens to see if anything has changed.  Or even as the season begins.  I wonder if things would cool down as we get further away from the winter meetings and all of the big name free agents are signed.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

How dare you provide perspective!

I also provided the opportunity to complain even more by pointing out that really going for it could've been a great decision for ownership. I strive to please all!

[wsnydes]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

I also provided the opportunity to complain even more by pointing out that really going for it could've been a great decision for ownership. I strive to please all!

This is true!  But also a good point.  The division is obviously ripe for the taking (just as it was last year) and this team went backwards, at least on paper.  If there's a time to push all of your chips in, it would seemingly be now.

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

This is true!  But also a good point.  The division is obviously ripe for the taking (just as it was last year) and this team went backwards, at least on paper.  If there's a time to push all of your chips in, it would seemingly be now.

Or anytime during the Falvey administration, one could argue. Not that this is me blaming Falvey, I believe it's an ownership thing, but firing TR, hiring Falvey, and handing him a $160 million payroll from the jump could've had this team selling out season tickets with ease now, and running off 6 straight division titles. But, instead, here we are debating if signing Gallo was the worst move ever, or simply an uninspiring one. Yikes.

[Mike Sixel]

Travis is a great follow if you want to see more on the business of the game. Later in this thread, he points out that high spending teams are spending 4.9 dollars per dollar the rest of the league spends  that's nearly twice what it was not that long ago. 

 

 

[wsnydes]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

Or anytime during the Falvey administration, one could argue. Not that this is me blaming Falvey, I believe it's an ownership thing, but firing TR, hiring Falvey, and handing him a $160 million payroll from the jump could've had this team selling out season tickets with ease now, and running off 6 straight division titles. But, instead, here we are debating if signing Gallo was the worst move ever, or simply an uninspiring one. Yikes.

Agreed.  There's definitely some "gotta spend money to make some money" aspects to this.  

[wsnydes]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

Travis is a great follow if you want to see more on the business of the game. Later in this thread, he points out that high spending teams are spending 4.9 dollars per dollar the rest of the league spends  that's nearly twice what it was not that long ago. 

 

 

That's crazy.  Absolutely crazy!  

Good info, Mike!

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

Or anytime during the Falvey administration, one could argue. Not that this is me blaming Falvey, I believe it's an ownership thing, but firing TR, hiring Falvey, and handing him a $160 million payroll from the jump could've had this team selling out season tickets with ease now, and running off 6 straight division titles. But, instead, here we are debating if signing Gallo was the worst move ever, or simply an uninspiring one. Yikes.

If every GM you hire spends the same way, it's likely above the GM. The only difference so far is this FO it's willing to deal prospects. But spending is not all that different.

[Vanimal46]

I would venture to guess the same conclusion can be made for fans of NL Central teams. The 12 Pirates fans hate their owner, Cincinnati Reds have a mix of overpaid veterans and prospects, Chicago Cubs have an owner that acts like they’re a mid market team, St. Louis tries at least, and the Brewers are on a typical mid market team cycle. 

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I would venture to guess the same conclusion can be made for fans of NL Central teams. The 12 Pirates fans hate their owner, Cincinnati Reds have a mix of overpaid veterans and prospects, Chicago Cubs have an owner that acts like they’re a mid market team, St. Louis tries at least, and the Brewers are on a typical mid market team cycle. 

I saw something the other day where the Reds owner (or maybe just a top FO guy) called out their fans much the same way St Peter did with Twins fans. Not a good look. I'd much rather have the Twins be the Cardinals. But the rest of these Central teams are just not impressive. Both divisions feel like they could be had by an owner who came in and went Cohen on the bit for just a couple seasons. Fandom would explode, and revenue with it.

[Craig Arko]

Follow the sea level rise and see who gets the last laugh.

[Riverbrian]

Head over to Guardians Daily, White Sox Daily, Royals Daily, Tigers Daily.

Don't stop there go over to Cubs Daily, Red Sox Daily, Yankees Daily, Rays Daily... all MLB Daily's. 

Don't Stop There go over to Crimson Tide Daily, Read what the fans are saying... it's the same ****. 

In case nobody want's to do this for perspective. I have and I'll paraphrase what they are saying: Their owners are cheap, the front office should be fired, the manager or head coach is an idiot and the backup QB should be starting. Everybody makes incredible passionate arguments that almost sound convincing and there are plenty standing behind them with the thumbs up.

I wish I could say I'm exaggerating but I'm not and once you step out of the Twins world and look around like this, you come to the obvious conclusion. WHAT'S THE POINT. You are just part of a really large club that can't be satisfied unless they never lose. Even winning a lot isn't good enough. 

As for the why don't they just spend and go for it like the Padres. 

The White Sox have done that. They were 7th in payroll in 2022. The Fans are still pissed. 

Insatiable. 

 

 

[tony&rodney]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Head over to Guardians Daily,

I didn't find a GuardiansDaily but did read a number of articles on a couple of Cleveland blogs. Their fans are rightfully pumped for the 2023 season. Cleveland is a football town and faces some economic challenges not seen in Minneapolis but the Guardians franchise, to paraphrase one article, "is in as good a shape as any organization in baseball'. 

The fact that TwinsDaily draws any readership is proof enough that there are many folks who support Twins baseball. In fact there are a ton of posters who are huge fans of the Twins prospects and younger players. We read about this every day.

It is true that there is frustration that the Twins struggle to add key pieces, but this is not entirely unwarranted. The failure to complete a deal for Correa and the subsequent signing of Joey Gallo caused a brief torrent of unhappiness but today there was a post suggesting that people own their bad ideas. You seem pretty off concerning the usual back and forth on TD which may be your own frustration with the Twins. I don't have any idea but relaxation is the key.

I didn't check any other sites tonight but generally look at different team fan sites, similar to TD, to see what trades or ideas their posters have for their teams. Most of the articles and discussions are normal.

[Riverbrian]

8 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

You seem pretty off concerning the usual back and forth on TD which may be your own frustration with the Twins. I don't have any idea but relaxation is the key.

 

I tried that ****ing yoga but my ****ing body wouldn't bend that ****ing way. 

I tried meditation. Sat on the floor closed my eyes and made that ohm sound for about 30 minutes. Opened my eyes and I was surrounded by cows. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

The fact all ALC teams' fans are annoyed speaks to the aspect of this offseason where roughly eight teams "won" and 22 teams "lost". Almost all the significant free agents went to a handful of teams while everybody else got nothing, or close to it.

[Battle ur tail off]

23 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

I would venture to guess the same conclusion can be made for fans of NL Central teams. The 12 Pirates fans hate their owner, Cincinnati Reds have a mix of overpaid veterans and prospects, Chicago Cubs have an owner that acts like they’re a mid market team, St. Louis tries at least, and the Brewers are on a typical mid market team cycle. 

We are all flyover country. And this is what we get in an unbalanced league that is getting worse as we go. 

                                                                                                                                                               ?

On 12/19/2022 at 10:35 AM, Mike Sixel said:

Later in this thread, he points out that high spending teams are spending 4.9 dollars per dollar the rest of the league spends  that's nearly twice what it was not that long ago. 

 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The fact all ALC teams' fans are annoyed

Do you think that the fans of the Cleveland Guardians are annoyed? KC, DET, CHI, and MIN - yes. I believe that Cleveland fans are stoked for next season. The talent, youth, prospects, and depth at each position is pretty impressive. If their pitchers can avoid a catastrophic hit landing multiple guys on the IL it may be another resounding AL Central flag for Cleveland.

[IndianaTwin]

7 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I tried that ****ing yoga but my ****ing body wouldn't bend that ****ing way. 

I tried meditation. Sat on the floor closed my eyes and made that ohm sound for about 30 minutes. Opened my eyes and I was surrounded by cows. 

Maybe you were saying "moo" rather than "ohm"?

As to your body not bending, my thoughts are that if God wanted us to be able to touch our toes, God would have put them on our knees.

[IndianaTwin]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:35 AM, Mike Sixel said:

Travis is a great follow if you want to see more on the business of the game. Later in this thread, he points out that high spending teams are spending 4.9 dollars per dollar the rest of the league spends  that's nearly twice what it was not that long ago. 

 

 

Though the average FA deal won't end up anywhere near 2.94 years. There will be very few new 3-year deals signed this winter. Most will be one year with a few twos.  

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

Do you think that the fans of the Cleveland Guardians are annoyed? KC, DET, CHI, and MIN - yes. I believe that Cleveland fans are stoked for next season. The talent, youth, prospects, and depth at each position is pretty impressive. If their pitchers can avoid a catastrophic hit landing multiple guys on the IL it may be another resounding AL Central flag for Cleveland.

I think the Cleveland fans are the most positive at this point, but they haven't won a World Series in like 74 years and just spent the last few years cutting payroll to the bare minimum. I think they're plenty annoyed.

[tony&rodney]

9 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I think the Cleveland fans are the most positive at this point, but they haven't won a World Series in like 74 years and just spent the last few years cutting payroll to the bare minimum. I think they're plenty annoyed.

Yes, 1948 was a few years ago; makes sense. They do have one of the most exciting, young, and talented teams in baseball though and a top five farm system loaded and ready to deliver with next person up pretty much across the board. 

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Yes, 1948 was a few years ago; makes sense. They do have one of the most exciting, young, and talented teams in baseball though and a top five farm system loaded and ready to deliver with next person up pretty much across the board. 

They certainly have themselves well positioned, no arguing that. It will be interesting to see how all those rookies do in their second seasons, though. My money would still be on them, but there's a lot of variability in that lineup. I love the Josh Bell signing for them.

But we've seen plenty of career years be just that, a year. Can Kwan replicate that incredible rookie season? Can Gimenez produce similar results without a .353 BABIP? Or can he maintain that BABIP? There's plenty of young guys who burst on the scene and then flop. Not predicting that's what happens, and I enjoy watching their style of baseball, but there's plenty of question marks, and a still tiny payroll. It makes sense that Cleveland fans are the most optimistic going into 2023, but there's plenty to complain about as well with their lack of impact moves (outside of Bell) for the last handful of years. Similar to Rays fans. Team wins a good amount, but never really make big moves other than trading away their stars more often than not.

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

Maybe you were saying "moo" rather than "ohm"?

As to your body not bending, my thoughts are that if God wanted us to be able to touch our toes, God would have put them on our knees.

Louie C.K quote:  

“Putting on my socks is the worst part of every day, and it always will be. Even if I have a terrible day in the future where my grandmother is murdered by my other grandmother, if that ever happened to me, the worst part of that day will be when I put on my socks.”

[Major League Ready]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I think the Cleveland fans are the most positive at this point, but they haven't won a World Series in like 74 years and just spent the last few years cutting payroll to the bare minimum. I think they're plenty annoyed.

I tallied the wins for the last 6 years as I contemplated the relative success/failure of the twins during the Falvine era.  Turns out Cleveland has the 4th most wins in MLB during that period.  They are also extremely well-position with a very young/talented roster.  Maybe Cleveland fans should reconsider their position.

The Twins are 10th by the way.

1	Dodgers	562
2	Astros	541
3	Yankees	518
4	Guardians	493
5	Rays	492
6	Braves	483
7	Brewers	481
8	Red Sox	479
9	Cardinals	475
10	Twins	451
11	Athletics	451
12	Cubs	450
13	Mariners	442
14	Mets	437
15	Giants	431
16	Blue Jays	431
17	Phillies	424
18	Rockies	417
19	Padres	412
20	Diamondbacks	411
22	White Sox	410
22	Angels	408
23	Reds	386
24	Rangers	373
25	Nationals	373
26	Pirates	368
27	Marlins	364
28	Royals	362
29	Tigers	341
30	Orioles	337

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I tallied the wins for the last 6 years as I contemplated the relative success/failure of the twins during the Falvine era.  Turns out Cleveland has the 4th most wins in MLB during that period.  They are also extremely well-position with a very young/talented roster.  Maybe Cleveland fans should reconsider their position.

The Twins are 10th by the way.

1	Dodgers	562
2	Astros	541
3	Yankees	518
4	Guardians	493
5	Rays	492
6	Braves	483
7	Brewers	481
8	Red Sox	479
9	Cardinals	475
10	Twins	451
11	Athletics	451
12	Cubs	450
13	Mariners	442
14	Mets	437
15	Giants	431
16	Blue Jays	431
17	Phillies	424
18	Rockies	417
19	Padres	412
20	Diamondbacks	411
22	White Sox	410
22	Angels	408
23	Reds	386
24	Rangers	373
25	Nationals	373
26	Pirates	368
27	Marlins	364
28	Royals	362
29	Tigers	341
30	Orioles	337

Part of the point here is simply that we're not the only cranky fan base, and fandom isn't usually logical. I'd argue the Twins being top 10 should mean we aren't that cranky. But all those wins for Cleveland hasn't stopped their WS draught, or had them expanding their payroll. Instead they cut payroll. That's typically more than enough to create fan annoyance.

[Major League Ready]

19 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Part of the point here is simply that we're not the only cranky fan base, and fandom isn't usually logical. I'd argue the Twins being top 10 should mean we aren't that cranky. But all those wins for Cleveland hasn't stopped their WS draught, or had them expanding their payroll. Instead they cut payroll. That's typically more than enough to create fan annoyance.

WS wins have been dominated by large market teams and that disparity is probably going to grow.  Small market teams are at a tremendous disadvantage.  We should be annoyed at fans but we should also recognize the inequity as the problem not an organization that has overcome the disparity.  For myself, I refuse to let my enjoyment of the game be dictated by an outcome that would happen once ever 30 years on average if conditions were equal and we got our share.  

The Cleveland fans that are not paying attention to how they have succeeded think they are trying to cut payroll.   If you look at their history, their success has been a product of getting great returns on players they can't extend.  Their team would not be a contender if not for trading Kluber / Clevinger / Carrasco, and Lindor.  Further illustrating the point, Kluber, Clevinger and Carrasco were acquired by trading established players for prospects.  

The angst those Cleveland fans are feeling is a result of not understanding how their team outperformed teams that can easily spend double their payroll budget.

[chpettit19]

31 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

WS wins have been dominated by large market teams and that disparity is probably going to grow.  Small market teams are at a tremendous disadvantage.  We should be annoyed at fans but we should also recognize the inequity as the problem not an organization that has overcome the disparity.  For myself, I refuse to let my enjoyment of the game be dictated by an outcome that would happen once ever 30 years on average if conditions were equal and we got our share.  

The Cleveland fans that are not paying attention to how they have succeeded think they are trying to cut payroll.   If you look at their history, their success has been a product of getting great returns on players they can't extend.  Their team would not be a contender if not for trading Kluber / Clevinger / Carrasco, and Lindor.  Further illustrating the point, Kluber, Clevinger and Carrasco were acquired by trading established players for prospects.  

The angst those Cleveland fans are feeling is a result of not understanding how their team outperformed teams that can easily spend double their payroll budget.

I know your stance on team building and am not interested in getting into a debate on strategies. The angst those fans are feeling is a result of not winning a championship in 74 years, and the team trading away their stars instead of keeping them. Being at a disadvantage doesn't change that. Whether it's the right strategy or not isn't the point.

Fandom isn't about logic, it's about passion. I can understand the logic behind the Twins not wanting to pay for stars while still not liking, or even agreeing with, it. And Cleveland fans can feel the same way about their team. It's not about paying attention to anything. They haven't won a championship in 74 years, and trade their biggest stars unless they're willing to take incredibly team friendly deals. Whether that bothers you or not isn't the point. It doesn't make it wrong that other fans get upset about it.

And I'm not annoyed with fans, nor do I let any of this take away from my enjoyment of baseball.

[Major League Ready]

14 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I know your stance on team building and am not interested in getting into a debate on strategies. The angst those fans are feeling is a result of not winning a championship in 74 years, and the team trading away their stars instead of keeping them. Being at a disadvantage doesn't change that. Whether it's the right strategy or not isn't the point.

Fandom isn't about logic, it's about passion. I can understand the logic behind the Twins not wanting to pay for stars while still not liking, or even agreeing with, it. And Cleveland fans can feel the same way about their team. It's not about paying attention to anything. They haven't won a championship in 74 years, and trade their biggest stars unless they're willing to take incredibly team friendly deals. Whether that bothers you or not isn't the point. It doesn't make it wrong that other fans get upset about it.

And I'm not annoyed with fans, nor do I let any of this take away from my enjoyment of baseball.

By stance you mean reciting the facts instead of ignoring hard data because I don't like what it indicates?  Would it be preferable to have the Royals results?  They won a WS.  They also have the worst win percentage of any team in the league since the turn of the century.  

In the 25 years preceding the Royals brief success in 2013-15, they had 2 seasons where they reached a 500 win record when they won 84 games in 1993 and 83 games in 2012.  They have not been above 500 since.  They won 90 games or more exactly once in the past, the year they won the WS.

How did they assemble that team?  All of the players with a WAR above 1.5 are listed below along with how they were acquired.  This is broke down into Drafted / Trade / Free Agent / International and acquired as prospect (AaP)

It would be accurate to say that after years of futility and high draft picks they assembled an adequate core.  That core got a huge boost when they acquired their best player (Cain) and their SS (Escobar) by trading an established player (Zack Greinke).  The total contribution of free agents was 2.7 WAR from Edinson Volquez who is far from the profile fans clamor for in a free agent.  His contract was 2ys/$17M.  They made two trades, Zobrist at the deadline.  Did he make the difference in their 4-1 series win.  The other was Wade Davis who was very impactful but let’s be honest he was a piece added in a trade for Shields who was gone when they won the WS.   

So, yes, they won the WS and were horrible for most of 3 decades.  When they did win, traded a great player for prospects was far more important than free agents.  They also had no players that they had extended in route to building that winner.  They kept Gordon on the following years and never broke 500.  

Lorenzo Cain	140	6.1	AaP
Mike Moustakas	147	3.8	Drafted
Eric Hosmer	158	3.5	Drafted
Alex Gordon	104	2.7	Drafted
Kendrys Morales	158	2.1	AaP
Alcides Escobar	148	1.5	AaP
Ben Zobrist	59	1.5	Trade
Jarrod Dyson	90	1.4	Drafted
Yordano Ventura	163.1	2.7	Intl
Edinson Volquez	200.1	2.7	FA
Wade Davis	67.1	2	Trade