That’s it. I’m pretty much done with this front office.

[Major League Ready]

23 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I assume the Giants' front office is out looking for jobs as we speak?

I did say the real world.  I worked with a couple hundred of the fortune 1000.  In that environment, anyone who was so financial inept as to believe a 30M expense with not return meant nothing would be gone very quickly.  I fired a few myself but not once in my entire career did I ever meet someone with P&L responsibility for a 9 figure business that thought this way.  You simply can't get the job with this depth of financial ineptitude.

The good news is that these really bad deals and the general inefficiency of free agency allows small markets to compete with a fraction of the dollars. 

[Twinky]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:31 AM, Squirrel said:

They could have landed Correa by matching the money. I'm not sure the years mattered, although I wouldn't want a 13 yr contract. Then again, that could be rectified, too, in the end.

You think $350M puts Minnesota on equal footing with SF???? 

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Twinky said:

You think $350M puts Minnesota on equal footing with SF???? 

We'll never know. 

[Squirrel]

28 minutes ago, Twinky said:

You think $350M puts Minnesota on equal footing with SF???? 

As Mike said we'll never know ... but at least it would have been seriously trying and competitive. If you are going to talk the talk, then walk the walk ... the FO talks a good game, never backs it up, though

[Squirrel]

35 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

The good news is that these really bad deals and the general inefficiency of free agency allows small markets to compete with a fraction of the dollars. 

Allows us to compete? I'll call it competing when we get through a round or two of the playoffs. Until then, it is not competing. And box office revenues will decline with waning interest in the team

[FrankQuilicy]

7 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

It's super fascinating to me how many people on this forum dislike Falvine because of Falvine supposedly thinking they are the smartest guys in the room.  Would we prefer our FO not be the smartest guys in the room?

Well if we didn't know in 2016 we all should know now. I remember when Ralph Houk was brought in to oversee Tom Kelly and Andy McPhail. Who hired the bogus training staff?  Who hired the baserunning coach? Who DIDN'T hire a Major League Pitching Coach? Do we ever work on situational hitting? At what point do we spit out the kool ade and realize that the stink we see on the field is emanating from the executive offices.

[Beast]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:36 AM, IA Bean Counter said:

Its not a reasonable contract Brock.  I think if there was an issue in this case is they underestimated Boras and the giants willing to make an outlandish offer.  Our only chance at signing him went out the door when the Yankees signed Judge.   

I am not sure how you can be done with this front office when there are 22 other teams in the same boat as us.  If you aren't a New York, Texas, California team  or the Cubs or to a certain extent the cardinals it is very difficult to compete in free agency.  

My other concern is we did a bunch of trades to try to appease Correa.  Most of the trades I was OK with,  I am still concerned the Mahle trade is going to come back and bite us.  We need him to be a strong #2 to a low end #1 to make that trade pay off.  

I still think this front office has gotten more done than any other previous management team.  We have actually signed some high end players,  so I am happy with that.  

I just have no idea where you are going to spend the money this year.  Give a high AAV to Syndergaard to try to recoup and trade.  With Rodon being a boras agent I think we just need to move on.  Then its a question do we go with our prospects or do we sign Dansby.   

We are in such a better situation than any time in the early 2000's and their draft philosophy looks better as well.   

I just can’t get on board with anything said here.

We can’t compete in free agency because ownership chooses not to.  There is no real constraint.  We can debate whether you or I should care about the owners profit margin, which is what it boils down to.  I don’t, whatsoever.  I want to see championship baseball.  Whether “in the budget” or not, I don’t care.  If they’re going to field a crap team to maintain a minimum profit margin, i reserve the right to treat it accordingly.  Just like I wouldn’t praise Volkswagen for maintaining a phenomenal current ratio while my Jetta is waiting for a tow on I-94.

Money saved this year does not translate to money saved in 2025.  I don’t go to the ballpark to pull out the Statement of Membership Capital and say, “Wow, look at those retained earnings.”  They could spend considerably more money and still comfortably make money.  That’s just an indisputable fact.

On this FO: they have been a border line abomination.  They haven’t won a playoff game.  There’s been more years in which their moves have turned the clubhouse into a dumpster fire than they’ve been good.  They’ve made 3 of the most negligent trades for injured pitchers in the history of trades in any sport.  Their evaluation of Austin Martin in the Berrios trade was clearly poor (the kid stinks), they haven’t developed a good starting pitcher that can stay healthy in 7 years (Ryan came the Rays), their #1 overall draft pick hasn’t played baseball in like 4 years, they employ these asinine personnel strategies that have caused the injured list to be longer than the 40-man, the one time they decided to spend real money it was for a washed up Chad (Donaldson)….is there even one somewhat redeeming accomplishment?

I don’t see how we’re better off than when we won the division 7 out of 10 years in the ‘00s (when the division wasn’t as godawful as it is now). We sucked then (couldn’t win a playoff because of sitting our hands at the deadline), and we suck even worse now.  Also don’t see how they’re drafting better than the Terry Ryan era.  Ryan actually found ways to acquire and develop players (2 MVPs and a Cy Young, Torii Hunter, Liriano had significant development time in the organization - some high end talent).  The one year this current FO fielded a good team (2019), it was loaded with players the previous regime drafted and a free agent nobody else wanted (Cruz) who played out of body.

To clarify, I’m not defending the Ryan regime.  They needed to go.  But, these guys are certainly not doing a superior job.  Don’t care what the underlying philosophies are.  The results have been awful.

I get people love this franchise and want it to be good.  I do too.  We just see things differently in terms of results and trajectory, I guess.

[rwilfong86]

On 12/14/2022 at 8:48 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don’t even blame them for not landing Correa… well, not entirely. But it’s one more thing that doesn’t look good for them.

I’m tired of trading for injured pitchers.

I’m tired of the lack of pitching development.

I’m tired of them disliking long contracts more than they like good players.

I’m tired of them not getting “their guy” and instead pivoting, pivoting, and pivoting again.

I simply don’t see many reasons to keep them around anymore. They’re not exceptional at anything and have significant flaws. 

Another disaster like the past 2 seasons and this FO will be gone, so there is a bright side. I feel your pain though.

[bap3141]

7 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

Another disaster like the past 2 seasons and this FO will be gone, so there is a bright side. I feel your pain though.

And so will many of the fans, sadly.

[adorduan]

4 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

How does it not matter if a team is paying $30M/year for nothing for several years?  It does not matter today which is the only frame of reference many baseball fans can relate to.  It most certainly is an impediment for building a team during the years that contract is underperforming.  BTW ... This mindset will get your butt fired from a strategic role in a millisecond in the real world.

well, they might get fired for not winning pretty damn soon, so pick your poison.

[USAFChief]

30 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

Another disaster like the past 2 seasons and this FO will be gone...

Will they? I'm skeptical. 

[ashbury]

5 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

This mindset will get your butt fired from a strategic role in a millisecond in the real world.

 

3 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I assume the Giants' front office is out looking for jobs as we speak?

 

2 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

I did say the real world. 

So you are acknowledging that your experience doesn't carry over to running a baseball team such as the Giants? Chief's point remains unchallenged.

[Whitey333]

This team needs a house cleaning and not because of not signing Correa.  

[Linus]

I’m not a fan of the FO. They have done some good things with respect towards analytics and coaching staffs. However the bad decisions have been stacking up faster than the good decisions in almost all facets of player acquisition and development. Mostly due to being so rigid in their belief of their methodologies that aren’t working. They seemingly have no ability to change or make exceptions based on changed circumstances. So going in to their 7th season here is what we have: several rookies with injury histories and an uneven track record combined with aging vets that appear to be on the wrong side of their prime. A mediocre pitching staff that also is riddled by injuries and an obstinate refusal to solve the problem with any free agent signing.  To me the kicker is they have depleted the farm system to the point where making any significant trade is in question. You can dive into the details all you want but just take a step back and watch the overall arc of the franchise. It’s steadily downward. If you really want to get cynical you can point out that the only success they had was with the players inherited from the prior FO.  Ironically I would say that not signing Correa to that contract would fall into the category of a good decision. Not so with Rodon however. You can argue about all the details as happens on this site but pitching is still the name of the game and they just can’t identify it or develop it and refuse to use free agency to help. Sooo we will likely watch losing baseball with them at the helm unless they catch lightning in a bottle.  So yea I guess I’ve been done with them for a while. 

[solomon1930]

22 minutes ago, Whitey333 said:

This team needs a house cleaning and not because of not signing Correa.  

No argument there.

Buy the team and take care of that for us.

[Irishman]

I’m done with the Twins.   

[Mike Sixel]

I admit I bought the line that this FO was different then the previous ones. The only difference is they trade off prospects (and sometimes vets at the deadline). Otherwise, it is the same FO as all the others....implying to me it isn't the FO that is the problem here.

[notoriousgod71]

11 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

It's super fascinating to me how many people on this forum dislike Falvine because of Falvine supposedly thinking they are the smartest guys in the room.  Would we prefer our FO not be the smartest guys in the room?

I would prefer they be the smartest in the room rather than mistakenly thinking they are. Even if they're the only two people in the room they still have the chair to contend with.

[Major League Ready]

11 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Allows us to compete? I'll call it competing when we get through a round or two of the playoffs. Until then, it is not competing. And box office revenues will decline with waning interest in the team

I said "allows small markets to compete with a fraction of the dollars."  You have changed the context of an entire market which addresses the ability to compete not if one particular team has had the success you expect / demand.  If you want to debate that point, fine let's debate the point I made instead of using this statement completely out of context.  Try addressing the point I actually made.  If free agency was efficient and effective would teams with half the payroll capacity have chance?

[Major League Ready]

11 hours ago, ashbury said:

 

 

So you are acknowledging that your experience doesn't carry over to running a baseball team such as the Giants? Chief's point remains unchallenged.

Wouldn’t it be more germane to ask if it makes sense for people without any experience running a $300M or larger company a formal education in finance and analytics to take the type of unwavering positions we see here.  Shouldn’t the fact that most people even very skilled people have skills that have nothing to do with managing assets or operating models, cause some hesitation when assuming management must be incompetent if we disagree with their strategy.  How many people on this site that have ever negotiated and signed an 8 contract much less a 9 figure contract.  Very few have any experience putting together strategic plans, etc.  Would it be better to not be incumbered with these experiences when evaluating these things within a different industry?  Yet, your question is not addressed to those without experience.  You ask what value is a lifetime of experience in other industries have if the product being sold happens to be baseball?  

Everyone gets to state their opinion on the internet.  That's great.  It's fun.  Everyone should state their opinion.  I have stated mine and I am quite aware that experience or education has no weight within this medium.

[old nurse]

On 12/14/2022 at 8:48 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don’t even blame them for not landing Correa… well, not entirely. But it’s one more thing that doesn’t look good for them.

I’m tired of trading for injured pitchers.

I’m tired of the lack of pitching development.

I’m tired of them disliking long contracts more than they like good players.

I’m tired of them not getting “their guy” and instead pivoting, pivoting, and pivoting again.

I simply don’t see many reasons to keep them around anymore. They’re not exceptional at anything and have significant flaws. 

Other than Tampa Bay’s and St Louis’ organization there isn’t a GM who has had sustained success with mid market teams Mr Bloom in Boston shows it might not pay to hire the underling, LA shows it pays to poach the boss  Replace the GM with what?  What is going to make a GM successful? 

Perhaps it is the years of Mauer comments here, but there is no win win situation with contracts. Long contracts for good players become long contracts for broken players. 

Is it pitching development or is it selection of talent?  What they drafted has not worked  the talent of the prospects traded for has 

 

[old nurse]

12 hours ago, ashbury said:

 

 

So you are acknowledging that your experience doesn't carry over to running a baseball team such as the Giants? Chief's point remains unchallenged.

For the moment the Chiefs argument wins, but only for the moment. From Sabean’s 3 WS wins to 1 wild card win in 5 years, Zaidi’s chair will get warm quickly

[Cap'n Piranha]

22 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

I did say the real world.  I worked with a couple hundred of the fortune 1000.  In that environment, anyone who was so financial inept as to believe a 30M expense with not return meant nothing would be gone very quickly.  I fired a few myself but not once in my entire career did I ever meet someone with P&L responsibility for a 9 figure business that thought this way.  You simply can't get the job with this depth of financial ineptitude.

The good news is that these really bad deals and the general inefficiency of free agency allows small markets to compete with a fraction of the dollars. 

The Giants may indeed get a near-zero return on their $27M for 3-5 years in the future.  But they may also get a $40M-$60M return on their $27M for 8-10 years now.  Seems like something that could very well happen in the "real world".

[Major League Ready]

31 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

The Giants may indeed get a near-zero return on their $27M for 3-5 years in the future.  But they may also get a $40M-$60M return on their $27M for 8-10 years now.  Seems like something that could very well happen in the "real world".

Fair enough, anything is possible.  It's widely reported teams have models to predict value that I assume are probability driven.  Could it work out like Jeter?  Sure and we don't have a large sample size of 8+ years deals that have run their course.  What we do know is that Jeters deal was the only one that really worked out and it ended when he was 35.  The remaining sample we have suggest these deals are an absolutely horrible idea.  It's more likely according to history to go like Pujlos, Cabrera, Cano, Heyward.  

It's a lot less horrible for the Giants who could absorb his salary 4 or 5 times and still have the Twin's payroll capacity leftover.  I think that's getting lost in this discussion.  

[Mike Sixel]

Joey Gallo for 11 million......ya, I'm done with this FO.

[Musk21]

7 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Joey Gallo for 11 million......ya, I'm done with this FO.

I just don't know what purpose he serves.  LH hitting corner outfielder, poor avg, poor OBP, a TON of K's.  11 million?!?  Signing Sano to a incentive-based 1 yr deal would have been less perplexing.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:31 PM, IndianaTwin said:

Opening Day isn't until March 30, folks. 

Plenty of time to screw up some more 

[jctwins]

23 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

We'll never know. 

Good point...we all kept hearing how much he liked it here...from sources that rely on getting information from people inside the Twins...

 

 

 

/sarcasm

[FrankQuilicy]

i dont have 10 years to watch these genuises tear down our franchise and try to rebuild it in a Texas/Cleveland super championship juggernaut. Bringing them here was a mistake. Let's rebuild the front office and let some competent people rebuild our roster.

[sjunisu]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:12 AM, Nine of twelve said:

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I would like you tell us what you would have done differently during the last couple months had you been Falvey and/or Levine. You even have the benefit of hindsight to guide you. I ask that you do try to put yourself in the mindset that you are handling hundreds of thousands of real dollars, not fantasy league dollars. I'm truly curious to see how you would have handled the last couple months.

The "Well what you do" line is tired and a cop out.  This duo has done nothing that a semi-well informed person couldn't have done in regards to drafting, trading, and FA acquisitions.  And have utterly failed on the 'training' front given our rash of injuries. Outside of the Cruz/Ryan trade, they have nothing to hang their hat on.  Personally I would be happy to answer a question like this when Joe Pohlad is willing to give me Falvey's contract.  Until then, most people don't work for free.