That’s it. I’m pretty much done with this front office.

[jdgoin]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I think the FO has done a lot of really great things. I think they dug the team out of the dark ages and brought it into the new world. They setup an actual analytics department. 

As the former director of this non-existent analytics department, I take offense to this comment. ??

[KirbyDome89]

18 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I less disappointed in not getting Correa than I am in how badly they got played by Boras. 

The Twins COULD have beat the Bogaerts deal as evidenced by the contract they offered Correa, but Boras purposefully had Bogaerts sign first so he could use the Twins to get a better deal for Correa. They should have seen through Boras' platitudes about them being real contenders and swimming in the ocean with the big boys. The Twins should have told him they were out on Correa from the onset and that they wanted the second best shortstop instead.

You're giving Boras way too much credit.

There's no way the Twins thought they were actually getting Correa on a sweetheart deal. The leaked details of their offer and the quick move to acquire Farmer both suggest MN wasn't going to play in the deep end. 

[HawksNest]

I agree with most of the posters and believe that the current FO regime has outworn their welcome. It has nothing to do with personal issues with either of them, it's purely about the results on the field. All that being said, it's quite clear that they caught lightning in a bottle in 2019 and it's sort of all been downhill from then. In 2019, with the most prolific HR offense in the history of the game, they refused to capitalize on what was clearly a magical season by trading only for damaged goods (recurring issue here?) in Sam Dyson and Sergio Romo.

They've since presided over poor decision, after poor decision that has left the current MLB roster in rough shape, and the farm system even worse.

If I was an engaged owner (how nice would it be to have one of those?) I'd have a very short leash on the current regime with serious changes ready to be made if 2023 goes the way it's looking like it will. It will have been 7 seasons at that point. Plenty of time to determine success and it's clear that things have been going backwards for years now.

[chpettit19]

26 minutes ago, jdgoin said:

As the former director of this non-existent analytics department, I take offense to this comment. ??

Finally gave the analytics department the tools and freedom to do what is needed!

Fixed it ??

[DJL44]

My biggest problem with this front office is they don't bring in any international free agent pitching talent. None. You can't create a pitching pipeline solely through the draft.

Posted this elsewhere but it is worth repeating here. The only pitcher this front office has signed to a long-term contract is Randy Dobnak.

[Mike Sixel]

Lots of people said they'd judge the FO after this year.......At what point do results with THEIR players matter? The core of this team is still Buxton, Polanco, Kepler and a bunch of question marks (and Arraez) for position players. 

[jdgoin]

36 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

You're giving Boras way too much credit.

There's no way the Twins thought they were actually getting Correa on a sweetheart deal. The leaked details of their offer and the quick move to acquire Farmer both suggest MN wasn't going to play in the deep end. 

You’re not giving Boras enough credit.

[jdgoin]

16 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Finally gave the analytics department the tools and freedom to do what is needed!

Fixed it ??

Ownership deserves a little bit of credit here as well.

[nicksaviking]

41 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

You're giving Boras way too much credit.

There's no way the Twins thought they were actually getting Correa on a sweetheart deal. The leaked details of their offer and the quick move to acquire Farmer both suggest MN wasn't going to play in the deep end. 

Disagree. I don't believe for a second ownership wants a 100M payroll, it's going to cost them more in attendance and they don't want the fan anger or apathy. They aren't nickel and diming their payroll to fill out the roster either. They did intend to get a big ticket free agent, but the front office failed to realize how deep the ocean actually was.

[SwainZag]

4 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

But $325m gets you to the table in real negotiations. The fact that the Twins were off by more than $60m made it a pretty easy decision for Carlos.

Obviously I don't know how it all went down, but it's possible 10/285 was the best offer on the table until a few days ago.  San Fran swoops in with their 13/350 and Boras comes to the Twins and gives them, "here's the offer."  Would it make you feel better if the Twins said...oh well...we will offer 10/325 then.  Knowing it still wouldn't get it done?  

Even after the Turner and Bogarts contracts, if the Twins sat thinking they had the best offer, what good would it have been bidding against yourself?  Obviously looking at it now saying the Twins weren't serious and got outbid by $65M is easy to say.  You could also say that San fran was desperate and overbid as well.

Either way, I do think people are getting lost in the Correa stuff.  IMO, the roster is stronger than it before Carlos signed last year, and the off season is young.

[nicksaviking]

13 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

Obviously I don't know how it all went down, but it's possible 10/285 was the best offer on the table until a few days ago.  San Fran swoops in with their 13/350 and Boras comes to the Twins and gives them, "here's the offer."  Would it make you feel better if the Twins said...oh well...we will offer 10/325 then.  Knowing it still wouldn't get it done?  

Even after the Turner and Bogarts contracts, if the Twins sat thinking they had the best offer, what good would it have been bidding against yourself?  Obviously looking at it now saying the Twins weren't serious and got outbid by $65M is easy to say.  You could also say that San fran was desperate and overbid as well.

Either way, I do think people are getting lost in the Correa stuff.  IMO, the roster is stronger than it before Carlos signed last year, and the off season is young.

Boras has repeatedly said that he will not go back and give the former team an opportunity to best another team's offer. The Twins, and every team, need to make their best offer, than his client chooses.

I'm sure the Twins knew 10/285 wasn't going to get it done the moment Bogarts signed for 11/280. That's probably why they were immediately on a video call with Swanson when that news broke and have started getting linked to Rodon the last several days. This buzzkill news is new to us, but the front office knew it was happening a week ago and desperately tried to pivot.

 

[Rosterman]

Man, if money isn't the issue, go ahead and sign Correa for six years and $300m. Be upfront and pay high and get your return in the beginning, folks.....don't stretch out the investment.

 

 

[SwainZag]

9 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Boras has repeatedly said that he will not go back and give the former team an opportunity to best another team's offer. The Twins, and every team, need to make their best offer, than his client chooses.

I'm sure the Twins knew 10/285 wasn't going to get it done the moment Bogarts signed for 11/280. That's probably why they were immediately on a video call with Swanson when that news broke and have started getting linked to Rodon the last several days. This buzzkill news is new to us, but the front office knew it was happening a week ago and desperately tried to pivot.

 

Ah, well if they knew they wouldn't get a chance to counter offer then my point is mute.

[USAFChief]

24 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

Obviously I don't know how it all went down, but it's possible 10/285 was the best offer on the table until a few days ago.  San Fran swoops in with their 13/350 and Boras comes to the Twins and gives them, "here's the offer."  Would it make you feel better if the Twins said...oh well...we will offer 10/325 then.  Knowing it still wouldn't get it done?  

Even after the Turner and Bogarts contracts, if the Twins sat thinking they had the best offer, what good would it have been bidding against yourself?  Obviously looking at it now saying the Twins weren't serious and got outbid by $65M is easy to say.  You could also say that San fran was desperate and overbid as well.

Either way, I do think people are getting lost in the Correa stuff.  IMO, the roster is stronger than it before Carlos signed last year, and the off season is young.

Lets's be honest. The Twins were out on Correa when they traded for Farmer. Before they traded for Farmer. 

[Mike Sixel]

If the FO thought paying CC less than Turner got was going to work, I have no interest in them being the FO.

[gunnarthor]

7 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don’t even blame them for not landing Correa… well, not entirely. But it’s one more thing that doesn’t look good for them.

I’m tired of trading for injured pitchers.

I’m tired of the lack of pitching development.

I’m tired of them disliking long contracts more than they like good players.

I’m tired of them not getting “their guy” and instead pivoting, pivoting, and pivoting again.

I simply don’t see many reasons to keep them around anymore. They’re not exceptional at anything and have significant flaws. 

Welcome Brock. I've been waiting for you to join the club for some time now. Glad you're on the team. 

[baul0010]

5 hours ago, IA Bean Counter said:

I still think this front office has gotten more done than any other previous management team.  We have actually signed some high end players,  so I am happy with that.  

Just because the front office has made moves that other front offices did not, does not make them better.  The winning seasons we've put together were players mostly from other front offices!  Instead of Falvey and Levine taking what was good and making it better, they've only seemed to make everything worse.  Our minor league talent is worse, our record keeps getting worse, and as of now, the talent going into 2023 is definitely not going to be better.  

[stringer bell]

I agree with much of the sentiment above--Falvey and Levine have been wrong too often to not be on the hot seat. On the other hand, I think their overall plan is reasonable and the Twins can contend in the future. They can't afford to be wrong any more. 

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Lots of people said they'd judge the FO after this year.......At what point do results with THEIR players matter? The core of this team is still Buxton, Polanco, Kepler and a bunch of question marks (and Arraez) for position players. 

With this FO, it would be par for the course if Spencer Steer has the best season next year.

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Lots of people said they'd judge the FO after this year.......At what point do results with THEIR players matter? The core of this team is still Buxton, Polanco, Kepler and a bunch of question marks (and Arraez) for position players. 

I was one of them.  At this point I like a lot of what they have done but you are right the results have not been great.  However, they have not been bad either and we simply did not get a chance to evaluate many of the players we thought would allow us to grade this FO last year because of injuries.  I think fans just expect 95 win seasons.  San Diego has had one 90 win season since the turn of the century.  KC has been perennially bad.  They had 1 1/2 good seasons and have been consistently bad other than a run that was a product of having high draft choices for 15 years.  The Phillies have not had a 90 win season since 2012.  Of course, they got hot and won the WS this year. 

The White Sox have had one 90 win season since 2006!  

With all the injuries last year, 2023 is a big year for this organization.  Ober / Varland / SWR / Winder / Canterino / Alcala / Raya / Balazovic / Moran / Festa and Prielipp are all question marks that could make us feel pretty good or pretty bad about the pitching we have developed.  I added Ober because his improved slider at the end of the season could change his ceiling.  

We still have Lewis / Kirilloff, Larnach, Wallner / Martin. and Julien to figure out on the offensive side. plus, if Martin pans out we are going to be feeling pretty good about the Berrios trade.  

[Mike Sixel]

6 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I was one of them.  At this point I like alot of what they have done but you are right the results have not been great.  However, I think fans just expect 95 win seasons.  San Diego has had one 90 win season since the turn of the century.  KC has been perennially bad.  They had 1 1/2 good seasons and have been consistently bad.  The Phillies have not had a 90 win season since 2012.  Of course the got hot and won the WS this year. 

The White Sox have had one 90 win season since 2006!  

I don't care about how those other GMs are doing.....And I don't expect 95 wins every year. I'm not sure where anyone said that in this thread.

As constructed, do you see this coming year as a legit contender? Even a favorite for the weakest division in sports? I'm not sure I do. And, they lose their two best SPs after this year (or first and third best). I was a major defender of them the last couple years, but they've lost me the last two FA periods. It is clear they won't play in the deep end, and they haven't been aggressive in the next tier of FAs. They haven't won anything as the team becomes more and more their players. They have one elite player and he's not likely to play more than 100 games. 

[SoDakTwinsFan]

To those saying "this is a 90 loss team without Correa..." OF COURSE it is.  This was a 84 loss team WITH Correa and Buxton AND after the "big moves" we made at the deadline.  

This team is so far away from competing which is why I thought signing Buxton was a mistake.  They should have absolutely traded him.  We did/do not have the pieces to compliment him.  None of our pitching prospects look like aces which is important because we will NEVER sign one.  

Hindsight is always 20/20 and maybe/hopefully I'm wrong.  But we should have went full rebuild last offseason.  Traded Buxton.  Loaded heavy on pitching prospects.  We have some good young hitters that will form a solid lineup.  Should have traded for some young pitching to pair with them.  

Here's to hoping Mahle and Paddock come back strong.

And I am not saying Buxton is overpaid.  His contract is fair.  I just believe he should have been traded.

To get an ace you have to sign one which the Twins won't do.  Or you develop them which they seem to be incapable of doing so then you have to trade for one. 

[Major League Ready]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

I don't care about how those other GMs are doing.....And I don't expect 95 wins every year. I'm not sure where anyone said that in this thread.

As constructed, do you see this coming year as a legit contender? Even a favorite for the weakest division in sports? I'm not sure I do. And, they lose their two best SPs after this year (or first and third best). I was a major defender of them the last couple years, but they've lost me the last two FA periods. It is clear they won't play in the deep end, and they haven't been aggressive in the next tier of FAs. They haven't won anything as the team becomes more and more their players. They have one elite player and he's not likely to play more than 100 games. 

You are making my point.  We are not LA or NY.  Expecting a team that rans about 18th in revenue to outbid the top markets is bound to disappoint.   It's hard to win when other teams can double your spending.  Perhaps more to the point, you are expecting them to follow strategies that are the opposite of what has produced winning teams for mid and small market teams.  I have charted all of those successful teams for the past 20 years.  None of them followed the strategy you insist is imperative. Cleveland / Tampa, and Oakland have by far the most 90 win seasons in the mid and small tier.  They have not signed one $100M free agent among them in any of the 28 seasons they won 90 games.  You have beat this drum repeatedly but you are completely ignoring the facts / history in doing so.  

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Major League Ready said:

You are making my point.  We are not LA or NY.  Expecting a team that rans about 18th in revenue to outbid the top markets is bound to disappoint.   It's hard to win when other teams can double your spending.  Perhaps more to the point, you are expecting them to follow strategies that are the opposite of what has produced winning teams for mid and small market teams.  I have charted all of those successful teams for the past 20 years.  None of them followed the strategy you insist is imperative. Cleveland / Tampa, and Oakland have by far the most 90 win seasons in the mid and small tier.  They have not signed one $100M free agent among them in any of the 28 seasons they won 90 games.  You have beat this drum repeatedly but you are completely ignoring the facts / history in doing so.  

They had a payroll of 135 million last year. They have money. ONLY tampa has succeeded at being Tampa. You never talk about Pitt or Cincy or any of the teams that FAIL at that strategy. I've also been very clear now that they've shown they aren't going to seriously compete this coming year, they should deal Gray and Mahle and Kepler. Maybe Polanco. Blow it up and start over. Because playing the middle strategy of not being bad doesn't usually work. 

You literally said the last two years they SHOULD sign a legit big time player, because they had the money and they had cheap, controllable, players. You just posted you think they should next year. I'm a little confused at this point what your point is.

Mine is simple....if you won't play in the deep end, and you expect to have a payroll around 135 MM and you are filled with cheap, pre-arb players, you should be aggressive in the next tier of FAs. Like the second best FA catcher, for example. Which was a good move.

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Disagree. I don't believe for a second ownership wants a 100M payroll, it's going to cost them more in attendance and they don't want the fan anger or apathy. They aren't nickel and diming their payroll to fill out the roster either. They did intend to get a big ticket free agent, but the front office failed to realize how deep the ocean actually was.

We're only a couple months removed from DSP scolding fans and talking about scaling back payroll. I'm skeptical ownership is going to throw money around for fan service. 

The conspiracy theory starts to unravel when you consider that Bogaerts, and by extension Boras himself, are being ****ed over no? If he honestly felt the Twins would've beat SD's offer, why not give Bogaerts to MN and use SD the way he has allegedly used MN? The Twins weren't remotely close on Correa, which Boras certainly knew, and the Padres have been far more aggressive + they're a division rival. Wouldn't it be to Boras' advantage if they were the team he was leveraging against SF? 

My guess is Boras knew where MN was with Correa and Bogaerts, and in both instances they weren't close. 

[terrydactyls]

35 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They had a payroll of 135 million last year. They have money. ONLY tampa has succeeded at being Tampa. You never talk about Pitt or Cincy or any of the teams that FAIL at that strategy. I've also been very clear now that they've shown they aren't going to seriously compete this coming year, they should deal Gray and Mahle and Kepler. Maybe Polanco. Blow it up and start over. Because playing the middle strategy of not being bad doesn't usually work. 

You literally said the last two years they SHOULD sign a legit big time player, because they had the money and they had cheap, controllable, players. You just posted you think they should next year. I'm a little confused at this point what your point is.

Mine is simple....if you won't play in the deep end, and you expect to have a payroll around 135 MM and you are filled with cheap, pre-arb players, you should be aggressive in the next tier of FAs. Like the second best FA catcher, for example. Which was a good move.

I also think it's a year to be a seller.  But I would like to see them use the rest of the off-season signing free agents that might be assets for deadline trades.  Fill the Saints lineup with near ready, high-end young players and plan for 2023.

[SanoMustGo]

All I  know is this looks like a 65-75 win group as is.  The FO has to do something.  Trade Lewis before he blows out a knee again.  There are too many injury prone/injury risk guys on this team to have any confidence.  And, it's time to cut bait on Kepler and possibly Polanco.   If they do nothing else of note in the offseason, there is not much to watch unless they start to prove me wrong.

[Mike Sixel]

26 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

I also think it's a year to be a seller.  But I would like to see them use the rest of the off-season signing free agents that might be assets for deadline trades.  Fill the Saints lineup with near ready, high-end young players and plan for 2023.

That's largely not really a thing. Few players are signed and traded in the same year. Very few.

[mnfireman]

TD posters be like:

[Major League Ready]

49 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They had a payroll of 135 million last year. They have money. ONLY tampa has succeeded at being Tampa. You never talk about Pitt or Cincy or any of the teams that FAIL at that strategy. I've also been very clear now that they've shown they aren't going to seriously compete this coming year, they should deal Gray and Mahle and Kepler. Maybe Polanco. Blow it up and start over. Because playing the middle strategy of not being bad doesn't usually work. 

You literally said the last two years they SHOULD sign a legit big time player, because they had the money and they had cheap, controllable, players. You just posted you think they should next year. I'm a little confused at this point what your point is.

Mine is simple....if you won't play in the deep end, and you expect to have a payroll around 135 MM and you are filled with cheap, pre-arb players, you should be aggressive in the next tier of FAs. Like the second best FA catcher, for example. Which was a good move.

I agree that if they are not going to compete they should trade the players you mentioned.  Cleveland / Oakland and Tampa have 10/10&9 ninety win seasons since 2000.   The closest team in the bottom half of revenue is the twins with 6.  The difference between Cle/Oak/Tampa is that those teams have been far more aggressive trading established players for near ready prospects.  Those teams generally produce nearly 50% of their WAR from players prospects acquired in trade for established players.  The twins have had virtually none until the arrival of Duran / Alcala and Celestino.  Of course, they are a year removed from the Berrios trade. 

Oaklands largest free agent deal was Billy Butler 3/$30M.  The biggest free agent signing for Tampa just occurred.  3/40M for Efflin.  Cleveland's is 3/60 Edwin Encarnación.

I use these teams as examples because they are the only teams in the bottom half of revenue that have been more successful than the twins.   I would cite examples of teams that employ the strategy you are promoting if they existed, but they do not.  You are assuming what strategy will be successful.  I am simply citing which strategies have been successful.