Who's your SS now that Correa is a Giant?

[wsnydes]

4 minutes ago, cHawk said:

Thems fighting visuals...

[Riverbrian]

5 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

It's preferable to Swanson, IMO. Obviously, others may feel differently and that's fine.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm less frustrated that the Twins failed to land Correa than I am the fact that their offer wasn't even close and they wasted a ton of time stalling when they could have been pursuing other players.

I can't imagine any scenario where professionals in a position of such prestige would know they are $70 million away yet still willing to stubbornly hold their breath hoping for a miracle while alternative options flew away. 

I don't believe that I would ever do that. I have no assumption that you would do that, I don't believe Glunn would do that. Carole would never... however, Ash Might. ?

That's a pretty severe case of incompetence that you are leveling against them. 

Do you really believe that they would torch an off-season on a long shot knowing that they are $70 million shy?

I'd assume that deep down you don't. But... I don't know. You seem quite frustrated. 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

15 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I can't imagine any scenario where professionals in a position of such prestige would know they are $70 million away yet still willing to stubbornly hold their breath hoping for a miracle while alternative options flew away. 

I don't believe that I would ever do that. I have no assumption that you would do that, I don't believe Glunn would do that. Carole would never... however, Ash Might. ?

That's a pretty severe case of incompetence that you are leveling against them. 

Do you really believe that they would torch an off-season on a long shot knowing that they are $70 million shy?

I'd assume that deep down you don't. But... I don't know. You seem quite frustrated. 

My point - and if you read through a couple of threads I've made it multiple times - is that every reasonable person knew Correa was going to get at least $300m. The Twins never offered even $300m.

If they offered $325m two weeks ago, maybe Correa is still in a Twins uniform. Maybe he's not. But at least they gave it a legit shot. That's my beef with them.

And yeah, I feel it involved quite a bit of incompetence to not realize Correa was going to at least match Trea Turner's $300m contract and respond accordingly. Even if they decided that is too rich for them, I don't have a real issue with that. But then they would have been able to transition their focus to someone like Willson Contreras and improve the 2023 team.

[Riverbrian]

3 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

My point - and if you read through a couple of threads I've made it multiple times - is that every reasonable person knew Correa was going to get at least $300m. The Twins never offered even $300m.

If they offered $325m two weeks ago, maybe Correa is still in a Twins uniform. Maybe he's not. But at least they gave it a legit shot. That's my beef with them.

And yeah, I feel it involved quite a bit of incompetence to not realize Correa was going to at least match Trea Turner's $300m contract and respond accordingly.

You know for sure the Twins never offered $300? 

Are you talking formal offers? Are you talking about discussions with the agent? Are you talking about how high they were willing to go if necessary? How Many Years? AAV? What was the communication between Boras and Falvey/Lavine or Pohlad? What did the Giants think? Was $350 and 13 years sitting there on the table for months or two hours? Would they have gone higher? Did the Cubs make an offer? What was it? Was it formal? Was it being discussed?  

What did you know Brock and how did you know? Gleeman? Heyman? 

Every reasonable person that isn't in the room knew? And the unreasonable people in the room... didn't. 

Is that reasonable? 

You have a little bit of information... that might be right. It might not... shall we burn it down now?  

 

[DJL44]

7 hours ago, IA Bean Counter said:

In 2021 the highest contract given was 150 million.   

TOTALS							186	$1,363,676,000	$7,331,591
AVERAGE							1.3	$9,536,196	$7,331,591
PLAYER (143)	POS.	AGE	BATS	THROWS	FROM	TO	YRS	DOLLARS	AVERAGE SALARY
J.T. Realmuto QO	C	29.8	R	R	PHI	PHI	5	$115,500,000	$23,100,000

2020 

TOTALS							184	$2,042,313,500	$11,099,530
AVERAGE							1.53	$17,019,279	$11,099,530
PLAYER (120)	POS.	AGE	BATS	THROWS	FROM	TO	YRS	DOLLARS	AVERAGE SALARY
Zack Wheeler QO	SP	29.5	L	R	NYM	PHI	5	$118,000,000	$23,600,000

Two outstanding moves by the Phillies.

[darin617]

12 hours ago, Azviking101 said:

also next years FA class is supposed to be one of the worst we’ve seen in years. So if they haven’t spent this year they certainly won’t next year either

[darin617]

Just sign Jose Iglesias to a dirt cheap deal.

[troyjuhn]

Kyle Farmer is not a bad holdover to have at short, plus he's got position flexibility. I'd play him they're until Royce is ready to return, but having a player like Dansby would be ideal at short, though I'd much rather throw money at Rodon. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

You know for sure the Twins never offered $300? 

Are you talking formal offers? Are you talking about discussions with the agent? Are you talking about how high they were willing to go if necessary? How Many Years? AAV? What was the communication between Boras and Falvey/Lavine or Pohlad? What did the Giants think? Was $350 and 13 years sitting there on the table for months or two hours? Would they have gone higher? Did the Cubs make an offer? What was it? Was it formal? Was it being discussed?  

What did you know Brock and how did you know? Gleeman? Heyman? 

Every reasonable person that isn't in the room knew? And the unreasonable people in the room... didn't. 

Is that reasonable? 

You have a little bit of information... that might be right. It might not... shall we burn it down now?  

Dan Hayes reported the Twins’ final offer was 10/$285m. 

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

however, Ash Might. ?

I'm still holding my breath that this whole Correa-to-the-Giants thing is a huge mixup and we're still in it. Our offer to Correa drops by $5M every 12 hours he doesn't sign with us, and we're now down to $275M.  He'd better hurry up and make up his mind.

[AceWrigley]

Royce Lewis says he is ahead of schedule rehabbing his knee and since this isn't his 1st rehab rodeo he probably knows what he is talking about. The Brave's Ronald Acuna tore his ACL July 10, 2021 on a similar awkward outfield play and returned to action April 28, 2022. Thats 9-1/2 months to recover. Lewis went down June 10, and a speedy 10-month recovery would put him ready in April 2023. I don't know how major-league ready he will be, but we might see Royce on the diamond sooner than most think.

[AceWrigley]

Maaaaybe . . . The Twins only sign a few players to fill holes, and Royce Lewis leads a group of gritty "kids" to take the Central Crown. That would be a fun summer at Bullseye field.

[RaoulDuke]

They waited the Correa thing out way to long, now they have a bag and the only place to spend it is overpaying Swanson or Rodon.

Both are very good players but have a lot of question marks.  I think I would prefer they spend on Rodon and roll with Farmer or a stop gap trade until Lewis or Lee claims the position (hopefully this year...).

I like Swanson but not at the insane contract he is going to get, its telling ATL isn't really even trying to bring him back even before the market exploded.

 

 

[MTV]

At this point just pay Swanson. He’s got a solid enough bat and will actually be out there every day, you can’t have too many Shortstops and you need a Home Run/RBI hitter in your lineup. Don’t trade for a SS, let pieces be traded for a high-end offensive player that can affect your lineup, most likely a 1B, 3B or corner OF. I think Rafael Devers would fit perfectly in MN for a year

[bighat]

20 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Sure glad they moved on from Gio Urshela so that they could clear payroll space for...

Gio wasn't the answer to this problem, or any other problem, really. He wasn't that good for the Twins and probably won't do much for his new team, either. I'd rather the Twins finish in dead last and play prospects all year than have them finish in 4th while playing Gio Urshela-types. 

 

[Riverbrian]

9 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Dan Hayes reported the Twins’ final offer was 10/$285m. 

At least it wasn't that dot.com guy who spilled the Padres offered Judge $400 million all over the place. Still can't get that stain out of the carpet.   

I'm trying to appeal to that voice of reason in your head. If I fail... I fail. 

You have a little bit of information. Probably not comprehensive. You are using that little bit of information to support a narrative that the front office is capable of not realizing what people not in the room realize. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

58 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

At least it wasn't that dot.com guy who spilled the Padres offered Judge $400 million all over the place. Still can't get that stain out of the carpet.   

I'm trying to appeal to that voice of reason in your head. If I fail... I fail. 

You have a little bit of information. Probably not comprehensive. You are using that little bit of information to support a narrative that the front office is capable of not realizing what people not in the room realize. 

No, you're appealing to what you think is the voice of reason. Let's not conflate those two things.

This isn't the first time this front office has been blown out of the water by undercutting a free agent they were "supposedly" in deep with. It happened with Wheeler. It happened with Darvish. Both ended up signing for money that made the Twins' offer at the time look embarrassing. Now it has happened again with Correa.

This isn't a single data point. It has been happening damned near every offseason for the past five years. And at some point, it stops being an ugly coincidence and becomes an inherent failure of the front office's ability to read a market.

I gave them the benefit of the doubt year after year but enough is enough. They're still making the same mistakes they were making in 2018. I didn't turn on the front office then. I didn't even turn on them in 2021. But when the same mistakes keep happening over and over again, it's rather reasonable to say "they're not the right people for the job".

[IA Bean Counter]

40 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

No, you're appealing to what you think is the voice of reason. Let's not conflate those two things.

This isn't the first time this front office has been blown out of the water by undercutting a free agent they were "supposedly" in deep with. It happened with Wheeler. It happened with Darvish. Both ended up signing for money that made the Twins' offer at the time look embarrassing. Now it has happened again with Correa.

This isn't a single data point. It has been happening damned near every offseason for the past five years. And at some point, it stops being an ugly coincidence and becomes an inherent failure of the front office's ability to read a market.

I gave them the benefit of the doubt year after year but enough is enough. They're still making the same mistakes they were making in 2018.

Brock -  there were 2 teams in on Correa.  You had the Twins at $285,  and then the Giants.  Boras told Giants $350 was the number they wanted,  65 million higher than the next higher offer.  Then used a like on a tweet from the Mets and likely a conversation with them to scare the Giants.   What this tells you is the Giants were serious about getting Correa and they were going to sign him hell or high water.   

As to historical,  I am ok with the Twins shooting to try to get superstars signed.  We won't get the deal done very often,  but I like to see them throw their hat in the ring.  It will continue to open up opportunities like Correa last year, even though I think that move set the organization back a year or two personally.  

This market has caught a lot of people off guard not the Twins.  Atlanta is looking stupid now for not getting a deal done with Dansby.  He will likely go for double what he was expected to go for at the beginning of the season.  

Look,  I think the Twins could have pivoted slightly earlier.  However,  there are very few other contracts I would rather have that have already been signed.  I am waiting for the silly money and contracts to come back to reality, but there is a possibility this entire offseason is super inflated.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, IA Bean Counter said:

Brock -  there were 2 teams in on Correa.  You had the Twins at $285,  and then the Giants.  Boras told Giants $350 was the number they wanted,  65 million higher than the next higher offer.  Then used a like on a tweet from the Mets and likely a conversation with them to scare the Giants.   What this tells you is the Giants were serious about getting Correa and they were going to sign him hell or high water.   

As to historical,  I am ok with the Twins shooting to try to get superstars signed.  We won't get the deal done very often,  but I like to see them throw their hat in the ring.  It will continue to open up opportunities like Correa last year, even though I think that move set the organization back a year or two personally.  

This market has caught a lot of people off guard not the Twins.  Atlanta is looking stupid now for not getting a deal done with Dansby.  He will likely go for double what he was expected to go for at the beginning of the season.  

Look,  I think the Twins could have pivoted slightly earlier.  However,  there are very few other contracts I would rather have that have already been signed.  I am waiting for the silly money and contracts to come back to reality, but there is a possibility this entire offseason is super inflated.  

I don't even mind that they missed out on Correa, particularly at 13/$350m. What bugs the hell out of me is that they never even offered Turner money. They barely offered Boegarts money.

That wasn't going to get the job done and they should have known that. That's my real issue with the situation. I don't even know if I want Correa at 13/$350m. I probably don't. Not conceding to that demand is a perfectly rational decision.

But what would have happened had the Twins offered Correa $310m the day after Turner signed? Or even $301m? Either make a real offer or move on to other players, that's all I'm saying really.

[IA Bean Counter]

2 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don't even mind that they missed out on Correa, particularly at 13/$350m. What bugs the hell out of me is that they never even offered Turner money. They barely offered Boegarts money.

That wasn't going to get the job done and they should have known that. That's my real issue with the situation. I don't even know if I want Correa at 13/$350m. I probably don't. Not conceding to that demand is a perfectly rational decision.

But what would have happened had the Twins offered Correa $310m the day after Turner signed? Or even $301m? Either make a real offer or move on to other players, that's all I'm saying really.

If Turner is going to turn down $30 million extra from the Padres because he wanted to be on the east coast you think it would be smart to waste any time on Turner??   Bogaerts deal is just as crazy as Correa.  He is 3 years older,  and received a couple years less.  His contract was the contract that sent Correa's camp asking for the moon.   Its fairly obvious Swanson was the Twins second option to Correa.  Even still I agree with you I am not sure I want to spend the money on Swanson that it will take to get a deal done.  

Basically you think the Twins should have foresaw this market and just signed Correa last year to the 300 million he was asking for.  This seems to be bothering you much more than me obviously.  However,  I think rational thought is going out the door.  

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, IA Bean Counter said:

If Turner is going to turn down $30 million extra from the Padres because he wanted to be on the east coast you think it would be smart to waste any time on Turner??   Bogaerts deal is just as crazy as Correa.  He is 3 years older,  and received a couple years less.  His contract was the contract that sent Correa's camp asking for the moon.   Its fairly obvious Swanson was the Twins second option to Correa.  Even still I agree with you I am not sure I want to spend the money on Swanson that it will take to get a deal done.  

Basically you think the Twins should have foresaw this market and just signed Correa last year to the 300 million he was asking for.  This seems to be bothering you much more than me obviously.  However,  I think rational thought is going out the door.  

 

No, all I’m really saying is that they should have made an offer commensurate with the market - which was established when Turner signed and reinforced when deGrom, Verlander, Nimmo, Borgarts, etc signed - or moved on from Correa entirely.

There was no prediction to be made here. Ten players signed contracts that seemed borderline absurd. That’s what the market was and is right now. 

[Vanimal46]

After sleeping on it, I think now we wait out the free agent market for a few weeks. The market for Rodon is once again not what he’s looking for. Dansby Swanson is a good, not great player who just had a career year. 

The Twins are legitimately stuck right now. I saw locking in Correa in the same realm as the Machado signing for SD. Back when they had nothing going on, but he was the start of their foundation. 

I can now envision Falvey and Levine pivoting to punting on 2023… Selling off Mahle, Gray, and Maeda. 

[Vanimal46]

If Rodon or Swanson’s market still hasn’t materialized by January, call them up and offer the agreement Correa opted out of 2/$70

[Heistyman]

Team has too many holes to fill and/or question marks for this year, so I'd roll with Farmer and see if Lewis or Lee develop.  We need to trade some of our injury prone outfielders for gamers, maybe mid season moves to increase their value.  May want to move Polanco and Gray now for mlb ready talen but please no more injured Pitchers.  Crap I can't believe I'm leaning toward another rebuild.

[Riverbrian]

52 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

No, you're appealing to what you think is the voice of reason. Let's not conflate those two things.

This isn't the first time this front office has been blown out of the water by undercutting a free agent they were "supposedly" in deep with. It happened with Wheeler. It happened with Darvish. Both ended up signing for money that made the Twins' offer at the time look embarrassing. Now it has happened again with Correa.

This isn't a single data point. It has been happening damned near every offseason for the past five years. And at some point, it stops being an ugly coincidence and becomes an inherent failure of the front office's ability to read a market.

I gave them the benefit of the doubt year after year but enough is enough. They're still making the same mistakes they were making in 2018. I didn't turn on the front office then. I didn't even turn on them in 2021. But when the same mistakes keep happening over and over again, it's rather reasonable to say "they're not the right people for the job".

They didn't get Wheeler, They didn't get Darvish, They Didn't get Correa. They Got Cruz, They Got Donaldson, They Got Correa. Sounds a lot like the nature of free agency to me. At some point, someone puts down the paddle when bidding for that cat statue from Mesopotamia. You are displaying data points that would apply to every team unless you are the Mets who just get everybody they want according to social media.     

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, Riverbrian said:

They didn't get Wheeler, They didn't get Darvish, They Didn't get Correa. They Got Cruz, They Got Donaldson, They Got Correa. Sounds a lot like the nature of free agency to me.

Except there's something really different about those first three situations and those last three situations. I'm sure you can see it.

And my problem is that they only land the last three situations and even then, they still traded out from under Donaldson before the contract is up.

Wheeler was a long shot. No biggie there. But Darvish would have been huge on this team in 2019 and 2020, much less 21-22. But the Twins just wouldn't give that sixth year, which many people complained about and looks pretty foolish now.

This front office fears long-term deals far more than they like good players. I don't agree with that strategy, especially given how their books are nearly spotless right now. 

[DJL44]

13 hours ago, troyjuhn said:

Kyle Farmer is not a bad holdover to have at short, plus he's got position flexibility. I'd play him they're until Royce is ready to return, but having a player like Dansby would be ideal at short, though I'd much rather throw money at Rodon. 

He's not enough though. They still need someone else on the roster who can play SS in May.

[Minny505]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:49 AM, wsnydes said:

Personally, I'd prefer to fill from within but I'm not sure who that would be right away.  I'm hoping Lewis can eventually fill that void, but we don't know what his timeframe will be and you'll need someone there in the interim.  I can't see them promoting Lee that quickly.  Unless I'm forgetting about someone, none of the other in-house options excite me.  So, I'm kind of left with going after Dansby because I'm not sure that a trade is that realistic.

Some SS platoon trades might be available. Crawford from the Giants, Guillorme from the Mets, or Strott from the Phillies. Any of those platoons would project as a 2.5-3 WAR position.

Mateo on the Orioles is intriguing as well as they likely want to move Gunnar to SS.

I'm sure there are others that are an upgrade in some way to the position.

Any of these guys, if available, can likely be had at a decent exchange rate as well.

Guillorme would be my top target. A solid 28 year old SS that is clearly redundant on their roster except as insurance. He isn't likely to get many PAs and they could use both OF and pitching depth. A simple 1-for-1 swap of Kepler or Canterino might get it done.

 

[bloggymcbloggerson]

probably elvis andrus 

[GeorgiaBaller]

Swanson is a solid gold glover and his last 2 yrs at the plate square up with anyone.  He's developed a lot.  But--i like him low to mid 20's for 7-8 yrs.  If he wants to sign with the Cubs for 10 and squander his prime in a black hole with a terrible front office---let him go.  Oh, was I going on about the Cubs or the Twins there.....hmmmm

How many knee injuries has Lewis had now? does he still have the speed when he comes back?  I think he's a stud, but just like Kirilloff and Larnach, he can't be counted on until he can prove he can stay on the field.  Our best player is absent from class most of the season, too.  Swanson is durable, no injury history really and has good range.  he can help cover for spotty play at 3rd now.  

Sorry all, I'm just really disappointed---like most of you---at this swiss cheese lineup.  moldy cheese at that.  We are @ 30% on trades---@squirrel is way off on his analysis of that topic. So, i would rather sign a few free agents.  

if we get close to the season with no more signings, do me a favor, trade Bux so he doesn't have to stay through this mess--i like him--and we might get something for him.