Who's your SS now that Correa is a Giant?

[roger]

4 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Over/under: two of those three don’t pitch 100 innings this year, I’ve got the under. Which do you sign?  Btw, Gray is so mad he only gets 5 innings per start, he’s probably out of here anyway. 

That’s why I suggested they wait until late spring training to see about health.

[nicksaviking]

The 13 year Correa deal is ridiculous.

But now the Twins are desperate so I'm worried they're going to do something even more ridiculous for a more questionable player.

[bowserthedog]

I'd trade for that *South Korean* shortstop from the Padres.  He's very good defensively and if his power comes over the next two years they have a steal.  They can always flip him at some point in the future if Royce Lewis materializes. 

[DJL44]

3 minutes ago, bowserthedog said:

I'd trade for that Japanese shortstop from the Padres.

Kim is from South Korea.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

If the money could have been utilized better, it should have been spent two weeks ago. I'm just done with how this front office approaches offseasons.

I'm not sure it is the front office..... regardless of the GM, this team has never signed an elite free agent to a long term deal, other than Donaldson, who they traded after two years ....

As for SS? Whatever is cheapest and get Lee or Lewis up fast. Because eating playing time in a mediocre player won't help this team next year or in the future 

Farmer is the starter for me, at this point.

[bowserthedog]

6 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Kim is from South Korea.

My bad but I still think it's a viable option.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

12 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

The 13 year Correa deal is ridiculous.

But now the Twins are desperate so I'm worried they're going to do something even more ridiculous for a more questionable player.

It would be worse if it was ten and 350.....

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, Azviking101 said:

also next years FA class is supposed to be one of the worst we’ve seen in years. So if they haven’t spent this year they certainly won’t next year either

IDK about position players but the list of pitchers looks pretty deep.

Shohei Ohtani 
Julio Urias 
Lucas Giolito 
Frankie Montas
Aaron Nola 
Tyler Mahle 
Luis Severino 
Martin Perez
Sonny Gray 
Jack Flaherty
Blake Snell 
Brad Keller
Chris Flexen 
German Marquez  – $16MM club option with a $2.5MM buyout
Jakob Junis
John Means
Jordan Montgomery 
 

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

IDK about position players but the list of pitchers looks pretty deep.

Shohei Ohtani 
Julio Urias 
Lucas Giolito 
Frankie Montas
Aaron Nola 
Tyler Mahle 
Luis Severino 
Martin Perez
Sonny Gray 
Jack Flaherty
Blake Snell 
Brad Keller
Chris Flexen 
German Marquez  – $16MM club option with a $2.5MM buyout passed
Jakob Junis
John Means
Jordan Montgomery 
 

They passed on all the great pitchers last year...... Why would we think they'll sign one next year? 

[Major League Ready]

5 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

It would be worse if it was ten and 350.....

I doubt it will make any difference because the odds of Correa reaching 1 WAR player those last 3 years (age 39-41) are very low.  Heck, the last 5 years.  Miguel Cabrera had 5.1 WAR his age 33 season and never produced 1 WAR in his last 6 seasons.  Robinson Cano  a negative 2.5 WAR for his last 6 seasons where he never produced 1 WAR.   Robinson Cano had 6.8 WAR at age 33 and he slid to 1 WAR by age 36.  

[Vanimal46]

14 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

As for SS? Whatever is cheapest and get Lee or Lewis up fast. Because eating playing time in a mediocre player won't help this team next year or in the future 

You’re okay with Farmer being the starter until after the trade deadline? Lewis had surgery on June 22. Expecting anything before August is extremely optimistic. Likely unrealistic too. Brooks Lee has, what, 3 months as a professional baseball player? 

[Major League Ready]

10 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They passed on all the great pitchers last year...... Why would we think they'll sign one next year? 

The response was to someone suggesting the 2024 free agent class is terrible.  However, I think there are a couple reasons next year might be different. 

 1) Because they have 2 veteran pitchers that become free agents next year.  

2) Assuming they trade Kepler or don't pick-up his option, their payroll will be $110M if they sign a SP for $30M AAV and a RP for $10M AAV.  

3) This year's class had 3 really good SPs.  Two of them (Rodon/DeGrom) were very high risk.   

4) This year the top revenue teams had a ton of money to spend.  They can't do that every year.

5) A greater number of pitchers and less money available from the big markets helps our odds.

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, Major League Ready said:

1) Because they have 2 veteran pitchers that become free agents next year.  

2) Assuming they trade Kepler or don't pick-up his option, their payroll will be $110M if they sign a SP for $30M AAV and a RP for $10M AAV.  

They've signed one elite free agent to a long term deal in the history of the franchise, and he was traded after two years. What evidence is there that this isn't who they are? 

[Brock Beauchamp]

20 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They passed on all the great pitchers last year...... Why would we think they'll sign one next year? 

Yeah, exactly. They underbid Correa by $65m. Thinking they will even come close to signing someone like Ohtani seems insane at this point.

[IA Bean Counter]

2 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I just don't want Swanson at the money he's going to get.

Maybe try to trade with the Padres or Giants?

Mostly I'm frustrated. This front office is going to spend the next month finding less-optimal ways to spend a bunch of money and I'm just tired of it. They'll pivot and find a guy who fills a hole that didn't necessarily *need* to be filled. They'll spend the money but it will be over far fewer years than Correa and they'll pat themselves on the back for "keeping their options open".

Just turn in your Twins fandom card.  You can join the bandwagon of the Yankees, Padres Phillies or Astros.   This is no different than the last 40 years.  Essentially the definition of insanity,  expecting different results based off the same set of circumstances.  It will be difficult for the Twins to compete for World Series.  We need a lot of things to fall into place.  However if/when it happens makes it even sweeter.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, IA Bean Counter said:

Just turn in your Twins fandom card.  You can join the bandwagon of the Yankees, Padres Phillies or Astros.

[Major League Ready]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They've signed one elite free agent to a long term deal in the history of the franchise, and he was traded after two years. What evidence is there that this isn't who they are? 

You might be right and it's perfectly reasonable to wonder if this is simply their way.  Maybe they just won't do it.  However, I see a VERY different set of circumstances.  They will have virtually the entire roster filled with low cost players.  In previous years they were filling holes with players like Pineda, Schoop, etc.  Will they operate differently with a very different set of circumstances?  IDK, but that's what good management does ... They manage based on influential variables.   We will find out if this plays out the way it looks like at the moment.  

[IA Bean Counter]

1 minute ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Then what do you expect to change.  You are going to constantly be disappointed because the end results will vary rarely ever change.  Unless this is just you venting frustration I don't know what to say.  You have stated we should get different management,  while not acknowledging whether we could get better General manager or head coach.  You are throwing a pity party.  Yes what I was saying was in jest,  but come on pull up your big boy pants and lets move on.  If you can't reconcile that this is our team we are currently rooting for,  then you may be better off not letting it affect you.  

[Major League Ready]

4 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yeah, exactly. They underbid Correa by $65m. Thinking they will even come close to signing someone like Ohtani seems insane at this point.

I agree there is NO WAY they get Ohtani.  That leaves a dozen other very good free agents on the list?  How is the extremely  low probability they won't sign Ohtani relevant?  

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, Major League Ready said:

I agree there is NO WAY they get Ohtani.  That leaves a dozen other very good free agents on the list?  How is the extremely  low probability they won't sign Ohtani relevant?  

My point is that I'm now going to just assume they will not sign a $150m contract with anyone until they actually do so. We've been caught in this loop for four years now where we think the Twins have a shot at a good free agent and then we find out they weren't even in the running.

And the thing is that $150m doesn't even get you a special player in today's game. That's what "pretty good" players sign for now.

[chpettit19]

Farmer is the starting shortstop on opening day unless they can swing a trade for an Adames level SS. And if they're going to make a trade for someone like that they better have the extension ready and waiting for that SS to sign. No desire to bring in Kim or Andrus or Iglesias or any of the other non-star type shortstops thrown around on these threads. They already have that guy and his name is Kyle Farmer. No need to have 2 of him. I don't think Swanson is worth the money he'll get so, to me, it's Farmer to Lewis or Lee or make a huge trade that I don't think is available for them (trading top end prospects at this point would be a desperate, job saving type move that would destroy this team for another decade and I hope ownership has told them they're not allowed to trade any of their top guys).

Like others have said, I'm not as worried about who's playing SS specifically, just where they're going to find offense. There's a lot of people begging for more pitching when, to me, the offense is in far worse shape. Like bottom 5-8 in baseball levels. Buxton is a star, but will only play 80 games. Arraez is great at what he does, but only against righties and is very 1 dimensional (he's my favorite current Twin so don't yell at me, he just is who he is). Is Polanco on the decline or was he just hurt last year? Who is Miranda moving forward now that the league has data and video on him? This is when the challenge starts for him, adjust to the adjustments. Is there anyone else who even deserves to be discussed in the top 6 spots of a playoff offense?

Kirilloff should be, but he's, very unfortunately, landed in the "believe it when we see it" bucket with that wrist. Can't at all count on him during the offseason, and not make moves because of him being on your roster. Same with Larnach and Lewis. Gordon, Lee, Julien, and Wallner are way too unproven (Gordon less so, but I need more than half a season to count on him). Same with Martin. Kepler, Farmer, and the catchers are bottom 3rd of the order guys.  Celestino, Garlick, and Contreras wouldn't even be on my 40-man, let alone 26-man.

To me, the Twins have 3 spots in the top 6 in the order locked down (half guy for Buxton and half guy for Miranda, plus Arraez and Polanco). I think they need 3 more bats. I don't care what position they play, but, if you're trying to compete in 2023, they need to improve on 3 guys pretty significantly. I just don't know how to do that since there's very few FAs left that would really help, and I want no part of trading prospects at this point since there's so many question marks to fill. Feels like it's time to turn it over to the young guns and form the new core. Not sure I want this FO running this re-tool, re-build, re-whatever you want to call it after the last couple years, though.

[Mike Sixel]

7 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

You might be right and it's perfectly reasonable to wonder if this is simply their way.  Maybe they just won't do it.  However, I see a VERY different set of circumstances.  They will have virtually the entire roster filled with low cost players.  In previous years they were filling holes with players like Pineda, Schoop, etc.  Will they operate differently with a very different set of circumstances?  IDK, but that's what good management does ... They manage based on influential variables.   We will find out if this plays out the way it looks like at the moment.  

That's what you said last year, and this year. I bought it. Now? I don't buy it. They'd rather trade prospects for guys with two years left on their deals. Year after year, because they won't sign pitchers. Which, alas, is what I've been saying they have to do. At some point, you run out of prospects....

[WhenWillWeBeatNY]

Sign Jose Iglesias. Probably would be able to give him a one year deal and he’s 32 but his stats aren’t horrible. Might be able to add a little bit more leadership in the clubhouse as well. 

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, WhenWillWeBeatNY said:

Sign Jose Iglesias. Probably would be able to give him a one year deal and he’s 32 but his stats aren’t horrible. Might be able to add a little bit more leadership in the clubhouse as well. 

Why? They have Farmer. What does Iglesias do?

[Brock Beauchamp]

10 minutes ago, IA Bean Counter said:

Then what do you expect to change.  You are going to constantly be disappointed because the end results will vary rarely ever change.  Unless this is just you venting frustration I don't know what to say.  You have stated we should get different management,  while not acknowledging whether we could get better General manager or head coach.  You are throwing a pity party.  Yes what I was saying was in jest,  but come on pull up your big boy pants and lets move on.  If you can't reconcile that this is our team we are currently rooting for,  then you may be better off not letting it affect you.  

What I expect to change is for the front office to better manage an offseason.

And that's a pretty reasonable request. If they weren't going to offer Correa the money required to sign him, they should have been signing other players with that money two weeks ago. Instead, we see a situation where most of the desirable players are now off the market and the Twins roster looks mediocre, at best.

And that's some pretty bad offseason management.

[WhenWillWeBeatNY]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why? They have Farmer. What does Iglesias do?

Farmer is a play for depth. Iglesias is an actual everyday SS. 

[IA Bean Counter]

5 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I agree there is NO WAY they get Ohtani.  That leaves a dozen other very good free agents on the list?  How is the extremely  low probability they won't sign Ohtani relevant?  

He very clearly thinks its only successful if you sign the players.  I still think there is a possibility this offseason could still come out as a success, but I will admit I am disappointed on not getting Correa.  I am curious to see what type of contract Swanson and or Correa get and if we are able to get 1 of them.  I could see Swanson giving more WAR than Correa over the life of both of their contracts.  I have a concern that Correa's back will become a bigger issue in future years.  Swanson's bat seems to be getting stronger.  He seems similar to me to a player like Dozier.  I think Swanson could have a nice 3-4 year set of seasons before beginning to tail off.  

[IA Bean Counter]

2 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

What I expect to change is for the front office to better manage an offseason.

And that's a pretty reasonable request. If they weren't going to offer Correa the money required to sign him, they should have been signing other players with that money two weeks ago. Instead, we see a situation where most of the desirable players are now off the market and the Twins roster looks mediocre, at best.

And that's some pretty bad offseason management.

How can they better manage an offseason if they will never may able to sign a top tier free agent?  That is essentially the definition you have given of a successful season.  Which other players and contracts would you rather have,  because the majority of them have been major overpays by all the big market teams.  

[Parfigliano]

2 hours ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

The offensive downgrade is the elephant in the room that we have to acknowledge. We've lost Correa and Urshela from a lineup that was already one or two bats short. Farmer, Kepler and the Catching tandem are the 7-9 hitters based on their track record. Polanco, Arraez and Buxton can be 3 of the top 6 hitters but who are the other 3? Right now we're banking on some combination of Miranda, Laranch, Gordon, Kirilloff, Wallner and ???? We're in some real offensive trouble here and I don't see a free agent to solve those woes (maybe Benintendi?).

Things are looking pretty bleak on the offensive side of the  ball. Maybe Kepler hits .260 with 20 HRs now that there's no shift? Maybe Buxton plays in 120-140 games and hits 35 HRs with a .900 plus OPS? Maybe Miranda hits .275 with 25 HRs and an .850 plus OPS? I'd love something like that to happen but it's very unlikely. 

We need a bat and we need one bad. Don't think we'll get one. This could get ugly. 

Call me crazy but Im not seeing that as unrealistic for Miranda.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, IA Bean Counter said:

How can they better manage an offseason if they will never may able to sign a top tier free agent?  That is essentially the definition you have given of a successful season.  Which other players and contracts would you rather have,  because the majority of them have been major overpays by all the big market teams.  

I've brought up Willson Contreras multiple times. He's not my first choice but if the front office had been honest with itself and realized they weren't going to offer Correa enough money, he'd be a pretty good fit on this roster, which really needs some bats.