No More Half Measures: Twins Must Commit to Uncomfortable Winter

[dex8425]

8 minutes ago, Beast said:

You think the Phillies’ fans would trade places with Twins’ fans?  Lol.  No way.  Add the Angels to that list.  Probably even the Rangers.

Their FOs are aggressive and give fans hope.  The Angels currently have arguably 2 of the 3 best players on the planet.  The Rangers are signing everybody.  It would be fun as hell.  Nobody cares about squeaking out the worst division in baseball and getting absolutely pulverized out of the playoffs.

2 of the last 3 you mentioned have won the World Series more recently.  All have won a playoff game more recently.

Nobody on the planet is envious of Twins’ fans, dude.  We’re thought of in the same category as the Pirates, Royals, etc.  Cannon fodder for teams that invest in their players.

The Royals went to TWO world series in the last decade and won one. Nobody even thinks about the Twins other than Minnesotans. "Does Joe Mauer still play there?" So yeah, Pirates, Reds, Rockies, Mariners are similar. 

[weitz41]

There are so many unknowns with the guys on the 40-man roster due to injuries last season and youth. I don't see how throwing piles of cash or long-term contracts at anything other than SS would make any sense at all.

If by uncomfortable you mean 10 years of Correa at whatever it takes, I agree 100% But if by half measures you mean backup catcher, starting pitching depth, bull pen and maybe a right-handed outfielder. I disagree. 100%

[TwinsChupacabra]

I agree with the main idea behind the article.  The Twins are sinking fast and need to pick it up in many ways.  

However. I don't agree with the need to sign Correa.  I think signing him would make things worse.  If they sign him, there's little money for anything else.  Then there's the for-certain back end of the contract disaster.  All this for a 60 RBI guy who didn't make a significant difference until the end of the year when the Twins were already out of it. When it mattered, his clutch hitting was terrible.   But even if he plays great, teams can simply pitch around him.  Filling one position hole, with so many others in need will not solve all the problems.  And as stated earlier, his signing by itself won't do much for attendance.

I think most Twins fans have lost that new season optimism that usually most baseball fans have to begin a fresh season.  They know it will be just more of the same crap.  

They could start by admitting the front office and especially manager didn't get it done, and please, please, please, start over.   

Fans over time have accepted low expectations, but they don't like hopelessness. 

[Nash Walker]

5 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

The opening sentence is not accurate.  Both total attendance and per game attendance were lower in 2021 then they were in 2022.

We can discuss the reasons for that, but I do not believe the on-field product is completely to blame for the lower numbers.  Some context is warranted.

 

I fixed to say non-pandemic year. Attendance was on capacity for a period in 2021. 

[TNTwinsFan]

8 hours ago, Minny505 said:

Why full stop? Getting Rodon would be just as, if not more, valuable.

Correa to the Giants means Crawford is available to be traded for by the Twins. A SS platoon of Crawford and Farmer is projected to be about 3 WAR for $14mil for one season. Correa would be better, but would cost twice as much and would be a 10yr commitment. The gap for 2023 is less than 2 WAR.

Rodon is replacing Ober, 1 WAR pitcher. Rodon is projected to be just as valuable as Correa, but he makes up a gap of 3+ wins. 

For roughly the same amount of money, but for half the years, the Twins can improve by about 2 more WAR by signing Rodon instead of Correa. Those 2 wins are valuable.

I will half agree with you and say the Twins need to sign Correa OR Rodon, full stop. That does need to happen. 

But Correa is not the only answer here...and he may not even be the best.

Not full stop as in no more signings. Full stop as in get him signed.

[theBOMisthebomb]

4 hours ago, dex8425 said:

The Royals went to TWO world series in the last decade and won one. Nobody even thinks about the Twins other than Minnesotans. "Does Joe Mauer still play there?" So yeah, Pirates, Reds, Rockies, Mariners are similar. 

Yes, no other fan base in major sports leagues has any envy for anything that Twins fans have. The Twins are nonthreatening and innocuous to other fan bases. I'm of the belief that no other fan base wants what the Twins have. Yeah, the Twins have a nice, underrated, somewhat unknown jewel of a ballpark. That's about it. I came to grips with this after the Gardy era - I don't ever expect the Twins to compete in the postseason and I just enjoy the games detached from results. Simply enjoy the game and Target Field when I am there. Maybe someday we'll get pleasantly surprised with something than a Central title or getting swept in the first round of the playoffs - I'm not holding out any hope or expectations, again just enjoying the journey and the regular season ride. I wish I had higher expectations, I just don't to keep my sanity and interest. 

[MABB1959]

13 hours ago, Mark G said:

I concur pretty much across the board.

When I was young, I would go to 8 - 10 games a year pretty regularly.  Back then I knew the team, I knew who was going to play that day, who was going to pitch, and unless they got bombed early, they would be in the game quite a while.  Today I have no idea who is going to play today, where each player will be on the field or in the lineup, how long the starter will last, and how many RP's are going to go in and out.  If I am going to watch a team of 20 or so players go around like musical chairs, with certain players left out on any given day, I will do it from my living room with remote in hand.  I love the sport, more than any other (well, I do like pro bowling a lot too, but I digress), but I am only willing to pay the prices they charge for virtually everything if I genuinely think I know what I am paying for.  And I just don't know those things anymore, so I watch from my couch and I have become the best arm chair manager in town.  Ask anyone.  ?

1,000,000% agree.  Went to a game vs Houston, spent about $300 so excited to see Correa even bought my grandson a Correa jersey and HE DID NOT PLAY!   Absolutely no consistent line-up for the last few years.  That and no Bally’s on DishTv makes it hard to get to know and love your team.  

[SwainZag]

3 hours ago, MABB1959 said:

1,000,000% agree.  Went to a game vs Houston, spent about $300 so excited to see Correa even bought my grandson a Correa jersey and HE DID NOT PLAY!   Absolutely no consistent line-up for the last few years.  That and no Bally’s on DishTv makes it hard to get to know and love your team.  

Correa was hit by a pitch on May 5th and broke a finger in his hand, which kept him out until May 18th.  I am guessing the games you referenced was during the Astros series of May 10-12.  Complain about Rocco and the lineup all you want, but come on, he was hurt and on the IL.  It sucks you and the grandson didn't get to see him play but that's not on "in-consistent lineups."  The man was injured.  Unless you bought you ticket last minute, you should have known good and well that he wouldn't be in the lineup that day.

[Mark G]

1 hour ago, SwainZag said:

Correa was hit by a pitch on May 5th and broke a finger in his hand, which kept him out until May 18th.  I am guessing the games you referenced was during the Astros series of May 10-12.  Complain about Rocco and the lineup all you want, but come on, he was hurt and on the IL.  It sucks you and the grandson didn't get to see him play but that's not on "in-consistent lineups."  The man was injured.  Unless you bought you ticket last minute, you should have known good and well that he wouldn't be in the lineup that day.

It strikes me as a kind of macro vs. micro discussion.  On the micro side, that is true, he was hurt and missed time, including that series.  On the macro side, it is easy to forget, sometimes, who is hurt and who is not.  And it doesn't change the overall frustration with trying to figure out who you are going to see on any given day based on Rocco's version of a rotation.  His rotations take into account injuries, but also are simply his mindset, which is frustrating to try and figure out; hence the decisions fans like me make to simply not try buying tickets when you can watch on TV and not necessarily care who plays that day.  It is just an overall theory on one factor that may be affecting attendance.  

[Riverbrian]

22 hours ago, Nash Walker said:

 

It’s not always wise to judge fan morale from social media. If we did, though, it’d be easy to see that Twins Territory is unhappy with the current product. Why wouldn’t they be?

I can't thing of anything that social media is happy about. Didn't find it here. I'll have to look elsewhere. 

[theBOMisthebomb]

4 hours ago, Mark G said:

It strikes me as a kind of macro vs. micro discussion.  On the micro side, that is true, he was hurt and missed time, including that series.  On the macro side, it is easy to forget, sometimes, who is hurt and who is not.  And it doesn't change the overall frustration with trying to figure out who you are going to see on any given day based on Rocco's version of a rotation.  His rotations take into account injuries, but also are simply his mindset, which is frustrating to try and figure out; hence the decisions fans like me make to simply not try buying tickets when you can watch on TV and not necessarily care who plays that day.  It is just an overall theory on one factor that may be affecting attendance.  

Old man yells at cloud then tries to slide step and talk his way out of the rant. I'm not trying to be harsh, yet doubling down after getting called out like that is just an even worse look. I will grant that the Buxton load management days were annoying and bad strategy at times (at least to an outsider). Correa played 136 games in 2022. With the exception of Buxton, who did you want Rocco to play more often in 2022? Looking at Baseball Reference and games played in 2022, I can't see anything from the position players, other than Buxton, to complain about. Games played in 2022: Arraez  and Urshela 144, Gordon 136, Sanchez 128, Miranda 125, Celestino 122, Kepler 115, Polanco 104, and Buxton 102. If anything, I would have enjoyed seeing Gordon and Celestino play fewer games. You talk about rotations - did you mean starting pitching rotations or lineups? It sounds like you meant lineup not starting rotation so that's confusing. Rocco's starting pitching rotation was a bit perplexing as he'd mix in an extra day off when he could do that could throw off things. His bullpen usage was maddening along with pulling starters consistently after 4-5 innings. I'm guessing you didn't show at Target Field to watch any of the members of the Twins 2022 staff. Rocco isn't above criticism for player management, I'll grant that to you. Though for a player to be on the IL and you miss that piece of information is on you. 

[Mark G]

8 hours ago, theBOMisthebomb said:

Old man yells at cloud then tries to slide step and talk his way out of the rant. I'm not trying to be harsh, yet doubling down after getting called out like that is just an even worse look. I will grant that the Buxton load management days were annoying and bad strategy at times (at least to an outsider). Correa played 136 games in 2022. With the exception of Buxton, who did you want Rocco to play more often in 2022? Looking at Baseball Reference and games played in 2022, I can't see anything from the position players, other than Buxton, to complain about. Games played in 2022: Arraez  and Urshela 144, Gordon 136, Sanchez 128, Miranda 125, Celestino 122, Kepler 115, Polanco 104, and Buxton 102. If anything, I would have enjoyed seeing Gordon and Celestino play fewer games. You talk about rotations - did you mean starting pitching rotations or lineups? It sounds like you meant lineup not starting rotation so that's confusing. Rocco's starting pitching rotation was a bit perplexing as he'd mix in an extra day off when he could do that could throw off things. His bullpen usage was maddening along with pulling starters consistently after 4-5 innings. I'm guessing you didn't show at Target Field to watch any of the members of the Twins 2022 staff. Rocco isn't above criticism for player management, I'll grant that to you. Though for a player to be on the IL and you miss that piece of information is on you. 

I guess that old man you refer to must be me.  ?

Because I am old enough to say when no player has more games played than 144, and the Gordon's and Celestino's were in almost that many as well, we must just look at the game differently.  And it is probably because "played", in my day (and still in my mind) does not include DHing and pinch hitting; it means starting at a position and "playing" the game (Buck, for instance, only played the field 58 times according to the stats I found).   As for the concept of rotation, it simply looks to an outsider looking in, and I am FAR from the only one who sees it this way, that the rotation, per se, is rotating days off or rotating DH's so that all the players "play" as many games as possible and distribute at bats.  It is few of the non pitchers playing the position they are best at every game, and utility players subbing when a pitching match up might be bad, or if a starter is hurt, but "flexibility" ruling and most players playing multiple positions, including ones they have little experience in.  I don't know, maybe it is just each persons internal definition of the word rotation, but moving players around from game to game, in and out of the line up or, again, having rotating DH's, is to me......well........a rotation of sorts.  Do we look at the game so differently, or is it just a debate over semantics?  

(And you couldn't be more right on how he works pitchers) ?

And you were right on this as well; I didn't show at Target Field to watch, because they are simply not fun enough to watch for the prices you pay for everything from tickets to a bag of peanuts.  Doesn't mean I don't watch, though, and I follow pretty closely.  For decades I watched far more often from the stands instead of the couch, because it was fun to watch from there; can't say that now.  If that is doubling down, does this mean I am tripling down?  ?

And you're not harsh; we just look at it differently it appears.  I know you are far from alone in how you view it, and I also know I am far from alone in how I do.  Hence the fact 1.8+ mil showed up, but that's all.  Just my extremely humble observation.  

[theBOMisthebomb]

52 minutes ago, Mark G said:

I guess that old man you refer to must be me.  ?

Because I am old enough to say when no player has more games played than 144, and the Gordon's and Celestino's were in almost that many as well, we must just look at the game differently.  And it is probably because "played", in my day (and still in my mind) does not include DHing and pinch hitting; it means starting at a position and "playing" the game (Buck, for instance, only played the field 58 times according to the stats I found).   As for the concept of rotation, it simply looks to an outsider looking in, and I am FAR from the only one who sees it this way, that the rotation, per se, is rotating days off or rotating DH's so that all the players "play" as many games as possible and distribute at bats.  It is few of the non pitchers playing the position they are best at every game, and utility players subbing when a pitching match up might be bad, or if a starter is hurt, but "flexibility" ruling and most players playing multiple positions, including ones they have little experience in.  I don't know, maybe it is just each persons internal definition of the word rotation, but moving players around from game to game, in and out of the line up or, again, having rotating DH's, is to me......well........a rotation of sorts.  Do we look at the game so differently, or is it just a debate over semantics?  

(And you couldn't be more right on how he works pitchers) ?

And you were right on this as well; I didn't show at Target Field to watch, because they are simply not fun enough to watch for the prices you pay for everything from tickets to a bag of peanuts.  Doesn't mean I don't watch, though, and I follow pretty closely.  For decades I watched far more often from the stands instead of the couch, because it was fun to watch from there; can't say that now.  If that is doubling down, does this mean I am tripling down?  ?

And you're not harsh; we just look at it differently it appears.  I know you are far from alone in how you view it, and I also know I am far from alone in how I do.  Hence the fact 1.8+ mil showed up, but that's all.  Just my extremely humble observation.  

I'm not certain what this rant is all about. You were called out for whining about Correa not playing when he was on the IL. You could have checked the internet before the Astros game in June for injuries. Now, six months later you were caught embellishing and don't want to admit it and refuse to eat crow. 

I showed the number of games played and you go on some tangent about what games played means to you. 

I don't care if you don't like to go to the games. You opened the going to games conversation. I could show you multiple ways to drastically cut costs at a game. I'm guessing it's more fun to whine about it. And, of course, you USED to go to so many games back in the good ol' days... of course you did. 

 I humbly wish to remove myself from this conversation. I'm hopeful your profession was attorney because you are skilled at redirection and avoiding the topic. 

[Mark G]

8 minutes ago, theBOMisthebomb said:

I'm not certain what this rant is all about. You were called out for whining about Correa not playing when he was on the IL. You could have checked the internet before the Astros game in June for injuries. Now, six months later you were caught embellishing and don't want to admit it and refuse to eat crow. 

I showed the number of games played and you go on some tangent about what games played means to you. 

I don't care if you don't like to go to the games. You opened the going to games conversation. I could show you multiple ways to drastically cut costs at a game. I'm guessing it's more fun to whine about it. And, of course, you USED to go to so many games back in the good ol' days... of course you did. 

 I humbly wish to remove myself from this conversation. I'm hopeful your profession was attorney because you are skilled at redirection and avoiding the topic. 

Damn, my friend, you better check the posts more carefully from now on.  I was not the one who posted about Correa, I simply put in a post saying maybe he didn't know or forgot.  I was wrong about you not being harsh; it is I who should humbly remove myself from this until you get your posts straight.  And possibly a new attitude.  Take care, my friend.  

[JD-TWINS]

On 12/9/2022 at 11:49 AM, roger said:

Count me among those who will be encouraged when Boras announces Correa has signed and it is not with the Twins.  I am comfortable with Farmer manning short until Lewis returns, hopefully, sometime in June.  Have always believed in Lewis becoming a star and his brief stint last year sure as heck confirmed that belief.  Thus, have zero interest in signing Correa to a 10-year deal which will destroy this team in the late 2020's, just when all these young kids need to be signed to extensions to keep the gang together. 

The needs I see are a better than Jeffers catcher and one good late inning reliever.  I believe with a bit of luck health wise the Twins can compete to win the Central and be competitive in the playoffs.  As for the starting staff, I will repeat my belief that I don't care about an ACE.  Give me three very good #2-#3 starters to make the next three starts and the Twins will win a lot of games.  All indications are they have three, if not four, good #2/#3 arms.

I like the catcher acquisition move - almost a necessity. I agree on the no Correa signing strategy & use Farmer as long as it takes to get him me if our farm guys ready to play - we have 3 prospects. I like Lewis as well but not sold on his ability to cover ground as a shortstop, everyday, after 2nd knee surgery. Lewis or somebody will be ready by sometime in ‘24, hopefully sooner. I live in Cincinnati - Farmer is fine! Completely agree on the back end need in bullpen!!

They need to sign Bassitt for 3 yrs. @ $23 million/yr…….don’t love Maeda as a starter when we have plenty of money to sign an additional #2-#3 guy in Bassitt.? Maeda really puts a shine on our bullpen as well!!

$23 on SP - $8 on RP - $6 or so on catcher…….extend Gray & give him 2 more years at an additional $5 million/yr……..extend Maeda as soon as possible (June) if he’s back to near normal & pay him well w/o all the incentives.

W/o Correa’s contract we could pay Mahle going forward if he performs as well.

[roger]

On 12/9/2022 at 11:05 PM, MABB1959 said:

1,000,000% agree.  Went to a game vs Houston, spent about $300 so excited to see Correa even bought my grandson a Correa jersey and HE DID NOT PLAY!   Absolutely no consistent line-up for the last few years.  That and no Bally’s on DishTv makes it hard to get to know and love your team.  

I expect not having the Twins on most tv’s has been a bigger factor in interest in the Twins than most realize.  Although there is a deal for hockey and bball for the streaming service, still nothing for the Twins, right?