Why Can't the Twins Spend Like the Padres?

[nicksaviking]

Last I was aware winning the lowly AL Central doesn’t win a WS trophy, so I have no idea why they’d measure themselves against their division mates.

And they have no one to blame but themselves for their TV deal. They tried that misguided Twins TV or whatever it was with no marketable content other than the baseball games and no broadcast commitments from the most needed providers in their market. Then they were forced to crawl back to FSN and beg for scraps. 
 

They better have learned from that. Learned A LOT.

[USAFChief]

55 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

 

Are you under the impression that I don't believe that teams can spend more and develop at the same time? 

Since you're arguing in this thread against spending like the Padres to avoid the inevitable crash, arguing the Padres haven't been successful, and want "development front and center," yes. How else would I take that? 

 

 

 

[Aggies7]

6 hours ago, SanoMustGo said:

Question is, are the Twins doing a good job of developing players?  If you have good development, then you fill in the gaps with trades/FA.  I'm going out on a limb and say if this season is like the last 2, we go full rebuild.  Also can't have more of your productive roster on the IL than on the field.  We have a few top prospects who are probably at a cross roads. 

twins farm system rankings have absolutely tanked over the last few seasons, so that route isn’t looking so great. 

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, theBOMisthebomb said:

Man... I'd take 30 years of constant rubble for another World Series championship. I watch these other fan bases and the ride to a championship and I'm just so dang jealous. 

We’re kind of living that now though aren’t we? 31 years to be exact. I don’t count setting playoff loss records are much more than rubble, especially in the increasingly watered down playoff system 

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, Len1Twinfan said:

Why Can't the Twins Spend Like the Padres?

Because they aren't a bunch of drunken sailors????

 

You'd rather the owner keep the money, and not pay players? 

[Mark G]

 "Minnesota's TV deal is hampering some of its revenues, but they are spending more than enough to be competitive in the AL Central."

I don't know about y'all, but as long as we stay "competitive" in what some would call the weakest division in MLB, I'm a happy man.  ? 

[theBOMisthebomb]

6 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

We’re kind of living that now though aren’t we? 31 years to be exact. I don’t count setting playoff loss records are much more than rubble, especially in the increasingly watered down playoff system 

Yes, that was the reason I used the 30 years. The Twins haven't been relevant as a World Series contender that entire thirty years. There were a few nice Gardy era teams and the 2019 regular season was a blast to witness. Of course, it's all been capped off by getting swept or going out meekly in the first round of the playoffs with the exception of the first Gardy era playoff appearance. Target Field has become a moribund experience despite its beauty, evidenced by the poor attendance in 2022. Yes, the new uniforms are interesting and a slight distraction. If that's all Twins fans have to look forward to, it's no wonder only the diehards remain at Target Field. 

I'm not a Twins doomsday person and will always attend the games. I honestly can't see why a casual fan would have any real motivation to attend a game. The Twins pulling a San Diego and breaking the bank and really going for it would be a nice change. If not, we are looking at the next 30 years as a repeat of this most recent 30 years.  

[Karbo]

15 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Who made the sorry Twins tv deal 11 years ago? Don't you folks in Minnesota watch tv? 

11 years ago it didn't look like a bad deal.

[old nurse]

The 20% stake in the sports network must have an impact on the cash flow   The reality is as a private business we have no idea what the profit is. Everybody claims to know revenue yet with revenue sharing and the rules aligned with that, again not really revenue=how much the team can spend

[Riverbrian]

7 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Since you're arguing in this thread against spending like the Padres to avoid the inevitable crash, arguing the Padres haven't been successful, and want "development front and center," yes. How else would I take that? 

 

 

 

That's kind of insulting.

Let me squeeze into this elementary school sized desk so I may learn. Are you telling me that it's possible to have a productive farm system and spend in free agency? Please go on. 

Can you also go over the H and the C on the taps. Can I turn on both of them at the same time? I'm tired of burning my hands when washing them.

I'll need a refresher on why we platoon if you don't mind. 

Anyway... Thank You. The Padres have obviously figured it out.

If the Twins would just do the same thing we could start planning the parade. I understand this now. Thank you again. 

 

 

[mikelink45]

In the 2000's both teams have been to the same number of World Series!  Their last 1998, ours 1991.  But at least they won some playoff games!  Spending is not the key, building a team is. 

[MABB1959]

1 hour ago, Karbo said:

11 years ago it didn't look like a bad deal.

If I remember right people were in an uproar.  It is now worse because of Bally's.  No reason they can't strike a deal with a local station to give all Minnesotan's the ability to watch the Twins.  I think it is important that the fans can get to know their team.  

[MABB1959]

9 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

twins farm system rankings have absolutely tanked over the last few seasons, so that route isn’t looking so great. 

 Even if the rankings were higher the training staff and coaching never seems to develop.  I think they leave them in the minors too long and if we do get a player they are likely to be traded away.  

[MABB1959]

5 hours ago, Mark G said:

 "Minnesota's TV deal is hampering some of its revenues, but they are spending more than enough to be competitive in the AL Central."

I don't know about y'all, but as long as we stay "competitive" in what some would call the weakest division in MLB, I'm a happy man.  ? 

Being competitive in the ALC doesn't get them very far into the playoffs.  They are always one and done and that is what I consider complete failure.

[MABB1959]

13 hours ago, se7799 said:

I honestly think a good thread on here would be... who of us die hard fans pay to watch our Twins on TV.  I'm out of market..so I pay up for the mlb network. I also purchase merchandise and attend spring traing. Probably an unpopular opinion here...but feels like many on here are unwilling to spend to watch our team either on tv or in person..but like to bemoan about our lower payroll.  Either support the team or dont..I'm ok either way.  But if folks are unwilling to spend for tickets or TV access then please don't complain about payroll

I spent about $300 to attend one game.  I bought a Correa jersey for my grandson.  I do not have the ability to watch on TV.  If there were a streaming package to purchase, I would do that.  They need to invest get the things you mention.  We need to have a stable line and stop trading the good players. Imagine what it would be like if they were able to send out Cruz, Donaldson, Correa and Buxton every game and look forward to the day Berrio's pitches. I remember the days when we got to know and love the team by seeing the same players for most of the season.  Watching them now is very much like watching the visiting team.  

[RJA]

Boy, hot topic!  The Pohlads are worth at least 3.8 billion, so they could supplement the payroll by 50 million a year with zero problem.  So, the answer is, the Twins can be like the Padres but the Pohlads choose not to spend the money.  Now some say they shouldn't, that they should run the baseball team like any other business.  Others say baseball is a different animal, and that stadiums subsidize billionaires so they should loosen their pocketbooks.  I fall into the latter camp but respect that others reasonably believe the former.  Success on the field is a combination of player development and payroll budgets.  While the Guardians and Rays are examples of teams who have had some success with low payrolls, nobody can argue that larger budgets are not tied to more success.  While small market teams can make a run based only on player development (like the Royals did),  the big spenders--like the Dodgers, Astros, Mets, Yankees, Philly, etc.--tend to do better over the long haul.  This does not mean "spending money like a drunken sailor" is the way to go, but when a team has some young talent, spending money to get them over the hump makes loads of sense. My frustration with this FO is that they are constipated in their decision making--missing out on a lot of free agent pitchers, and thereby having to dumpster dive by adding Shoemaker, Happ, Bundy, Archer, Bailey, etc.  Is there risk in adding a long term free agent pitcher, yes.  Is there risk in not doing so, yes.  It is just a question of which risk you want to assume.  I just wish our FO and ownership opted for the latter risk more often.

[rv78]

One of the reasons the Twins organization used to get Target Field built was so they would be able to spend big on top Free Agents with the added revenue it was going to provide. Outside of Correa dropping into their lap last season they have done nothing to fill that promise. Back in the Puckett era, I know there was at least 1 season where the Twins drew 3 million fans. In 2022 it was about half that. If you draw another 1 million by having a winning team won't that increase your revenue? If each fan spends $50 for a ticket and another $30 for concessions and memorabilia wouldn't those same 1 million extra fans generate about $80M more in revenue? It would probably be more. There's a saying that's been around for a very long time...... Sometimes you get what you pay for. Now add a good TV contract in the very near future and there will only be one reason why the Twins can't spend. They aren't committed to winning. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

11 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Pohlad companies had an ownership stake in FSN (going back to the MSC days) that I assume they retained through the Sinclair transition.

I believe the cruddy TV deal doesn’t  bring the full Pohlad view into scope because different parts of their companies have the stake. I believe Joe coming from media may have had something to do w/ the FSN ownership management. 

Hmmmmmmm.

[old nurse]

11 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

twins farm system rankings have absolutely tanked over the last few seasons, so that route isn’t looking so great. 

Prove farm system rankings mean anything. In the recent ruleV draft there were many top 30 prospects of organizations available. 15 players were taken, only 2 were top 30 prospects.  Clearly prospect rankings did not mean much to front offices and scouting. 

[mwmarkland]

I'm sure someone else has raised this topic, but shouldn't we consider the fact that it isn't just about how much the Twins are willing or able to spend? These contracts represent people, and as we have seen people make choices. I think we have to be realistic that if the Twins have a matching offer to a free agent with San Diego, then the person is going to look at other things besides money. And how often does MN/St. Paul win those battles?

I feel positive in that I believe we are seeing the Twins get to the point where they are competing on the money side for at least some players. After the money, though, the player has to make a choice.

 

[wsnydes]

7 minutes ago, mwmarkland said:

I'm sure someone else has raised this topic, but shouldn't we consider the fact that it isn't just about how much the Twins are willing or able to spend? These contracts represent people, and as we have seen people make choices. I think we have to be realistic that if the Twins have a matching offer to a free agent with San Diego, then the person is going to look at other things besides money. And how often does MN/St. Paul win those battles?

I feel positive in that I believe we are seeing the Twins get to the point where they are competing on the money side for at least some players. After the money, though, the player has to make a choice.

 

Solid first post!  Welcome to TD!

[Riverbrian]

45 minutes ago, mwmarkland said:

I'm sure someone else has raised this topic, but shouldn't we consider the fact that it isn't just about how much the Twins are willing or able to spend? These contracts represent people, and as we have seen people make choices. I think we have to be realistic that if the Twins have a matching offer to a free agent with San Diego, then the person is going to look at other things besides money. And how often does MN/St. Paul win those battles?

I feel positive in that I believe we are seeing the Twins get to the point where they are competing on the money side for at least some players. After the money, though, the player has to make a choice.

 

Agreed. It's not like buying a can of soup at the souper market. 

[Aggies7]

2 hours ago, old nurse said:

Prove farm system rankings mean anything. In the recent ruleV draft there were many top 30 prospects of organizations available. 15 players were taken, only 2 were top 30 prospects.  Clearly prospect rankings did not mean much to front offices and scouting. 

I’m not saying they mean everything, but we’ve lost several guys who helped us get a high ranking and several others have disappointed.
 

We seem to have a serious problem in player development throughout the system. Guys showing up to the ML club lacking basic fundamentals of the game. Doesn’t bode well for player development in the near future 

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

22 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I agree that the Padres payroll aggressiveness is odd in comparison with their peers. 

However, there a few things to consider.

1. Payroll has only gone up in the past two years. Payroll was unimpressive prior.  

2. Once you drain the farm and they drained the farm with the Soto trade. If you want to improve the club with no farm. You have nobody to call up and nobody to trade. That leaves one option... spend even more money. The Padres just might be in that boat at the moment. 

3. The window is closing fast so maybe this is the final push in. There is a large line of players hitting the exit doors next year. Machado has an opt-out, Darvish, Snell, Hader will be free agents. Soto is a free agent the year after that. 

Farm has to be rebuilt, trades difficult with big contracts and no prospects to offer, Darvish, Snell, Hader need more money to stay, Arb Raises for others.

The question is this: Can the Padres keep playing this big money game into the future when increasing it is the only way to sustain it.

We will have to wait and see... but for those who want to simplify the discussion by saying it's an owner that is willing to spend and drop the mic.

There are other things to consider. 

 

I recall Steinbrenner getting into this situation.  He'd always spend tons of $ on FA's and prospect capital on trades for veterans only to have an empty farm system.  Over the years, they have balanced this out to where Cashman maintains the flow of prospects while signing key FA's like Judge and Cole.

I agree that SD may fall into this trap and end up with high-priced aging vets and little to no prospects to fill the gaps.  The proof will be in the pudding in a few years.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

I’m not saying they mean everything, but we’ve lost several guys who helped us get a high ranking and several others have disappointed.
 

We seem to have a serious problem in player development throughout the system. Guys showing up to the ML club lacking basic fundamentals of the game. Doesn’t bode well for player development in the near future 

Like Ryan and Varland and Ober? Like Duran? Like Arraez? Like Gordon, who is finally showing something? Like Wallner? Or Larnach (before getting hurt)? 

Fangraphs has MN 18th in rankings. Yes, they are down, but then, they dealt for Gray, was that bad? Would you rather they not have Gray right now? I get that Mahle got hurt, sucks for sure.....Also, the Twins made the playoffs in 19 and 20, kind of hurt their draft position.....But the idea the system is a barren wasteland, as some have stated, just isn't true. If Lewis is finally healthy and a few others are what some here think they are, I think people will be very happy in a couple years.

[wsnydes]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

We seem to have a serious problem in player development throughout the system. Guys showing up to the ML club lacking basic fundamentals of the game. Doesn’t bode well for player development in the near future 

I tend to agree on the fundamentals part.  It's pretty discouraging.  I would like to point out there have been a few players that have been brought up over the last couple of seasons that were called up earlier than they should have been out of necessity due to injuries.  They clearly weren't ready, but it is frustrating that the fundamentals were still lacking.  They're called fundamentals for a reason.

[Mike Sixel]

25 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

I tend to agree on the fundamentals part.  It's pretty discouraging.  I would like to point out there have been a few players that have been brought up over the last couple of seasons that were called up earlier than they should have been out of necessity due to injuries.  They clearly weren't ready, but it is frustrating that the fundamentals were still lacking.  They're called fundamentals for a reason.

At points last year they started 3 OFer in games, none of whom were in the top 5 or 6 options at the beginning of the year. That's going to lead to some issues for sure.....It's hard to picture any team outside the BEST team, having 8 fundamentally sound, good, OFers ready for the majors at any one time.

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

At points last year they started 3 OFer in games, none of whom were in the top 5 or 6 options at the beginning of the year. That's going to lead to some issues for sure.....It's hard to picture any team outside the BEST team, having 8 fundamentally sound, good, OFers ready for the majors at any one time.

To quote myself, I'm guessing they have 8 fundamentally sound OFers in the system, but not all 8 were ready for the majors last year by the end of the year. Who saw Wallner in MN last year, when the year started? No one.

[wsnydes]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

At points last year they started 3 OFer in games, none of whom were in the top 5 or 6 options at the beginning of the year. That's going to lead to some issues for sure.....It's hard to picture any team outside the BEST team, having 8 fundamentally sound, good, OFers ready for the majors at any one time.

Agreed, but some basic fundamentals shouldn't need to be taught in the minors though either.  They're fundamentals.  You learn that stuff in little league.

That said, there were times were you have guys that haven't played the outfield before manning the outfield.  There are positional fundamentals too and if you've never played that position before (or not very often anyway), it's unreasonable to expect them to be well versed in them.

I don't think the game is taught the same way anymore anyway, so all of this is somewhat moot.

[Mike Sixel]

15 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

Agreed, but some basic fundamentals shouldn't need to be taught in the minors though either.  They're fundamentals.  You learn that stuff in little league.

That said, there were times were you have guys that haven't played the outfield before manning the outfield.  There are positional fundamentals too and if you've never played that position before (or not very often anyway), it's unreasonable to expect them to be well versed in them.

I don't think the game is taught the same way anymore anyway, so all of this is somewhat moot.

You can be good at fundamentals, and still make mistakes.....I think, and this is just me, sometimes we forget that.