Why Can't the Twins Spend Like the Padres?

[Battle ur tail off]

1 hour ago, Trov said:

Do their fans really feel like they have a chance?  They started spending big on FA and making tons of trades back in 2018.  Hosmer deal really started it.  They finished 66-96 in 2018.  2019, they finished 70-92, both last place finishes, despite then spending big on Machado.  Then 2020, they finally got out of basement but still second place.  2021, third place again below 500 at 79-83, despite trading for Yu Darvish and Blake Snell.  

This year they bounced back some, even without having Tatis play, so they do have hope, with other trades and deals they have made.  However, I would not say they have a big chance being their team still continues to have holes despite them throwing money and every prospect they have at filling them. 

They are choosing one way to build a team, but I would say it is a flawed way in my opinion.  Are Twins building it the best way, maybe not either.  I still say team building comes down to player development.  If you cannot develop your own players through draft, international signings, it really does not matter you teams will still have holes.  

Rumors are Twins are willing to spend more, the question is will the players sign with them?  Should we throw bad money at players like Hosmer, who everyone said was overpaid at the time, simply to say we spent big?  I mean we could go out and offer Andrew Benintendi 10 years and 200 mil, just to say we spent big, but is he really worth 20 mil a year?  I am not hearing anyone saying he is. We could offer Chris Bassitt 40 mil a year too, just to say we signed a pitcher, but should we?  

I am not saying we should not try to sign CC or Rodon if the money works, but if they sign elsewhere we should not just go and spend the money we were going to on the next best option just because we have the money to spend. 

No, don't spend just to spend. Spend when you have Johan freeking Santana dominating the league and you have a .220 hitter as your DH. Alfonsa Soriano maybe? Who did we have to hold onto? Scott Baker maybe?

Spend when your lineup is the best in baseball but you are trotting out Carl Pavano as your #1. Cliff Lee anyone? We HAD TO HAVE AARON HICKS.

Spend when you have a team full of young guys that are making peanuts but you are missing a SS and a top of the rotation starter.

I'm with you, it's dumb to spend just to spend. And I don't like it for no reason. I just feel like over the years, the Twins being cheap and stingy with their prospects cost them oodles of playoff wins. They flat out wasted teams that were pretty stacked and had guys Hunter, Santana, Mauer and Morneau. 

[Battle ur tail off]

58 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm complicated so I see complication in your question. "Real Chance" requires your definition of real chance.

Did the Guardians have a real chance last year? Your answer will determine if we are speaking the same language.  ?

 

As for Jason Tyner... I never want to go back to those days again. We went through a decade of not signing free agents and not developing. It was a decade of treading water with average to below average talent getting every day playing time. I never want to go back to those days again.

I want development front and center. I think there are times to push today but you always have to have an eye on tomorrow. I know Dombroski has won some titles but he left behind rubble in the process. I'm not sure that I want that. Development is the only way to stay bullet proof. The Dodgers are the most bulletproof team I can think of... It isn't the money... Well Yeah it helps but the Dodgers farm is what deflects the bullets. 

BTW... The Padres with all that money spent will still need lightning in a bottle. All 30 teams need that Lightning. 

Did the Guardians have a "real chance" last year? I wouldn't say going into it that they did, but I feel like with what we saw at the end of last year if play like they did down the stretch and into the playoffs and their FO doesn't add to that team, it would be a travesty.

In fact, their fans are probably clamoring for some help to get that roster over the top. 

 

PS I am in no way saying that spending like San Diego does work or that it is what I want the Twins to do. I just want them to be able to recognize that when they is a shot or they have generational talent around like M&M, Santana, etc. that they do whatever is necessary to help those teams get over the hump, no matter the cost. 

[SanoMustGo]

Question is, are the Twins doing a good job of developing players?  If you have good development, then you fill in the gaps with trades/FA.  I'm going out on a limb and say if this season is like the last 2, we go full rebuild.  Also can't have more of your productive roster on the IL than on the field.  We have a few top prospects who are probably at a cross roads. 

[SanoMustGo]

Just now, Battle ur tail off said:

Did the Guardians have a "real chance" last year? I wouldn't say going into it that they did, but I feel like with what we saw at the end of last year if play like they did down the stretch and into the playoffs and their FO doesn't add to that team, it would be a travesty.

In fact, their fans are probably clamoring for some help to get that roster over the top. 

 

PS I am in no way saying that spending like San Diego does work or that it is what I want the Twins to do. I just want them to be able to recognize that when they is a shot or they have generational talent around like M&M, Santana, etc. that they do whatever is necessary to help those teams get over the hump, no matter the cost. 

They spent some money signing Bell, which worries me greatly regarding the Twins chance to compete.  If they go into the season without making some important moves, we could be looking at the basement like 2021.  Unless, that is, all the prospects take a big step forward, and this team can stay healthy(not confident)

[Beast]

Can’t be true.  Only large market teams can spend.otherwise the franchise will self destruct.

Why do we act like the TV deal is something outside of the Twins’ control?  Generate more interest in the team.  Negotiate better.  It’s not an excuse, it’s another level of indictment.

And who cares what the rest of the division is doing?  

[Brandon]

San Diego lost the Chargers.  The Padres are the only major sports franchise in town.  They get all the corporate dollars and they are selling out all of their tickets.  I bet their tickets cost more then the Twins tickets do.  If Minneapolis could Jettison the Vikings, Wild and Timberwolves, and sell out more expensive tickets and rework the TV and Radio contracts we could spend at the Padres level.

[KnoblauchWasFramed]

3 hours ago, Shaitan said:

How has it worked out for SD so far?

The made the playoffs this year and the fans seem to be pretty happy with the competitive team that the owners put on the field every night... so imma say that it worked out well.  

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Do you think that the Twins low payroll may be the only reason the Twins are still in Minnesota, because the Twins organization, as it exists, is not capable of making much more gross income? If the owners spend much more money on expensive players, but have few fans attending games and have a low paying tv deal, resulting in little revenue and no profit, then the Twins organization will lose money. And if the business is losing money, then the business owners may want/need to sell the business to the highest bidder and the highest bidder may live in North Carolina and want to move the Twins to Charlotte?  So Twins fans who live in Minnesota, be grateful for low spending owners. This is the only reason the Twins are still a Minnesota team. "If your out go exceeds your income, then your upkeep will be your downfall." Sincerely, tarheeltwinsfan, B.A. in Economics, University of North Carolina.

I wouldn't want our team to imitate SD. Spending money isn't the solution to all our problem. It's how we evaluate players, which effects our drafting, trading, promoting & signing FAs. It's ability to reconize our problems & resolve them. Also the ability to see our needs & the ability to evaluate players who fit those needs. Ability to pull of good trades to fill those needs. The ability to develop & coach those players. To be more efficient.

I rather model teams like CLE & TB who are effecient, they are never far from competing. Once you are efficient then you can spend a little more if need be. To spend a little more on a player you'd like to keep, a FA that fits your needs, bring in a needed coach. You may say that's CLE & TB are low level but big shot LAD are doing the same thing but they are able to spend more.

That's where I want to be, but maybe do it a little better.

[High heat]

Yes TV deal is the biggest blunder of the organization. 
 

No one can just tune in to the game for an inning or 2 or 3 multiple days a week.  Or even catch part of a game at a local establishment. which turns into excitement generated for the team.  That in turn brings fans to games.  If the twins play an exciting Tuesday night game literally no one but the serious Twins fans even know about it. 
 

Bally sports ( the Twins originally signed the deal with Fox sports who was forced to sell) is the worst TV group to for baseball.  Their unwillingness to work with the internet TV providers for there gambling purposes has robbed millions of potential baseball fans for watching baseball through the country.  The last thing baseball needs is not giving access to watch game to you fans.  Who are the majority or internet tv subscribers.  
 

the twins and the many other baseballs teams should refuse to negotiate with Bally sports at the end of this deal because of this.   Baseball needs as much access for the young generation as humanly possible if they want to survive in 20 years!  

[Nine of twelve]

3 hours ago, Trov said:

I still say team building comes down to player development.

Yep. And, probably more important, accurate scouting.

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, adorduan said:

they were in the NLCS last year.  when was the last time the Twins were in the ALCS?

2002

It ended a 9 year playoff drought for the Twins 

We lost to the Angels who had ended a 14 year playoff drought and the Angels went on to win the World Series. 

Adam Kennedy who hit 7 home runs in 474 AB's during the regular season hit 3 Home runs during the ALCS. @glunn

In 2002 the Angels were 15th in payroll at 62M... The Twins were 27th in payroll at 40M,

What does this have to do with the 2023 Padres payroll? ?

 

[weitz41]

1 hour ago, adorduan said:

so what? if they can't win games who gives a crap if they are still on the roster...

How many payoff teams were starting players in August that are similar to Cave, Beckam, Contreas or Celestino consistently? Would the Phillies have made it to the series with Cave in left, Contreas in right and Celestino in center? IDC what team it is if you're starting you 50th-60th best prospect/player you're not going too far in the playoffs.

To make the playoffs in 2022 the Twins would have needed 10 more wins. WAR 1 win = $8 mil. So, $80 mil to be the last playoff team. How does that make sense? Now IF this group (healthy) can get into the playoffs and by chance win a single series at $130 mil. That says 10 more wins ($80 Mil in payroll) will likely get you to at least the ALCS. 

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, adorduan said:

I'll take the rubble for a couple of championships.  we get rubble and we don't even win anything.

The Nationals are the current example of the rubble. The majority of their fans seem to be upset with the trade of Soto. 

 

[rwilfong86]

Ownership isn't committed to winning. 

[TwinsRealist]

And you wouldn't take that trade off for a world series victory?!

3 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

The Nationals are the current example of the rubble. The majority of their fans seem to be upset with the trade of Soto. 

 

[mac098]

44 minutes ago, High heat said:

Yes TV deal is the biggest blunder of the organization. 
 

No one can just tune in to the game for an inning or 2 or 3 multiple days a week.  Or even catch part of a game at a local establishment. which turns into excitement generated for the team.  That in turn brings fans to games.  If the twins play an exciting Tuesday night game literally no one but the serious Twins fans even know about it. 
 

Bally sports ( the Twins originally signed the deal with Fox sports who was forced to sell) is the worst TV group to for baseball.  Their unwillingness to work with the internet TV providers for there gambling purposes has robbed millions of potential baseball fans for watching baseball through the country.  The last thing baseball needs is not giving access to watch game to you fans.  Who are the majority or internet tv subscribers.  
 

the twins and the many other baseballs teams should refuse to negotiate with Bally sports at the end of this deal because of this.   Baseball needs as much access for the young generation as humanly possible if they want to survive in 20 years!  

I agree. Bally Sports has severely hurt the entire MN sports fanbase. And I mean across ALL sports. I haven't been able to watch a single MN sports team, outside the Vikings, for over 2 years. Not being able to watch the Twins hurts the future fanbase. If kids don't see the sport, they don't wanna go to the games and don't get to purchase the apparel of the team. Lost revenue right there. 

 

As a parent, my son has always asked, "Why don't we get to watch the Twins on TV?" As a coach of the sport, I see my players repping more SD, LA, NYY, PHI, MIA, BOS, and CHI Sox hats than I see MN Twins hats. Why is that? Those teams are on TV. Our team is not on TV. 

[Riverbrian]

Just now, TwinsRealist said:

And you wouldn't take that trade off for a world series victory?!

That depends... Is a Genie granting me this. 

 

[se7799]

I honestly think a good thread on here would be... who of us die hard fans pay to watch our Twins on TV.  I'm out of market..so I pay up for the mlb network. I also purchase merchandise and attend spring traing. Probably an unpopular opinion here...but feels like many on here are unwilling to spend to watch our team either on tv or in person..but like to bemoan about our lower payroll.  Either support the team or dont..I'm ok either way.  But if folks are unwilling to spend for tickets or TV access then please don't complain about payroll

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, Battle ur tail off said:

No, don't spend just to spend. Spend when you have Johan freeking Santana dominating the league and you have a .220 hitter as your DH. Alfonsa Soriano maybe? Who did we have to hold onto? Scott Baker maybe?

Spend when your lineup is the best in baseball but you are trotting out Carl Pavano as your #1. Cliff Lee anyone? We HAD TO HAVE AARON HICKS.

Spend when you have a team full of young guys that are making peanuts but you are missing a SS and a top of the rotation starter.

I'm with you, it's dumb to spend just to spend. And I don't like it for no reason. I just feel like over the years, the Twins being cheap and stingy with their prospects cost them oodles of playoff wins. They flat out wasted teams that were pretty stacked and had guys Hunter, Santana, Mauer and Morneau. 

I agree with you. I don't want to spend just to spend. Spending 10M on Dylan Bundy is spending that I could do without. 

Although, I'm not sure that we can compare front offices. Your examples were under Terry Ryan. I have the impression right or wrong that Terry was more conservative financially.

Payroll rose immediately under Falvey and Lavine. Maybe not to the levels that others would like but the team was instantly more aggressive once Ryan was replaced. 

I have no idea... Just what I'm seeing with my binoculars from a distance.   

[adorduan]

45 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

2002

It ended a 9 year playoff drought for the Twins 

We lost to the Angels who had ended a 14 year playoff drought and the Angels went on to win the World Series. 

Adam Kennedy who hit 7 home runs in 474 AB's during the regular season hit 3 Home runs during the ALCS. @glunn

In 2002 the Angels were 15th in payroll at 62M... The Twins were 27th in payroll at 40M,

What does this have to do with the 2023 Padres payroll? ?

 

IMO their spending puts them a lot closer to winning a WS than the Twins. That's the goal, right? Winning a World Series?

[Riverbrian]

21 minutes ago, adorduan said:

IMO their spending puts them a lot closer to winning a WS than the Twins. That's the goal, right? Winning a World Series?

I won't deny the correlation between spending and success.

But, I also won't deny the obvious class structure that exists in the game.

The Padres are not the Yankees, the crash will most likely come. The Bill will come due. If you sell your farm and sign the 10 year deals.... the window won't be open long.  A couple of key injuries and that window slams down on fingers quickly. Pretty soon, they are trading Edwin Diaz to get Cano off the books. 

Are the Padres closer than the Twins right now. In my opinion... Yes they are. Are they closer in 2024... Let's see if they keep spending to sustain it. 

Are the Angels or Rangers who are dropping a lot of dough closer than the Twins? I'm not so sure. 

For Clarity on my thoughts... I think the Twins should spend a lot this year... No Bundy's... I want players, but... holding the Padres high in the air and pointing at them like they have shown us all how to do it. I will stop at that water's edge. 

 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I wouldn't want our team to imitate SD. Spending money isn't the solution to all our problem. It's how we evaluate players, which effects our drafting, trading, promoting & signing FAs. It's ability to reconize our problems & resolve them. Also the ability to see our needs & the ability to evaluate players who fit those needs. Ability to pull of good trades to fill those needs. The ability to develop & coach those players. To be more efficient.

I rather model teams like CLE & TB who are effecient, they are never far from competing. Once you are efficient then you can spend a little more if need be. To spend a little more on a player you'd like to keep, a FA that fits your needs, bring in a needed coach. You may say that's CLE & TB are low level but big shot LAD are doing the same thing but they are able to spend more.

That's where I want to be, but maybe do it a little better.

Well said Doc.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

 What does this have to do with the 2023 Padres payroll? ?

You said earlier you want "development." 

 

What does THAT have to do with comparing the Twins and Padres payroll??

 

Nothing. Zip. Zilch.

 

The two things are unrelated, but can certainly co-exist. Like with...your favorites, the Dodgers.

 

The Twins can spend more, AND they can do a better job developing. 

[glunn]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

2002

It ended a 9 year playoff drought for the Twins 

We lost to the Angels who had ended a 14 year playoff drought and the Angels went on to win the World Series. 

Adam Kennedy who hit 7 home runs in 474 AB's during the regular season hit 3 Home runs during the ALCS. @glunn

In 2002 the Angels were 15th in payroll at 62M... The Twins were 27th in payroll at 40M,

What does this have to do with the 2023 Padres payroll? ?

 

That *%&$ hit 3 home runs in the deciding game against the Twins.  One of the more sickening days in my life, sitting in the left field bleachers while the Twins got blown away.  Thanks for reminding me.  ?

 

[Len1Twinfan]

Why Can't the Twins Spend Like the Padres?

Because they aren't a bunch of drunken sailors????

 

[tony&rodney]

Looking quickly through some recent attendance numbers it seems like the Padres and Twins were pretty close in 2017-2019. The last three years there has been a growing gap. In 2022, the Padres pulled in more than a million more fans than the Twins. The Twins were in 1st place most of the season and the Padres had some issues. It appears that the Padres fans are more excited by the brand of baseball played by their team than the Twins fans are for their team.  Butts in seats still means something. So a better media deal and a million plus extra fans creates a gap between these two teams in their finances. 

I would suggest that station to station baseball, poor fundamental play, and management style turned off some Twins fans. In any event, the front office needs to figure a way to get more people into Target Field in 2023. My two cents is to field a more exciting team.

[Riverbrian]

21 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

You said earlier you want "development." 

 

What does THAT have to do with comparing the Twins and Padres payroll??

 

Nothing. Zip. Zilch.

 

The two things are unrelated, but can certainly co-exist. Like with...your favorites, the Dodgers.

 

The Twins can spend more, AND they can do a better job developing. 

No argument from me on Sentence 1, 4 and 5 and I agree with sentence 3 as the answer to sentence 2. 

Although I got to admit that I've lost your point, since you are quoting me from a post about 2002. Then mixing that quote with your first sentence where you are paraphrasing my run-on thoughts on development in a different post and a different context where I was given two polar options to consider.   

But wouldn't you rather have a real chance to win a title or at least playoff games for a period of years, then tear it down if you have to and start over?

Or would you rather wait and wait and wait and wait for your guys to develop and hope you can catch lightning in a bottle one of those years

 

Are you under the impression that I don't believe that teams can spend more and develop at the same time? 

[theBOMisthebomb]

5 hours ago, adorduan said:

I'll take the rubble for a couple of championships.  we get rubble and we don't even win anything.

Man... I'd take 30 years of constant rubble for another World Series championship. I watch these other fan bases and the ride to a championship and I'm just so dang jealous. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

7 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Who made the sorry Twins tv deal 11 years ago? Don't you folks in Minnesota watch tv? 

Pohlad companies had an ownership stake in FSN (going back to the MSC days) that I assume they retained through the Sinclair transition.

I believe the cruddy TV deal doesn’t  bring the full Pohlad view into scope because different parts of their companies have the stake. I believe Joe coming from media may have had something to do w/ the FSN ownership management. 

[old nurse]

9 hours ago, Dave Overlund said:

To me it doesn't have to be either $140 or $235. There's a lot of room in between. If the Twins don't want to spend $200m every year I can accept that. But there should be peaks to go with the valleys because what they are doing now isn't working as far as winning or attendance is concerned. 

I know it is a 'chicken and the egg' situation but to me 'if you build it, they will come.' In other words, if the Twins spent up for a few seasons and won a few playoff games Target Field would be the hottest ticket in town all summer. If you look at the attendance by season there is a direct correlation with winning going back to the Metrodome days. 

The Twins averaged more fans per season every year from 2002-2009 at the Metrodome than they did last season at beautiful Target Field. 

If you want to run the team as 'small (or mid) market,' you are going to make small (or middling) revenue. Gotta spend some money to make money. 

Nyoman are wrong on the spend money to make money. It comes down to “Just win, baby. In the early part of this century the fans came out for a winning team that they were not spending money on.