Minnesota Adds Farmer to Infield Mix

[jorgenswest]

Are we comparing Urshela to Farmer because they were moved the same day? If we keep Urshela don’t we still need Farmer or Kiner-Falefa or some insurance at SS?

Looking at projections Farmer is projected for a WRC+ of 98 and Kiner-Falefa 93. Looking at two years of fielding metrics for Kiner-Falefa and Farmer gives a mixed bag. IKF is positive by DRS, is close to 0 by UZR negative by RAA. He is probably average and Farmer slightly below average. I can’t imagine that would account for a difference in runs greater than their projected bats. I would probably prefer Kiner-Falefa but that would greatly depend on whether I could get him for Legumina. If I have to send the Yankees an off the 40 higher upside prospect for Kiner-Falefa I think I would go with Farmer.

Unless Urshela should be seen as a reasonable SS option the decisions about these trade seem pretty independent.

[heresthething]

I'm in the camp that this is a solid move.  

1. Frees up budget to spend elsewhere which I think they will do
2. Puts Miranda where they think he will play long term
3. He can play all the IF positions, the Twins can play him where it's most needed.  
4. Polanco and Arraez both have injury histories, the move lets you mix and match as needed.

 

[Heiny]

Not an earth shattering move, but definately provides a safety valve.  I liked Urshela a lot,  but I believe that Farmer will get that same admiration from Twins fans after the season.  Very likable, good clubhouse guy, super utility,  needed right-handed bat.  I don't see how this could be seen as an obstruction to signing Correa.  But they just saved another 4m.  Maybe they are trying to set us up for signing Correa and Rodon?  If that's the case, I'm on board.

[roger]

Will begin by saying I like this move, actually both moves.  But I have a couple questions.  First, is his defense at short good?  Second, is it possible that Legumina was added to the 40-man to complete this trade?  Could a player have more value in a potential trade because he was added to the 40-man?

As for what this means.  Miranda is their 3B of the future, short, medium and long term.  Farmer is their starting shortstop.  When Lewis/Lee is healthy (Lewis) or more experienced (Lee), either becomes the Twins' starting shortstop with Farmer moving to the utility role that he seems well suited for and at a reasonable salary.  This also means that most of us need to understand, what I suspect the FO already does, that Correa ain't signing with the Twins.  I can live with that.  Now let's see them move on to their pressing needs, a starting catcher and top bullpen arm.

[mikelink45]

2 hours ago, goulik said:

Twins @ Reds: Sept. 18, 19, 20…

Twins vs Red Twins 

[GNess]

I like both moves which basically resulted in two like for like players. Although, I suspect Farmer is a better SS option than Urshela. (Who was a good player for the Twins at 3B.)

Also there is a cost component as Farmer makes less than Urshela wold have as I understand things. That's not a happy accident by the FO - that is purposeful.

Twins are active already....good sign.

[Riverbrian]

12 minutes ago, GNess said:

I like both moves which basically resulted in two like for like players. Although, I suspect Farmer is a better SS option than Urshela. (Who was a good player for the Twins at 3B.)

Also there is a cost component as Farmer makes less than Urshela wold have as I understand things. That's not a happy accident by the FO - that is purposeful.

Twins are active already....good sign.

I have a feeling that this will be a very active off-season for our newly uniformed team. 

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

1 hour ago, heresthething said:

I'm in the camp that this is a solid move.  

1. Frees up budget to spend elsewhere which I think they will do
2. Puts Miranda where they think he will play long term
3. He can play all the IF positions, the Twins can play him where it's most needed.  
4. Polanco and Arraez both have injury histories, the move lets you mix and match as needed.

 

5. Primary SS until Lewis/Lee/Martin arrive.

[dxpavelka]

12 hours ago, VivaBomboRivera! said:

Cross-post from Gio trade article.  Looks like an offensive downgrade for the sake of a paltry $3 million.  :-(

So is Farmer (not Gordon) the new infield utility guy? Starting at 3B? At SS?  Admittedly it's early, but frustrating not to be able to see a master plan here. 

 

A "master plan" is something you don't ever see from any team any time.

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, roger said:

Second, is it possible that Legumina was added to the 40-man to complete this trade?  Could a player have more value in a potential trade because he was added to the 40-man?

I'm not a roster expert but I was asking about the same questions too, and I think I might have an answer.  The rules governing rosters are arcane sometimes, and I think one of the lesser-known rules is at play here.

First, no, a player is not more valuable after being added to the 40.  Indeed it's the opposite, because when off the 40 you can do anything you want with him (except protect him from Rule-5 after the requisite number of years, or prevent him from declaring free agency after a few years more), while when he's on the 40 then he's taking up a limited resource and you have to expose him to waiver claims if you decide to take him off.  Prospects who are still years away from Rule-5 decisions are more valuable in trade than prospects who are Rule-5 eligible, all else being equal, unless their talent and development are so high that their place on the 40 is obvious.

It was Rule-5 draft considerations that caused Legumina to be added, as we all have discussed by now, and there is one proviso that gets mentioned now and then - a player added to the 40 in advance of that draft (and I don't know if this applies to every player) must be kept on the 40 until some time after the off-season (again I don't know exactly, maybe it's the same date as when the 60-day IL opens up again in Feburary).  The purpose seems obvious, to keep teams from "hiding" a player specifically for the Rule-5 draft, then DFAing him shortly after.

And so we have a third detail I'm not certain of, but which may be important: does this restriction carry over if that newly-protected player is traded?  Based on nothing more than the sequence of events we've just seen play out with Legumina, I am betting, "no."

If this chain of guesses and suppositions and half-remembered facts holds up, then it looks like the two teams agreed in principle to the trade some time ago, and the Reds asked the Twins to do them a favor and add Legumina to the 40 in advance of the trade.  The Twins had room so they did it.  After all the dust has settled with Urshela and Legumina leaving and Farmer arriving, the Twins are back to having one extra spot available on the 40.

Look for Legumina to be quietly passed through waivers sometime this winter, at a time of the Reds' choosing when they think everyone's roster is full.  If he's not then I'm back to being puzzled why the Twins made the roster move themselves.

I hope someone chimes in if they have any corrections to offer.

[h2oface]

15 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

Fascinating. Slowly we are becoming the Reds. What have their records been?

 My thoughts exactly. 

[MTV]

Kyle Farmer is the Infield version of Kyle Garlick. Look at his splits vs. Pitchers, he posted a .611 OPS vs. Righties and a .948 OPS against Lefties In 2022. Now the Twins need to chase someone who crushes Righties at Third/Short and you’ve got a serious Platoon option at those positions.

[Brandon]

15 hours ago, VivaBomboRivera! said:

Cross-post from Gio trade article.  Looks like an offensive downgrade for the sake of a paltry $3 million.  :-(

So is Farmer (not Gordon) the new infield utility guy? Starting at 3B? At SS?  Admittedly it's early, but frustrating not to be able to see a master plan here. 

 

Don’t forget the extra year of control too.  Farmer won’t be a free agent for 2 more years.  Urshala only has 1 more year.

[Brandon]

I look at adding Farmer as if we are adding Nick Punto to the roster.  He can play all over.  He has a hole in his offensive game (OBP).  But he fields multiple positions well.  He fits the mold of our bench last year in that he won’t be a huge drop off that other benches have issues with during the season.  He can fill in at SS or other IF positions for long periods of time in case of injuries.  Hopefully he gets less than 300 plate appearances next season as that would mean the front office did their jobs and we have health from our players too.  So I am rooting for a sub 300 plate appearance season from Farmer while he’s healthy for the season next year.

[DJL44]

5 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

Twins vs Red Twins 

Why do you think the C is red?

[tarheeltwinsfan]

17 hours ago, AceWrigley said:

And he has a major league era of 0.00. The man can do it all.

He runs and throws  faster than Willians Astudillo.

[miller761]

Decent right handed bat who has versatility and can also play catcher in an emergency. Great addition to our team. No problem finding playing time for him even if we add a top 4 SS. There is more to a MLB team than just marque players.

[Dman]

With Urshela pretty exclusively a third baseman I always felt like moving him made sense.  Getting someone who can legit play short is an ideal swap IMO.  They also get a younger pitching prospect from the Angels to replace the older Legumina and gain a 40 man spot.  There is a lot of value in this trade for the Twins.

Will be interesting to see how the rest of the offseason shakes out but I think this is a decent start.  Hopefully more of the younger pitching prospects the Twins have on the 40 man show they can be difference makers next year.

[Riverbrian]

8 hours ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

5. Primary SS until Lewis/Lee/Martin arrive.

So your saying that until the Farm Produces they brought in a Farmer. 

[ashbury]

40 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

So your saying that until the Farm Produces they brought in a Farmer. 

Approves:

[old nurse]

10 hours ago, ashbury said:

I'm not a roster expert but I was asking about the same questions too, and I think I might have an answer.  The rules governing rosters are arcane sometimes, and I think one of the lesser-known rules is at play here.

First, no, a player is not more valuable after being added to the 40.  Indeed it's the opposite, because when off the 40 you can do anything you want with him (except protect him from Rule-5 after the requisite number of years, or prevent him from declaring free agency after a few years more), while when he's on the 40 then he's taking up a limited resource and you have to expose him to waiver claims if you decide to take him off.  Prospects who are still years away from Rule-5 decisions are more valuable in trade than prospects who are Rule-5 eligible, all else being equal, unless their talent and development are so high that their place on the 40 is obvious.

It was Rule-5 draft considerations that caused Legumina to be added, as we all have discussed by now, and there is one proviso that gets mentioned now and then - a player added to the 40 in advance of that draft (and I don't know if this applies to every player) must be kept on the 40 until some time after the off-season (again I don't know exactly, maybe it's the same date as when the 60-day IL opens up again in Feburary).  The purpose seems obvious, to keep teams from "hiding" a player specifically for the Rule-5 draft, then DFAing him shortly after.

And so we have a third detail I'm not certain of, but which may be important: does this restriction carry over if that newly-protected player is traded?  Based on nothing more than the sequence of events we've just seen play out with Legumina, I am betting, "no."

If this chain of guesses and suppositions and half-remembered facts holds up, then it looks like the two teams agreed in principle to the trade some time ago, and the Reds asked the Twins to do them a favor and add Legumina to the 40 in advance of the trade.  The Twins had room so they did it.  After all the dust has settled with Urshela and Legumina leaving and Farmer arriving, the Twins are back to having one extra spot available on the 40.

Look for Legumina to be quietly passed through waivers sometime this winter, at a time of the Reds' choosing when they think everyone's roster is full.  If he's not then I'm back to being puzzled why the Twins made the roster move themselves.

I hope someone chimes in if they have any corrections to offer.

To remove a player from the 40 man roster a team has to DFA them, thus making them available to all of the clubs. Attempting to stash a player would be a losing proposition. Look at the multiple times a player has switched teams multiple times over the off season

[singlesoverwalks]

If one kind of hitter is going to benefit from the new defensive positioning rules it's the line drive hitter, right? Here are the top LD% hitters of 2022 per Fangraphs. The Twins just traded away #15 (a $10M mostly 3B who they have a replacement for) and picked up #8 ($5M, mostly SS, they don't have a shortstop anymore).

[Trov]

No offense to Farmer, but if he has any major contribution to our team next year, we will not be in playoffs. 

[Shobae]

On 11/19/2022 at 2:45 AM, Linus said:

I e not seen any reports that he is “terrific” defensively. Can you elaborate?

Not sure were he's getting that from the most optimistic defensive metric (DRS) rates him as an above average shortstop that's all. So not sure where that's from either.

Also I don't think I saw this mentioned here but this season Farmer murdered lefties to the tune of a 157 wRC+ in 158 PA, compared to urshela's above average 118 wRC+. So for a team that was starting jake cave against lefties in september he's certainly helpful in that regard. The difference between him and Urshela? Their wRC+ against righties is 67 wRC+ for farmer (sandy leon called he wants his stats back) vs 120 wRC+ for Urshela. So we can tell who's the better hitter here.
So as long as we never see farmer bat against righties, unless the primary shortstop (please sign one) is injured this should be a solid pick up.
PS: his career splits aren't as extreme but similar, 50 wRC+ difference from his 72 career wRC+ against righties.

[Jacksson]

We will not see one of the top 4 Free Agent SS sign with the Twinkies.

The team is owned by Jimmy Pohlad who learned business from Papa Carl (Mr Cheap) Pohlad.

The Pohlad Business Philosophy: (by way of Fred Flintstone)

"You're in the business army now; your only friend is a buck and the more bucks you've got, the more friends you've got."

3B = Miranda & Farmer

SS = Farmer & Gordon

2B = Polanco & Gordon

1B = Arraez & Kirilloff & Farmer

DH = Arraez, Kirilloff, Polanco, Miranda, Buxton,