Begging Forgiveness, But Personally, I Have To Examine Correa One More Time

[DocBauer]

I became a fan of Correa this year despite a 1st half mixed bag of results. I loved his teamwork and leadership in the same way I became an instant fan of Gray for his leadership in regard to the rotation. I did a lengthy blueprint with the idea/expectation Correa would not be back, and how I'd address the overall depth and quality of the team for 2023.

I'm still betting SOMEONE will just blow up any chance of the Twins retaining him. But with greater reflection, and after listening to Dan Hayes on a recent Gleeman and the Geek podcast, some of my thoughts have changed. And believe me, the LAST THING I wanted to do was begin another thread about Correa. Haven't we had enough already?? So this might just be cathartic for me, and nothing else.

There is the opinion, and I've shared in this, that Correa money might be better spent, OVERALL, across the roster. And that is true. IF, the FO does a great job of doing so. And I'm NOT going or trying to bash them, especially since they've never really been in this "clean books" scenario they find themselves in currently. They've done some very, very good things for the organization, and the team, but have also mis-fired a few times as well. Depending on which report and projection you want to look at, the Twins have about $50M to spend. That number jumps to $60M plus when moving Kepler and Urshela.

Rumors and innuendo are bogus. But one "hears" the FO/ownership really want to keep Correa and will offer him in the high $200M's in an attempt to do so. Again, bogus right? And while $35M several years from now won't have the same impact on a payroll the way it does now, you're still paying for the first 5 or 6 years and undoubtedly eating some sunken cost the last few. There are a handful of teams that could just decide to blow up any offer the Twins might make at 9yrs and $300M, fully able and willing to eat some late contract numbers. Now, the market has been very strange the past few years so who knows.

But Correa is a special player. And he's not only a leader who is driven to win, he's smart as hell and sees what is going on around him. Hayes mentioned a Yankees game where Correa spoke to Fulmer on the mound and told him what the batter was looking for and what to throw. He got out of the inning and the Twins actually won the game. He's just a very smart player, in addition to his other gifts and offerings. 

If things get out of hand and someone is going to offer $300M plus, I can't blame the Twins if they balk and move on. There comes a point as a mid-market team where you just have to say "enough is enough". But what if the FO just says 8yrs and $280-290M? It's a record deal for the Twins, and I believe for an infielder, based on annual value. Is it enough for Correa to stay? Is it enough for Boras, who has a good relationship with the Twins? 

The Twins settle SS for several years with easy movement of other top/quality prospects to change positions and still do what they do best. It gives the Twins one of the best ballplayers in all of MLB for several years. It even allows $ left over for a generally young roster to add a few more pieces to the puzzle, moving Kepler and Urshela, and go with additional youth.

NOT saying it's going to happen. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea. But I AM starting to wonder if it's feasible and smart to make a transcendental move for the organization to do something like this. 

And so I beg forgiveness for yet ANOTHER Correa article. But the wheels are turning in my head right now and wondering.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

8 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

I became a fan of Correa this year despite a 1st half mixed bag of results. I loved his teamwork and leadership in the same way I became an instant fan of Gray for his leadership in regard to the rotation. I did a lengthy blueprint with the idea/expectation Correa would not be back, and how I'd address the overall depth and quality of the team for 2023.

I'm still betting SOMEONE will just blow up any chance of the Twins retaining him. But with greater reflection, and after listening to Dan Hayes on a recent Gleeman and the Geek podcast, some of my thoughts have changed. And believe me, the LAST THING I wanted to do was begin another thread about Correa. Haven't we had enough already?? So this might just be cathartic for me, and nothing else.

There is the opinion, and I've shared in this, that Correa money might be better spent, OVERALL, across the roster. And that is true. IF, the FO does a great job of doing so. And I'm NOT going or trying to bash them, especially since they've never really been in this "clean books" scenario they find themselves in currently. They've done some very, very good things for the organization, and the team, but have also mis-fired a few times as well. Depending on which report and projection you want to look at, the Twins have about $50M to spend. That number jumps to $60M plus when moving Kepler and Urshela.

Rumors and innuendo are bogus. But one "hears" the FO/ownership really want to keep Correa and will offer him in the high $200M's in an attempt to do so. Again, bogus right? And while $35M several years from now won't have the same impact on a payroll the way it does now, you're still paying for the first 5 or 6 years and undoubtedly eating some sunken cost the last few. There are a handful of teams that could just decide to blow up any offer the Twins might make at 9yrs and $300M, fully able and willing to eat some late contract numbers. Now, the market has been very strange the past few years so who knows.

But Correa is a special player. And he's not only a leader who is driven to win, he's smart as hell and sees what is going on around him. Hayes mentioned a Yankees game where Correa spoke to Fulmer on the mound and told him what the batter was looking for and what to throw. He got out of the inning and the Twins actually won the game. He's just a very smart player, in addition to his other gifts and offerings. 

If things get out of hand and someone is going to offer $300M plus, I can't blame the Twins if they balk and move on. There comes a point as a mid-market team where you just have to say "enough is enough". But what if the FO just says 8yrs and $280-290M? It's a record deal for the Twins, and I believe for an infielder, based on annual value. Is it enough for Correa to stay? Is it enough for Boras, who has a good relationship with the Twins? 

The Twins settle SS for several years with easy movement of other top/quality prospects to change positions and still do what they do best. It gives the Twins one of the best ballplayers in all of MLB for several years. It even allows $ left over for a generally young roster to add a few more pieces to the puzzle, moving Kepler and Urshela, and go with additional youth.

NOT saying it's going to happen. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea. But I AM starting to wonder if it's feasible and smart to make a transcendental move for the organization to do something like this. 

And so I beg forgiveness for yet ANOTHER Correa article. But the wheels are turning in my head right now and wondering.

Seager got 10/325 last year, I had a similar idea, got corrected quickly

[DocBauer]

36 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Seager got 10/325 last year, I had a similar idea, got corrected quickly

Understood. But it's a year and $35M later, so I'm not sure 10yrs is in play. 

I'm still only spitballing and projecting here, but take away that 1yr and we're still in line, right?

Not saying what should happen or will happen, just that 10yrs should maybe drop to 9 now.

[weitz41]

I be thrilled if it happened. He not only is a very good SS but improves the whole team with his leadership and baseball IQ. Having 2 of the 3 most difficult positions locked up long term would be great and it frees up Lee, Lewis and Martin to play other positions

[Doctor Gast]

My hope is that Correa would reconsider to opt in one more year. With all the competition in FA at SS plus the bidding war of all big guns for Judge, it makes sense. If Lewis hadn't got hurt his 1st night in CF, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The way Lewis had been playing at SS, he'd be our starting SS starting the '23 season, with Lee, Martin & Miller as near future support. So the way it stands now, this is the best scenario.

But I believe that the odds are that Correa opts out even if Boras advises not to. If we go out & sign him, which I'm all for, what will do with Lewis, Martin, Lee & Miller? We eventually have Miranda, Lewis & Lee at 3B; Polanco, Lewis, Martin & Julien at 2B; Miranda, Kiriloff & Arraez at 1B; Buxton, Gordon, Celestino & Martin in CF; Miranda, Arreaz & Buxton at DH.  I'd hate to trade away any of them . So there'd be a lot of juggling around. 

To begin '23 none of these will be ready, if all continue to progress, I see Lewis  could be plugged in June, Martin same time or when needed, Lee some time towards the end of '23 and Miller in the end of '24.

[Whitey333]

Yes Correa is a very good shortstop.  But he is just too expensive.  You say sign him and you have the SS position filled for years.  Yes but at what cost?  You say he will be surrounded by youngsters.  Yes but at what cost?  What good does it do to have a superstar with not much else.  Signing him will break the budget and people will still complain because we have very little money to invest in other area.  And yes, who isn't sick of all this Correa speculation?  It ranks only  second to all the ridiculous coverage given to our part time center fielder, Buxton.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Don't apologize Doc. I thoroughly enjoyed your article. I would love to have Correa sign long term and find places to play the youngsters later. SS is a great position upon which to build a franchise. Be strong up the middle is a common phrase for a reason.  

37 minutes ago, Whitey333 said:

Yes Correa is a very good shortstop.  But he is just too expensive.  You say sign him and you have the SS position filled for years.  Yes but at what cost?  You say he will be surrounded by youngsters.  Yes but at what cost?  What good does it do to have a superstar with not much else.  Signing him will break the budget and people will still complain because we have very little money to invest in other area.  And yes, who isn't sick of all this Correa speculation?  It ranks only  second to all the ridiculous coverage given to our part time center fielder, Buxton.

I, for one, am not "sick of all this Correa speculation". I find it to be reasonable, because the Twins need a SS, which is possibly the most important position on a baseball team, and Correa is the best SS who has ever played on the Twins..(my apologies to Roy, Zoilo and Greg). AND CORREA IS AVAILABLE!

[terrydactyls]

In my old-man opinion, right now is the time for the Pohlad's to throw caution to the wind, up the payroll to $170M, and go all in on being  top 5 team for the rest of the 2020's.  Give Correa, Rodon, Contreras, the best non-Judge RH-hitting outfielder, and relief pitcher whatever it takes to sign them.  Mix them in with the young guys coming up and sit back and enjoy baseball.  Yeah, I know a lot of people will respond saying that it will never happen, but that's why I began this response with it's "just my old-man opinion".

[rv78]

I'm all for signing Rodon and Contreras. Just not sold on Correa only because of the long-term committment it will take. If we could get him for another 1 or 2 years I'd say definitely, but unless other teams punt on him like they did last year, I don't see that happening. I want the position open for Lewis or Lee going forward. If Lewis goes to the outfield because SS is blocked by Correa I'll cringe everytime he goes into the wall. Where does Lee play when he's ready? Kepler, Urshela, Polanco will be gone before too long. I see Julien going to 2B. Miranda at 3B. Arraez at 1B. Larnach, Buxton, Kirilloff, Gordon, Martin, Celestino in the OF. Lewis and Lee both at SS? Probably not. Does one displace Miranda at 3B forcing him to play 1B and DH with Arraez? If Rocco continues with his rotating lineup on an everyday basis they'll all play 3 or 4 games a week. Do we really want Correa blocking these young guys or forcing them to positions they are not use to playing. We already have Miranda at 1B with arguments he shouldn't be there? How good was Sano in RF or 1B? Not very good. I say pass on Correa if it takes more than 1 year to get him but use the money to add Rodon and Contreras. 

[EGFTShaw]

Baseball is weird.

But I love constructing teams and have been a Twins fans since days of TonyO, then Killer and Carew.  But Tony was my favorite until he hurt his knees which given my age only a couple of seasons.  But also, Cesar "Go Ahead and Try to Miss Me with A Pitch" Tovar.  Kaat, Bert's Curve and then it goes downhill until 1987 and then again 1991.

This is a once in a lifetime, for the Twins, to do something really special.

Good young players coming up to feed and continue on.

Free and clear as you can get payroll.

If Texas can dump A-Rod, (I know they ate 1/2 of the contract), the Twins can dump any Big Signing they make.

I want C4 back and willing to pay for it.  
I get nervous about Rodon, but he has proven it for 2 years now and is Left-Handed.

The extra people we to fill spots, along with anyone we sign, can always be traded to minimize your losses OR to add additional pieces.

I like Kepler, but unless he actively works to improve his batting and the coaches work on it too, then trade the Gold Glove-ish outfielder and get some pieces back.  Same with others.

I am all in favor of dialog, but Doc makes a good case.  
 

Go Paul Bunyon Big or Go Back to being a AAAA team.

[baul0010]

1 hour ago, terrydactyls said:

In my old-man opinion, right now is the time for the Pohlad's to throw caution to the wind, up the payroll to $170M, and go all in on being  top 5 team for the rest of the 2020's.  

It would be great.  But, from all accounts, the Pohlad's don't ever throw caution to the wind.  They are business people.  It's rare to find the Mark Cuban willing to go all in to win.

[EGFTShaw]

8 minutes ago, baul0010 said:

It would be great.  But, from all accounts, the Pohlad's don't ever throw caution to the wind.  They are business people.  It's rare to find the Mark Cuban willing to go all in to win.

And at $170M it would not be in the Top 5 in spending as long as you have the Dodgers, Yanks and Mets as well as usually the Cubs, RSox and the way the GM in SD is going, the Padres.  May slip out of the Top 10 in payroll in a year or two.

[EGFTShaw]

Here's an off the wall thought, based on a comment above about our young players.

Royce could move to RF to replace Kepler and fill in for the days off in CF for Buxton.  An outfield of Buxton, Royce, AK, Wallner and Gordon sounds pretty nice to me.  Gordon and Royce can play infield positions as well.  Wallner/AK/Buxton can all take turns at DH.

Infield of C4, Miranda, Arraez, Polanco(he alternates years between VeryGood/Hurt so next year is a VG year)

Now about the pitching... ?

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

Interesting take Doc.  I think that the Twins win either way.  If they sign CC4, then they are locked in at that position and it should be relatively painless with cheaper younger players in play for multiple years to come.  I would just hope that we do not lose a super star player because we cannot afford him when FA hits so the FO needs to think that through..

The other way, if the Twins do not sign CC4, is also OK as we have young guns in queue which means we can spend on pitching (I'm hoping for a few BP studs).

Either way we will be fine.

[terrydactyls]

2 hours ago, rv78 said:

I'm all for signing Rodon and Contreras. Just not sold on Correa only because of the long-term committment it will take. If we could get him for another 1 or 2 years I'd say definitely, but unless other teams punt on him like they did last year, I don't see that happening. I want the position open for Lewis or Lee going forward. If Lewis goes to the outfield because SS is blocked by Correa I'll cringe everytime he goes into the wall. Where does Lee play when he's ready? Kepler, Urshela, Polanco will be gone before too long. I see Julien going to 2B. Miranda at 3B. Arraez at 1B. Larnach, Buxton, Kirilloff, Gordon, Martin, Celestino in the OF. Lewis and Lee both at SS? Probably not. Does one displace Miranda at 3B forcing him to play 1B and DH with Arraez? If Rocco continues with his rotating lineup on an everyday basis they'll all play 3 or 4 games a week. Do we really want Correa blocking these young guys or forcing them to positions they are not use to playing. We already have Miranda at 1B with arguments he shouldn't be there? How good was Sano in RF or 1B? Not very good. I say pass on Correa if it takes more than 1 year to get him but use the money to add Rodon and Contreras. 

A couple of minor items.  Lewis played 46 innings in CF in the fall league and didn't get hurt.  All this worry about another injury is just waiting to happen (adding the traditional IMHO) is silly.  And his first injury was because he (a Texan) decided to walk outside in an ice storm and see what it was all about.  No connection to baseball.  I lived in Texas for 22 years and I know how idiotic they get when snow and ice are present.  And as for Correa blocking talent, both Martin and Lewis can be oufielders if necessary.  They have both played there in the past.  No one knows if Kirilloff or Larnach will come back healthy.  If they, and all the other young players you mentioned, become good MLB players, then starting trading people to fix any weaknesses you might have.  Too much talent is rarely a problem for any sports franchise.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

2 hours ago, rv78 said:

I'm all for signing Rodon and Contreras. Just not sold on Correa only because of the long-term committment it will take. If we could get him for another 1 or 2 years I'd say definitely, but unless other teams punt on him like they did last year, I don't see that happening. I want the position open for Lewis or Lee going forward. If Lewis goes to the outfield because SS is blocked by Correa I'll cringe everytime he goes into the wall. Where does Lee play when he's ready? Kepler, Urshela, Polanco will be gone before too long. I see Julien going to 2B. Miranda at 3B. Arraez at 1B. Larnach, Buxton, Kirilloff, Gordon, Martin, Celestino in the OF. Lewis and Lee both at SS? Probably not. Does one displace Miranda at 3B forcing him to play 1B and DH with Arraez? If Rocco continues with his rotating lineup on an everyday basis they'll all play 3 or 4 games a week. Do we really want Correa blocking these young guys or forcing them to positions they are not use to playing. We already have Miranda at 1B with arguments he shouldn't be there? How good was Sano in RF or 1B? Not very good. I say pass on Correa if it takes more than 1 year to get him but use the money to add Rodon and Contreras. 

Why not sign a potential future HOF SS and trade some of the "overload" for pitching? 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

1 hour ago, EGFTShaw said:

Here's an off the wall thought, based on a comment above about our young players.

Royce could move to RF to replace Kepler and fill in for the days off in CF for Buxton.  An outfield of Buxton, Royce, AK, Wallner and Gordon sounds pretty nice to me.  Gordon and Royce can play infield positions as well.  Wallner/AK/Buxton can all take turns at DH.

Infield of C4, Miranda, Arraez, Polanco(he alternates years between VeryGood/Hurt so next year is a VG year)

Now about the pitching... ?

Makes perfect sense to me. I say, sign Correa and be grateful that there are some young, potentially very good players to play other positions or to be traded for pitching and a catcher or two.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

2 hours ago, EGFTShaw said:

Baseball is weird.

But I love constructing teams and have been a Twins fans since days of TonyO, then Killer and Carew.  But Tony was my favorite until he hurt his knees which given my age only a couple of seasons.  But also, Cesar "Go Ahead and Try to Miss Me with A Pitch" Tovar.  Kaat, Bert's Curve and then it goes downhill until 1987 and then again 1991.

This is a once in a lifetime, for the Twins, to do something really special.

Good young players coming up to feed and continue on.

Free and clear as you can get payroll.

If Texas can dump A-Rod, (I know they ate 1/2 of the contract), the Twins can dump any Big Signing they make.

I want C4 back and willing to pay for it.  
I get nervous about Rodon, but he has proven it for 2 years now and is Left-Handed.

The extra people we to fill spots, along with anyone we sign, can always be traded to minimize your losses OR to add additional pieces.

I like Kepler, but unless he actively works to improve his batting and the coaches work on it too, then trade the Gold Glove-ish outfielder and get some pieces back.  Same with others.

I am all in favor of dialog, but Doc makes a good case.  
 

Go Paul Bunyon Big or Go Back to being a AAAA team.

It would help the cities of Minnie-St Paul and the state of Minnesota ( and me) to have the Twins contending annually. This doing "just barely enough to be average" is a sure recipe for mediocrity. There is a reason scores are kept in baseball. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

3 hours ago, rv78 said:

I'm all for signing Rodon and Contreras. Just not sold on Correa only because of the long-term committment it will take. If we could get him for another 1 or 2 years I'd say definitely, but unless other teams punt on him like they did last year, I don't see that happening. I want the position open for Lewis or Lee going forward. If Lewis goes to the outfield because SS is blocked by Correa I'll cringe everytime he goes into the wall. Where does Lee play when he's ready? Kepler, Urshela, Polanco will be gone before too long. I see Julien going to 2B. Miranda at 3B. Arraez at 1B. Larnach, Buxton, Kirilloff, Gordon, Martin, Celestino in the OF. Lewis and Lee both at SS? Probably not. Does one displace Miranda at 3B forcing him to play 1B and DH with Arraez? If Rocco continues with his rotating lineup on an everyday basis they'll all play 3 or 4 games a week. Do we really want Correa blocking these young guys or forcing them to positions they are not use to playing. We already have Miranda at 1B with arguments he shouldn't be there? How good was Sano in RF or 1B? Not very good. I say pass on Correa if it takes more than 1 year to get him but use the money to add Rodon and Contreras. 

Sign all three of them and we can enjoy spring training, the season (remember Gardy's quote: "It's a looooong  season"...and that is especially true when it is a loooong, mediocre season) the playoffs and the World Series. 

[rv78]

53 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

A couple of minor items.  Lewis played 46 innings in CF in the fall league and didn't get hurt.  All this worry about another injury is just waiting to happen (adding the traditional IMHO) is silly.  And his first injury was because he (a Texan) decided to walk outside in an ice storm and see what it was all about.  No connection to baseball.  I lived in Texas for 22 years and I know how idiotic they get when snow and ice are present.  And as for Correa blocking talent, both Martin and Lewis can be oufielders if necessary.  They have both played there in the past.  No one knows if Kirilloff or Larnach will come back healthy.  If they, and all the other young players you mentioned, become good MLB players, then starting trading people to fix any weaknesses you might have.  Too much talent is rarely a problem for any sports franchise.

I agree the worry is silly. It however will be the first thing that a lot of Twins fans will think of the first time they see Lewis in the outfield again. I actually don't see Lewis sticking at SS and Lee taking that spot pushing Lewis somewhere else. As for Correa money, I just think it would be better off spent elsewhere, like for Rodon AND Contreras. If it takes roughly the same amount of money to get those 2 verses 1 Correa, I think that 2 is better than 1 in this case. 

[EGFTShaw]

10 minutes ago, rv78 said:

I agree the worry is silly. It however will be the first thing that a lot of Twins fans will think of the first time they see Lewis in the outfield again. I actually don't see Lewis sticking at SS and Lee taking that spot pushing Lewis somewhere else. As for Correa money, I just think it would be better off spent elsewhere, like for Rodon AND Contreras. If it takes roughly the same amount of money to get those 2 verses 1 Correa, I think that 2 is better than 1 in this case. 

Just not sure where that elsewhere will be?

Do not disagree with the idea or concept, but there are things that weigh inC4's favor.

1) We have an experience with him as a player, leader and club house presence. It went well unlike how a former 3rd baseman who came to play but ruffled a lot of teammates and there was a relief when he was dealt.

2) Taking a stab at the elsewhere aspect...my guess is pitching?  If we could get a Bonafide Ace, a shutdown guy who stop losing streaks, then I am open.

Other than that, I am not sure what else is going to really help us more than C4.

Open to hear any suggestions.

C4 checks all the boxes that I want in a player, would also signify that the Twins are serious players from time to time, except as Doc mentioned someone could blow us out of the water.  

I will even go shorter term higher AV if it gets the job done.  Then you're not paying for the potential downside years.  Some players age very well, Cruz, NRyan, Mad Max, Verlander but most do not.

I am not being a NYY fan here, (still my Evil Empire), just would love to see some options so avid teleworking GM I can think about it.

[EGFTShaw]

Just now, EGFTShaw said:

Just not sure where that elsewhere will be?

Do not disagree with the idea or concept, but there are things that weigh inC4's favor.

1) We have an experience with him as a player, leader and club house presence. It went well unlike how a former 3rd baseman who came to play but ruffled a lot of teammates and there was a relief when he was dealt.

2) Taking a stab at the elsewhere aspect...my guess is pitching?  If we could get a Bonafide Ace, a shutdown guy who stop losing streaks, then I am open.

Other than that, I am not sure what else is going to really help us more than C4.

Open to hear any suggestions.

C4 checks all the boxes that I want in a player, would also signify that the Twins are serious players from time to time, except as Doc mentioned someone could blow us out of the water.  

I will even go shorter term higher AV if it gets the job done.  Then you're not paying for the potential downside years.  Some players age very well, Cruz, NRyan, Mad Max, Verlander but most do not.

I am not being a NYY fan here, (still my Evil Empire), just would love to see some options so avid teleworking GM I can think about it.

my bad, but I missed Rodon/Contreras note.  I would take C4 over those two if only because WC I don't believe is worth the $$s and Rodon vs C4 one to one falls on the C4 side.

[DocBauer]

12 hours ago, weitz41 said:

I be thrilled if it happened. He not only is a very good SS but improves the whole team with his leadership and baseball IQ. Having 2 of the 3 most difficult positions locked up long term would be great and it frees up Lee, Lewis and Martin to play other positions

And this is where my mind has been drifting lately.

I mentioned a year or so ago about the possibility of Lewis moving to 3B. I was surprised that I got pushback from some that moving Lewis to 3B...I might have even mentioned 2B...was a "waste" of his talent and potential. And I never understood that. That's like saying the Yankees moving Rodriguez to 3B to keep Jeter at SS was a "waste". If Lewis could be a fine ML SS, but you had Correa locked in, what is wrong with taking all of that talent and potential and having a stud 3B or 2B from him? What about Lee manning 3B and Lewis at 2B with Miranda at 1B, each able to cover other spots as necessary, with Arraez able to play multiple positions as well as having an open DH, and if AK ever gets RIGHT, he can play 1B/DH as well and suddenly you have room for everyone. 

I see Martin as a better version of Marwin Gonzalez. He could be an every day player across the OF, still be able to fill in at 3B and 2B, and be an emergency SS option. The one guy who might get pushed out is Julien, unless Lewis got moved to the OF.

Isn't your best option to have really good players at every spot and lineup versatility? I mean, with a slightly different construction, that can happen without Correa, of course. But if you did have Correa, there are endless possibilities here how to build the roster/lineup. So I think we're on the same page.

[weitz41]

9 hours ago, DocBauer said:

And this is where my mind has been drifting lately.

I mentioned a year or so ago about the possibility of Lewis moving to 3B. I was surprised that I got pushback from some that moving Lewis to 3B...I might have even mentioned 2B...was a "waste" of his talent and potential. And I never understood that. That's like saying the Yankees moving Rodriguez to 3B to keep Jeter at SS was a "waste". If Lewis could be a fine ML SS, but you had Correa locked in, what is wrong with taking all of that talent and potential and having a stud 3B or 2B from him? What about Lee manning 3B and Lewis at 2B with Miranda at 1B, each able to cover other spots as necessary, with Arraez able to play multiple positions as well as having an open DH, and if AK ever gets RIGHT, he can play 1B/DH as well and suddenly you have room for everyone. 

I see Martin as a better version of Marwin Gonzalez. He could be an every day player across the OF, still be able to fill in at 3B and 2B, and be an emergency SS option. The one guy who might get pushed out is Julien, unless Lewis got moved to the OF.

Isn't your best option to have really good players at every spot and lineup versatility? I mean, with a slightly different construction, that can happen without Correa, of course. But if you did have Correa, there are endless possibilities here how to build the roster/lineup. So I think we're on the same page.

That's where my thoughts went if you have CF and SS locked in for the next 5+ seasons. Another example of Lewis/Lee moving to 3rd would be Bregman of the Astros. That on paper should be a pretty good team for a long run.

[rv78]

Sorry, I just don't understand the Correa committment for big money for many years if it hamstrings the opportunity to sign a few other guys that strengthen the team in other spots. How many potential SS do we have coming? Lewis, Lee, Martin, Miller. How many potential catchers do we have coming? Nothing compared to SS. How many potential Ace pitchers do we have coming? Nothing compared to SS. One can honestly say SS has become a strength in the farm system. Sure thay can play elsewhere but last time I looked they can't catch or be a top pitcher. My money would go to Rodon and Contreras. For what it's worth, Correa didn't lead the team this year to the playoffs and the Astros got there without him.... just saying.

[Trov]

That really is the question, one are you willing to accept years where he is very overpaid, hopefully on 2 to 3 years, for hopefully 6 to 7 years of getting paid fair to slightly overpaid?  I am no expert, and cannot predict how he will age, or how a transition to 3b would like in 4 to 5 years.  If you are convinced he will still be putting up 5 plus WAR in his mid-30's I say break the bank.

However, if you are worried that in say 3 years you are moving him to 3b, and he is putting up 1 to 2 WAR because his defense fall off the cliff and so has his bat.  The thing to remember is he has never been a super offense guy, he has been very good on offense for SS, but compared to other offensive positions he has been decent but not a superstar. However, he has always been generally consistent across his career.  The fact that he has done this as a plus defender, to one of the best, for now.  He has great value.

It is possible at end of career they can make trades to dump his pay if it becomes to big of an anker.  Not ideal, but if you can draft, trade, and develop well, it should not be terrible down the road.  If you think your team can be a regular success over next 3 to 5 years, break the bank and worry about 5 plus years from now later.

[Squirrel]

On 11/2/2022 at 8:26 AM, rv78 said:

Sorry, I just don't understand the Correa committment for big money for many years if it hamstrings the opportunity to sign a few other guys that strengthen the team in other spots. How many potential SS do we have coming? Lewis, Lee, Martin, Miller. How many potential catchers do we have coming? Nothing compared to SS. How many potential Ace pitchers do we have coming? Nothing compared to SS. One can honestly say SS has become a strength in the farm system. Sure thay can play elsewhere but last time I looked they can't catch or be a top pitcher. My money would go to Rodon and Contreras. For what it's worth, Correa didn't lead the team this year to the playoffs and the Astros got there without him.... just saying.

I don't think this will hamstring them for years to come for many reasons. They have the wiggle room this year, they have a lot of young players with team control for several years, and they get to sign a new media contract after next season. Now is the time. If we only play for the future we will always be playing for the future.

Potential SS are not MLB awesome SS and won't necessarily become MLB awesome SS and may never even become MLB SS. Every SS drafted is only a SS until they aren't. Lewis has basically been out of baseball for a couple of years due to pandemic and injury. Up until last year, many thought that he wouldn't stick at short. He certainly isn't going to fill that void next year and who knows years to come. Yes, Lee has done great so far in the minors. In the  minors. He certainly looks like a player who might stick at short and be something, but that isn't going to be next year. And we have seen it so many times how that doesn't necessarily translate and more often then not, SS prospects are moved to other positions. Signing Correa doesn't block them. Either they change positions or are traded to fill another hole. 

[rv78]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

I don't think this will hamstring them for years to come for many reasons. They have the wiggle room this year, they have a lot of young players with team control for several years, and they get to sign a new media contract after next season. Now is the time. If we only play for the future we will always be playing for the future.

Potential SS are not MLB awesome SS and won't necessarily become MLB awesome SS and may never even become MLB SS. Every SS drafted is only a SS until they aren't. Lewis has basically been out of baseball for a couple of years due to pandemic and injury. Up until last year, many thought that he wouldn't stick at short. He certainly isn't going to fill that void next year and who knows years to come. Yes, Lee has done great so far in the minors. In the  minors. He certainly looks like a player who might stick at short and be something, but that isn't going to be next year. And we have seen it so many times how that doesn't necessarily translate and more often then not, SS prospects are moved to other positions. Signing Correa doesn't block them. Either they change positions or are traded to fill another hole. 

I will stand by my reasoning that the money would be better spent elsewhere. The Astros are a prime example of that. Yes. SS is an important position to have a quality player at but if you fill your other positions with capable players that can hit and field, run and throw, and pitch effectively then the best SS isn't and shouldn't need to be a priority.

[Squirrel]

3 minutes ago, rv78 said:

I will stand by my reasoning that the money would be better spent elsewhere. The Astros are a prime example of that. Yes. SS is an important position to have a quality player at but if you fill your other positions with capable players that can hit and field, run and throw, and pitch effectively then the best SS isn't and shouldn't need to be a priority.

Okay ... but then we need to fill those positions and we don't have that in house, either, and will have to spend to do it anyway. And, I don't think signing Correa prohibits that from happening. That was my point. It doesn't hamstring us, imo. Now, we might not be able to sign the top catcher, the top shortstop, the top pitcher and the top reliever ... but I think we could sign, say, Correa and Rodon and be way better off than counting on Lewis or Lee or Martin. Especially with the shift ban next season, I would feel better knowing we have an awesome SS, not someone who might, some day, possibly, but you never know prospect

[rv78]

4 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Okay ... but then we need to fill those positions and we don't have that in house, either, and will have to spend to do it anyway. And, I don't think signing Correa prohibits that from happening. That was my point. It doesn't hamstring us, imo. Now, we might not be able to sign the top catcher, the top shortstop, the top pitcher and the top reliever ... but I think we could sign, say, Correa and Rodon and be way better off than counting on Lewis or Lee or Martin. Especially with the shift ban next season, I would feel better knowing we have an awesome SS, not someone who might, some day, possibly, but you never know prospect

I never said to go with a prospect in 2023. I said a 1 or 2 year deal would be fine. And I also said unfortunately that Correa won't be looking for that type of deal. Doesn't mean a different big league SS wouldn't fill the bill for a year or two until 1 of those prospects is ready to take over. If it doesn't happen then you are in no way any worse off then you are now and in the meantime you added a quaility catcher (Contreras) and a stud pitcher (Rodon).