Offensive overload of Ace Articles and discussion

[notoriousgod71]

The twins only two postseason wins in the last 20 years were started by an ace. 

 

We've seen that you can have a historic offense and still lose because the other team has a better starter than us .

 

An ace won't be dominant 100 percent of the time just like you might get an epic start out of nick Blackburn but the odds are more favorable with a Johan.

[Vanimal46]

17 minutes ago, notoriousgod71 said:

We've seen that you can have a historic offense and still lose because the other team has a better starter than us .

In 2019, you would think a historic offense would score more than 7 runs total in 3 games. 

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Everybody subscribes to this, I can't imagine anybody saying hey let the lesser pitchers pitch more.

The issue with this is reality. Some guys are as successful as they are because they are limited to one inning some two. Look at Jax (and maybe Sands) when asked to do less they actually could do more. Some guys are really good pitching 4 or 5 innings full effort but have nothing left for the 6th and on. Some guys are building arm strength because of injuries or what not.

You may not realize it but the Twins pretty much did this year what you are wanting. They felt Archer was better than anybody else they had for 4 innings (they tried for 5 and he didn't have it) they though Bundy was the best guy they had for 5 innings,

With that said, I agree a right handed outfielder should be number 1 priority.

This is a discussion that was intended to take place on a different thread that accidentally spilled over to this one. But if you go back to it... You will see that I clearly type "How many innings can each pitcher throw effectively is the question". I'm talking about maximizing what they are capable of.  Please understand that I understand that each pitcher is unique. I understand that they possess different capabilities either natural or nurtured. 

It's hard to make any progress with my goofy ideas if the person responding to them doesn't believe that I understand a rather elementary concept such as the difference between a max effort bullpen guy and crafty starter. 

I tried once to talk about the platooning of Kyle Garlick and the response I get is on the value of platooning. I have always understood the value of platooning but this is where I have to spin my wheels if I try to advance the conversation as a thought exercise. 

Anyway, this is a discussion intended for another thread. And No... The Twins did not do what I was talking about. And No... very few subscribe to it because Bundy is still eating innings and relievers are still throwing an inning at a time. 

[Shobae]

It's interesting how much talk there is here about the semantics of the term ace, number 2 starter etc. I'd never encountered it much in analytic writing/discussions. I do think people are focusing too much on the whole ace conversation however, baseball is a team game. The angles have an ace who is also a top 10 hitter in the AL, yet they are 4th place in a middling division. Reason is when you remove the two centennial talents from the team you're looking at a team around the quality of the nationals. So even if the twins bring it degrom and he throws 180 2.2 RA/9 innings doesn't matter if you've got 4 guys on the IL and AAAA starters throwing bp every 5 days.
I understand the argument that in the playoffs having elite starters is very helpful but I think the twins main focus has to be getting to the playoffs first. Also it's not the only way to win the post season, the 2015 royals won with their pen, defense and base running. The braves last season didn't have the greatest pitching in the playoffs. Whether or not the offense should be an area of concern is debatable I think, certainly this is a small sample if I've seen one. The twins had a top 10 offense this season (by wRC+), but we all know they couldn't score runs. Luckily for us, to my knowledge, there is no predictive value to clutch performance.
So I'm gonna agree that there's too much ace talk here but I'm not bearish on the twins offense.

[stringer bell]

Good topic and discussion. I do want to point out that Jeffers only had 20 at bats after the All-Star break. He shouldn't have been included given your original minimums.

[Mark G]

13 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Interesting discussion topic, thanks for starting it.

To me, even as an analytics nerd, it's really simple to know where your weakness is (scoring vs preventing runs): how do you compare against the league as a whole when it comes to how many runs you score and how many runs you allow. Simple and easy. Runs scored/game and runs allowed/game.

Year- Runs per game/League Avg/% better or worse - runs allowed per game/league avg/% better or worse
2016- 4.46/4.47/<1% worse - 5.49/4.47/23% worse
2017- 5.03/4.65/8% better - 4.86/4.64/5% worse
2018- 4.55/4.45/2% better - 4.78/4.45/3% worse
2019- 5.80/4.83/20% better - 4.65/4.83/4% better
2020- 4.48/4.64/3% worse - 3.58/4.64/23% better
2021- 4.50/4.53/1% worse - 5.15/4.53/14% worse
2022- 4.30/4.28/<1% better - 4.22/4.28/1% better

Make what you will of that info. Things that stand out to me are that while the offense was obviously great in 2019, the pitching wasn't brutal by any means. 2020 would be a fun pitching line to have more often. Did Rowson have some sort of special connection with Twins players? His years (17-19) were the best they had, but his Marlins teams have been brutally bad offensively. 2021 was such a disaster. 2022 was basically a league average team on both sides of the ball with the pitching actually being slightly better than the offense. But both sides of the ball clearly need to improve.

It is interesting to see the difference in each year and how each side of the ball did.  Sometimes, though, it can be a little misleading if all you see is the averages year by year, meaning they gave up an average of 4.22 runs per game in '22 for example, and scored an average of 4.30 runs per game.  Now I don't know the numbers for previous years off the top of my head, but last year we scored 3 runs or less in 48+ percent of our games and 4 runs or more in 51+ percent.  We also won 48+ percent of our games and lost 51+ percent of our games.  If we score 8 runs in one game and 1 the next, we average 4.5 runs per game (slightly over league average), but I bet we come out 1-1.  

Now that can probably be said for most teams, obviously, but we really need to add a proven run producer that can help balance that out, as Nelson Cruz did when he was here.  That 4th run (or more?) per game clearly makes a difference over 162 games.  And it would be safe to guess one more stud RP might have make the difference in several games as well.  Sometimes a single addition on each side of the ball can make a difference in a season; but I always hope for 3 or 4.  Thanks for the look back; it is interesting to see the ups and downs.  

[Riverbrian]

15 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I get that, and don't necessarily disagree. So, skip the numbers, but still use Berríos as a benchmark ... career Berríos, not last season Berríos. If we can get one better, great, if we can get more the same, great, if we can a few just a notch below, good. But I don't want to sink too far. I want more pitchers rostered who can get us to 6 innings, not 4 or 5. If I have to settle for one or two pitchers that give a quality 4 or 5 innings, okay ... I don't want to get greedy. But then we need to have a BP that is quite outstanding, imo. That's the point. Ace? To me that describes a very specific pitcher, of which there aren't many, and no one the Twins will pay for. Can we identify the potential to be that or almost as good for a season or two? Let's hope. But ...

Anyway, back to your post, and it's a rather simplistic point I'm making ... we need to focus on all parts and get them to work together. But I think there is a philosophy among many here, and why I believe pitching and ace talk, tend to get a lot of attention ... good pitching beats good hitting. And it's not necessarily something I subscribe to ... I think a team needs a balance of parts (which should never be confused with a mediocrity of parts). Focussing on getting great pitching while neglecting hitting won't get us far, imo; and focussing on great hitting, neglecting pitching won't get us far, either. The focus can't be on any singular part.

I've often said "I want 26 guys who can play". I'm talking about that balance you mention when I say that. I think we are on the same page. 

Good pitching beats good hitting is a great catch phrase and all and sometimes it does. However, those inclined to make that catch phrase gospel will probably whistle right past Justin Verlander and two tough starts out of three this post season despite an ace like 1.75 ERA during the regular season.

Those inclined will probably go on to insist that we sign Verlander because we can't win in the playoffs without an ACE. Don't get me wrong... I'd love to have Verlander next year but sometimes the offense is going to have to beat that ACE and sometimes they do. 

When you get to the playoffs, you will want all portions of your game because you don't know which one will bring you home or what combinations will advance you to the next round. You might need pitching to beat the Yankees in round one and then need to out slug the Orioles in the next round. So... I'd like 26 guys who can play. 

Balance... I agree and I think the balance is off with the hitting behind the pitching side as things stand right now. 

[Riverbrian]

15 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Why are we only looking at 2nd half #s? and why are we looking at ERA? What good is ERA if many aren't giving us enough innings? A lot of our pitchers were injured most of the season. What I dislike is people spinning stats to fit their scenerio with out looking at under-lying conditions.

 

Why are we only looking at 2nd half #s? 

That's when the wheels came off, that's where we ended the season which then propels forward into next season. That's when we really needed to compete with the Guardians. 

and why are we looking at ERA? What good is ERA if many aren't giving us enough innings? A lot of our pitchers were injured most of the season

Simplicity.  

What I dislike is people spinning stats to fit their scenerio with out looking at under-lying conditions.

What have I ever done to make people think that I don't understand under-lying conditions. Do I need to make my post longer by listing everybody that was on the disabled list to prove that I understand that we had a lot of people on the disabled list? 

 

 

[mikelink45]

Mike Trout does not make the playoffs even with Ohtani.  Verlander has never won a Series game.  Aces, Superstars, are nice, but this is a team game.  In crucial moments your best might not be scheduled to bat or may not be available to pitch.  It is about building an all around team.   Quality and Quantity.  

[wsnydes]

18 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I don't have a problem with that with one caveat ... they still absolutely have to have a high end BP. Will the pieces we have stay healthy and be what we need? I'd like to get one or two more. And I'd like Correa. And a hitter in RF. And a different hitting coach. That's not too much to ask for, is it?

Correct on the bullpen.  If the FO every wants to truly compete, a lockdown bullpen is a must.  I wonder how prices for relievers will actually go down though when the league is moving towards shorter starts.  That makes quality relievers an even harder get because of demand.  The supply simply isn't there to keep prices down.

[LVTwinsfan]

20 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I understand the Value of a so-called "Ace" and I understand why these articles are written. However, Let's compare the OPS AND ERA Post All-Star Break while the wheels were coming off.  

Post All Star Break - Looking at 16 Hitters and 16 Pitchers -- The ones who we went to battle with during a pennant chase.  

Above Average Hitters 5 - Above Average Pitchers 9 

Average Hitters 2 - Average Pitchers 2

Below Average Hitters 9 - Below Average Pitchers 5 

 

Post All-Star Break this is the Twins OPS production at the plate. (49 AB's to Qualify)

Above 2022 League Average: 

Buxton - .866 (Often Injured)

Correa - .866 (Gone)

Urshela - .829

Gordon - .780

Miranda - .760

2022 League Average:

Arraez - .715

Wallner - .709

Below 2022 League Average:

Polanco - .657

Cave - .644 (Gone)

Sanchez - .620 (Gone)

Celestino - .582

Garlick - .522

Leon - .502 

Contreras - .482

Jeffers - .477

Kepler - .468

Palacios - .382 (Gone)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post All-Star Break on the Mound: 

We had 9 who were above 2022 League Average ERA. (Over 21 IP to Qualify):

Above 2022 League Average:

Duran - 1.05

Thielbar - 1.50

Ober - 2.01

Gray - 2:38

Moran - 3.27

Pagan - 3.56 (Yeah I know - But his post all-star break numbers are his numbers)

Jax - 3.62

Fulmer - 3.70 (Gone)

Varland - 3.81

2022 League Average:

Ryan - 4.14

Lopez - 4.37

Below 2022 League Average:

Aaron Sanchez - 4.71 (Gone)

Dylan Bundy - 5.13 (Most Likely Gone)

Chris Archer - 6.63 (Gone)

Josh Winder - 6.65

Trevor Megill - 6.84

 

With all of these Ace Articles and Subsequent Ace Discussions - Are we focused on the right section of the roster? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Post all star break is less than half the season. The mere fact that you have Pagan on your list says everything

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Balance... I agree and I think the balance is off with the hitting behind the pitching side as things stand right now. 

See, I don’t think they are that far off from one another. But they are ‘mediocrely’ balanced. We need better pitching … a starter and one or maybe two RP. And we need a hitting and good fielding SS, and a good right fielder who can hit. And we need a good defensive catcher. And we need health. And we need the right coaching.

[Riverbrian]

17 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Interesting discussion topic, thanks for starting it.

To me, even as an analytics nerd, it's really simple to know where your weakness is (scoring vs preventing runs): how do you compare against the league as a whole when it comes to how many runs you score and how many runs you allow. Simple and easy. Runs scored/game and runs allowed/game.

Year- Runs per game/League Avg/% better or worse - runs allowed per game/league avg/% better or worse
2016- 4.46/4.47/<1% worse - 5.49/4.47/23% worse
2017- 5.03/4.65/8% better - 4.86/4.64/5% worse
2018- 4.55/4.45/2% better - 4.78/4.45/3% worse
2019- 5.80/4.83/20% better - 4.65/4.83/4% better
2020- 4.48/4.64/3% worse - 3.58/4.64/23% better
2021- 4.50/4.53/1% worse - 5.15/4.53/14% worse
2022- 4.30/4.28/<1% better - 4.22/4.28/1% better

Make what you will of that info. Things that stand out to me are that while the offense was obviously great in 2019, the pitching wasn't brutal by any means. 2020 would be a fun pitching line to have more often. Did Rowson have some sort of special connection with Twins players? His years (17-19) were the best they had, but his Marlins teams have been brutally bad offensively. 2021 was such a disaster. 2022 was basically a league average team on both sides of the ball with the pitching actually being slightly better than the offense. But both sides of the ball clearly need to improve.

Thank you for this post. It actually advances the conversation and I really appreciate that. 

The numbers you list are full season while I used post all-star break.

Let's use my format for the 1st half. I'll take the top 16 by utilization on each side again. 

OPS (2022 League Average was .704) 40 AB's to make the top 16 for this discussion

Above 2022 League Average (8 Pre - 5 Post)

Lewis - .867

Arraez - .856

Garlick - .853

Buxton - .824

Correa - .803

Polanco - .786

Kepler - .739

Miranda - 737

League Average (4 Pre - 2 Post)

Urshela - .718

Larnach - .712

Kirilloff - .711

Gordon - .704

Below League Average (4 Pre - 9 Post (taking out Jeffers ?))

Sanchez - .685

Jeffers - .666

Celestino - .652

Sano -  .379

ERA (league average 3.96) 20 IP to make the top 16 for this discussion

Above 2022 League Average (8 Pre - 9 Post)

Megill - 2.25

Duran - 2.36

Cotton - 2.76

Ryan - 2.99

Jax - 3.20

Archer - 3.41

Gray - 3.71

Winder - 3.77

Average (4 Pre - 2 Post)

Duffey - 3.96 (Yeah I know but the numbers are the numbers)

Ober - 4.01

Smeltzer - 4.02

Paddack - 4.03

Below League Average (4 Pre - 5 Post)

Bundy - 4.71

Thielbar - 4.84

Smith - 4.88

Pagan - 5.23

While the names changed here and there - Collectively the pitching held serve from the 1st half to 2nd half. The offense didn't. The Twins were 50-44 pre-all star break and they were 28-40 post. 

You and I both know that injuries played an enormous role in the under-lying conditions causing this offensive discrepancy. So let's plug the injured names back in to start 2023 in order to build that roster. 

Unavailable due to injury during the 2nd half collapse: Trevor Larnach and Alex Kirilloff

Throw in the often injured no reason to believe they won't get hurt again: Byron Buxton and Royce Lewis

Now place your top hitter Carlos Correa in Free Agency because he's gone. 

You are starting 2023 with Arraez, Miranda, Urshela and Gordon as your stable 4 based on 2022.  Hoping that Polanco and Kepler rebound to make it a stable 6 and that Buxton stays healthy to make it 7. 

We don't know what Larnach or Kirilloff are at this point but we are putting way too much on their young shoulders to keep our offensive heads above water.  

We need a bat more than we need an Ace. 

 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

11 hours ago, Shobae said:

It's interesting how much talk there is here about the semantics of the term ace, number 2 starter etc. I'd never encountered it much in analytic writing/discussions. I do think people are focusing too much on the whole ace conversation however, baseball is a team game. The angles have an ace who is also a top 10 hitter in the AL, yet they are 4th place in a middling division. Reason is when you remove the two centennial talents from the team you're looking at a team around the quality of the nationals. So even if the twins bring it degrom and he throws 180 2.2 RA/9 innings doesn't matter if you've got 4 guys on the IL and AAAA starters throwing bp every 5 days.
I understand the argument that in the playoffs having elite starters is very helpful but I think the twins main focus has to be getting to the playoffs first. Also it's not the only way to win the post season, the 2015 royals won with their pen, defense and base running. The braves last season didn't have the greatest pitching in the playoffs. Whether or not the offense should be an area of concern is debatable I think, certainly this is a small sample if I've seen one. The twins had a top 10 offense this season (by wRC+), but we all know they couldn't score runs. Luckily for us, to my knowledge, there is no predictive value to clutch performance.
So I'm gonna agree that there's too much ace talk here but I'm not bearish on the twins offense.

Excellent Post

[Riverbrian]

11 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Good topic and discussion. I do want to point out that Jeffers only had 20 at bats after the All-Star break. He shouldn't have been included given your original minimums.

Thanks. It was an Oops. ?

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, LVTwinsfan said:

Post all star break is less than half the season. The mere fact that you have Pagan on your list says everything

I understand that Post all-star break is less than half the season. 68 games to be exact. 

I didn't place Pagan on my list. I've posted my personal feelings on Pagan multiple times.

Pagan placed himself there. 

[Doctor Gast]

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Why are we only looking at 2nd half #s? 

That's when the wheels came off, that's where we ended the season which then propels forward into next season. That's when we really needed to compete with the Guardians. 

and why are we looking at ERA? What good is ERA if many aren't giving us enough innings? A lot of our pitchers were injured most of the season

Simplicity.  

What I dislike is people spinning stats to fit their scenerio with out looking at under-lying conditions.

What have I ever done to make people think that I don't understand under-lying conditions. Do I need to make my post longer by listing everybody that was on the disabled list to prove that I understand that we had a lot of people on the disabled list? 

 

 

I apologize for coming across harsh. But I have a problem with fans that use past & bias stats to evaluate players w/o looking at conditions that have been resolved or changed. Maybe I misunderstood the reason for your article.

Like my past post I agreed with you that actually we don't need an ace even though our rotation is weak because our greatest pitching resource is the spot starter/ long relief position, Long relief easily makes  up for any problems we may have in the rotation or short relief, they act as a shock absorber. But management completely ignores this resource so that's why fans look at "aces". (I'm very strict too on what is referred to as an ace.) To make up for gaps between SP & short relief,

If you are looking at who we really need to start in the beginning of '23 then let's look at the OF- Buxton, Kepler, Larnach, Kiriloff, Gordon, with Celestino, Garlic & Wallner all will be 100% ready. Pretty impressive but if you want to replace Kepler with a RH bat, good but no priority.

INF- If Correa opts out we'll have a gaping hole so that's our absolute priority especially defense. 2B we have Polanco, although our depth is shallow there now, Polanco is steady. 3B & 1B we have covered. Catching was a problem this season & will  be the upcoming one. Jeffers hasn't been hitting and his arm is weak (although the Twins have been sleeping on base stealing many are waking up) so this will be a progressive problem.

If you are referring to the offense is subpar and you're blaming the players, that's where I disagree with you. Your stats don't begin to show the whole story. The conditions of this last season especially, the 2nd half is different than '23. As I described with lack of motivation (probably due to blown winning games) and injuries. You can't blame the players for that, If you want to evaluate players you have to throw out the 2nd half & see what they do when aren't playing hurt. There I'd say Kepler & Jeffers haven't been playing up to par & could be replaced.

If we have good pitching & good defense we have plenty of offense especially from our starters & many back ups. If the Twins want pick RH slugging OFer that's not an oaf, fine but it's not a priority

[Blyleven2011]

22 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Shameless plug… we had a debate about that! I still think a strong offense is more important in the grand scheme of things. 

It's definitely more exciting  , where are our dynamic duo ....

[Riverbrian]

31 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

I apologize for coming across harsh. But I have a problem with fans that use past & bias stats to evaluate players w/o looking at conditions that have been resolved or changed. Maybe I misunderstood the reason for your article.

Like my past post I agreed with you that actually we don't need an ace even though our rotation is weak because our greatest pitching resource is the spot starter/ long relief position, Long relief easily makes  up for any problems we may have in the rotation or short relief, they act as a shock absorber. But management completely ignores this resource so that's why fans look at "aces". (I'm very strict too on what is referred to as an ace.) To make up for gaps between SP & short relief,

If you are looking at who we really need to start in the beginning of '23 then let's look at the OF- Buxton, Kepler, Larnach, Kiriloff, Gordon, with Celestino, Garlic & Wallner all will be 100% ready. Pretty impressive but if you want to replace Kepler with a RH bat, good but no priority.

INF- If Correa opts out we'll have a gaping hole so that's our absolute priority especially defense. 2B we have Polanco, although our depth is shallow there now, Polanco is steady. 3B & 1B we have covered. Catching was a problem this season & will  be the upcoming one. Jeffers hasn't been hitting and his arm is weak (although the Twins have been sleeping on base stealing many are waking up) so this will be a progressive problem.

If you are referring to the offense is subpar and you're blaming the players, that's where I disagree with you. Your stats don't begin to show the whole story. The conditions of this last season especially, the 2nd half is different than '23. As I described with lack of motivation (probably due to blown winning games) and injuries. You can't blame the players for that, 

If we have good pitching & good defense we have plenty of offense especially from our starters & many back ups. If the Twins want pick RH slugging OFer that's not an oaf, fine but it's not a priority

I get frustrated when I get bumped off my point because I'm being required to express that I understand elementary concepts. It's like the Knights who say Ni are demanding a shrubbery from me just to continue on. 

The reason for the topic was recalibration of off-season priorities but mostly I'm filing a grievance toward the avalanche of ACE articles. It's been over a week and there is nothing else to do on this website but drink from this firehouse. 

Your post illustrates a significant difference between us. You list 8 outfielders and think pretty impressive. I see those 8 outfielders... I like the depth and options... I think it's a great album but I'm not sure that there is a hit single on it... and I just can't unsee the utter collapse post all-star break of 3 (Kepler, Celestino, Garlick) of the 8 that you list knowing that Buxton is perpetually inches from a week or more of unavailability. 

I do agree that context matters and numbers could never tell the whole story, however, I only have numbers and eyeballs to work with because I'm not in the dugout to offer such explanations. I'd be more inclined to go with gripping the bat too tight over lack of motivation. If there is a player who lost motivation due to blown saves while in a pennant chase... I'd want them gone.  ?

 

[stringer bell]

I’d like to see a RH version of Kepler (at least as good) to man right field, perhaps on a platoon basis when/if all are healthy. 
If this guy could be Buxton’s sub or injury replacement, so much the better. I do think that the position players underperformed their stats last year—they should have scored more runs based on their team OPS and their RISP and “close and late” stats were abysmal.  A running game and more contact and situational hitting is needed. It appeared at the beginning of the year that the Twins had sufficient depth to withstand a normal amount of injuries, but there was more than a normal amount and the depth was used up. An outfield of Wallner-Celestino-Cave wasn’t supposed to be happening on the west side of the river. 

[LVTwinsfan]

10 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I understand that Post all-star break is less than half the season. 68 games to be exact. 

I didn't place Pagan on my list. I've posted my personal feelings on Pagan multiple times.

Pagan placed himself there. 

My point wasn’t about who or what put Pagan on the list, my point was that the small sample of those stats dont really mean much.

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, LVTwinsfan said:

My point wasn’t about who or what put Pagan on the list, my point was that the small sample of those stats dont really mean much.

Other than they are the stats that cumulated into a 28-40 record. 

[MN_ExPat]

On 10/28/2022 at 2:50 PM, Squirrel said:

There is no other way for me to describe the quality of starter I want. It’s not so much a designation of order but the level of performance. I equated Berríos as 2, so there’s what I’m looking for. A couple of that quality and the rest a notch below. I don’t care where they pitch in the rotation or for how many innings, that’s the quality I want. If that’s too complicated for you to understand, school is available to anyone of any age. And I don’t subscribe to ‘just have 12-13 good pitchers and pitch then wherever, however, whenever’ as you do. I think that complete lack of rigidity is just as bad.

And now your own response to a part of post has driven this to become a pitcher discussion, what you are offended by

 

[Craig Arko]

4 hours ago, MN_ExPat said:

 

From Charlie Brown’s Halloween bag, no less.

[Riverbrian]

19 hours ago, MN_ExPat said:

 

Thanks

Much appreciated

[TopGunn#22]

GREAT discussion !  This is why I love this site.  The reason an "Ace" should always be sought is that pitching and defense always keeps you competitive.  I completely agree with the rhetorical question "What is an Ace?"  It's kind of like, "I know it when I see it."  An "Ace" is someone who is great year in and year out, not a guy who flashes for a season (Maeda in 2020 or 1969 20-game winner Dave Boswell).  Dave Boswell is an example of a "good" pitcher who was never an "Ace" in ancient Twins parlance.

Rodon would be expensive and could be an injury risk, but if healthy would certainly sit at the top of our rotation.  However, I think a guy like Brandon Woodruff is perfect for the Twins.  Not really an injury risk, and the guy is a horse.  He would eat innings while also being very effective.  He's the kind of guy you can count on to give your BP a rest on a consistent basis.  I have speculated that a trade with the Brewers where Ober and other trade capital goes over could get it done.  A pitcher like Woodruff has a wave effect on the entire pitching staff providing stability from the top.

But I don't disagree that our offense needs a couple more consistent bats as well and to me, Jeffers is a black hole.  My trade target for catcher would be Jansen from Toronto.  His BTV is 26.6 not cheap but not enormous either.  Put a trade package together and hit him 7th in the lineup.  Catcher Black Hole problem solved.  The Blue Jays can't play Kirk, Moreno and Jansen effectively.  One of them needs to go and Jansen is probably the one.  I'd look to get Lourdes Gurriel (5.60 BTV) as well.  RH outfield bat solved !  Jansen and Gurriel would be a 31.2 BTV.  Larnach alone could probably get it done.  I'd probably add a little just to sweeten the deal.  Woodruff, Jansen and Lourdes Gurriel.  That would be pretty strategic and effective.  

[ashbury]

On 10/31/2022 at 8:22 AM, MN_ExPat said:

 

I fail to see how posting a photo of a mislabeled half-loaf of stale bread advances the discussion.

There is so much to fix on this team, if actual post-season contention is the aim, that I don't object to articles and threads about acquiring high-end pitching, when the hitting is in dire need of improvement too.  It will all get discussed.

Even if Correa doesn't depart, the Twins have a lot of payroll space to work with.  That's not good news.  It means they don't have a lot of proven high-end talent under contract.  A lot of maybes.  A lot of Oh Teh Injurieses.  If the young talent doesn't start coming through better and more reliably, this franchise is in trouble.

[Riverbrian]

8 hours ago, ashbury said:

I fail to see how posting a photo of a mislabeled half-loaf of stale bread advances the discussion.

There is so much to fix on this team, if actual post-season contention is the aim, that I don't object to articles and threads about acquiring high-end pitching, when the hitting is in dire need of improvement too.  It will all get discussed.

Even if Correa doesn't depart, the Twins have a lot of payroll space to work with.  That's not good news.  It means they don't have a lot of proven high-end talent under contract.  A lot of maybes.  A lot of Oh Teh Injurieses.  If the young talent doesn't start coming through better and more reliably, this franchise is in trouble.

Now that catching appears to be in the crosshairs, turns out that starting pitching might have been the beginning of a Twinsdaily content plan. I therefore have withdrawn my objection because my original objection was impulsively ill-timed and impatiently naïve. 

Judge: Good Morning Everyone, please take your seats.

Lawyer: I OBJECT!

Judge: Over ruled - OK Before we get to opening statements.

[Unwinder]

On 10/31/2022 at 10:22 AM, MN_ExPat said: