For how much I love the MLB it sucks to live in MN right now.

[Brodin4Calder]

From 2000 to 2010 the Twins had 6 first place finishes, the least amount of wins in that time was 79. We were always good in the regular season but our owner never spent the extra money to win in the playoffs. In 2010 the Twins won the AL Central and had a payroll of 114mil. Since then it has gone downhill fast. We have cut over 42mil in salaries including Cuddyer, Kubel, Nathan, Revere, Span... You get the idea. You know the saying "With every action there is a equal reaction" and that proved to be true with back to back 60 win seasons. Something we just arent used to, we were the big dogs of the division and now were the doormats.

 

So why has there been so much cutting? Could it be the new stadium? Or is it because the Owner died? I wish we had some answers but I dont think we will get any. Its just sad to see us give up, I mean CLE and KC have a higher payroll than us now. In 2010 we had the highest payroll in the division at 114mil, Now we have the lowest payroll. DET and CHI have double ours and CLE and KC have more too. The MLB is all about spending money, yea the top spenders dont always win but its almost always a team around the top.

 

The only chance we have at going far is if all of our top prospects breakout into all stars and are still on rookie contracts. We just cant compete with teams spending 160mil-220mil while we are spending 70mil. The casual fan doesnt understand the concept of team payrolls and how unfair the MLB really is. Its not our fault that Minneapolis' population is 300K while LA has like 7mil, because the more fans the more money a team can spend. It also has to do with the owner but the market is the majority factor.

[Brock Beauchamp]

There are many reasons for the payroll cuts but I think the majority of it has to do with Ryan. He simply doesn't like to spend money on free agents.

 

As for market size, the Twins can no longer cry poor. Their market size is roughly middle of the pack. They have a brand new stadium. If memory serves, they have a new TV deal coming soon. Revenue-wise, they should be on par with other mid-tier teams.

 

If the Brewers can compete with their miniscule market and television rights, the Twins can as well.

[jctwins]

And the Cardinals, and the Reds, and...the list goes on. They are not "small market" by any stretch anymore.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Not to nit-pick, but it was in 2011 that they had a payroll north of $110M, and they lost 99 games that year, so it's not all about the money spent on payroll.

 

I would also say that the Twins "dominance" in the 2000s was as much a product of the poor shape of the other franchises as it was due to excellence in the Twins; when you consider that their poor post-season record is more understandable (although no less disappointing).

 

Bottom line - baseball is a business, and owners will spend money only to the point that it generates a profit (nor do I think they should be expected to go beyond that point). I think for a mid-market franchise such as the Twin Cities that means we can reasonably expect to challenge for the division crown each year, but we can't expect to dominate, nor should there be expectations of world series crowns. Every once in a while we might gel beyond our natural ability and surprise people, but we will never be Boston or the Yankees.

[Anorthagen]

Personally I disagree with your idea that organizations need to spend large sums of money in order to be competitive.

 

Just look at the 2011 Red Soxs, they were picked to win the World Series, yet they didn't even make the playoffs. The Marlins last year spent millions of dollars on a new stadium with new and expensive players, which after one season find themselves at the doormat of the NL EAST, and those players gone. The Angels this and last season went on huge spending spheres in which they failed to make the playoffs and now they are the doormat of the AL WEST.

 

Do I like spending big money to get big free agents? Yes. But do I like teams that give numerous players long and expensive contracts? No. Just because it doesn't work. It never has and it never will. Which is why the best way to win a Championship is to build up the farm system.

[cmathewson]

I'd be in favor of the Twins spending more money if I thought there were good investments to be had on the free agent market. It's not my money after all.

 

But I honestly don't think there were many good investments our there this past year. There were a few overrated pitchers like Greine and Snachez who were going to get way more than they would eer be worth, And there were a lot of marginal pitchers who were not worth much, but could be had for a cheap price. Which ones were the best investment is a matter for speculation. But the Twins got decent value for their dollars there.

 

This coming offseason might be more interesting. How do you manage a payroll to ensure that you will be able to retain the stars knocking on the door (Sano, Arcia, Rosario, Buxton, Meyer, May) long enough to win it all at least once? You don't do it by spending all your payroll on marginal upgrades. Fill enough holes to be competitive until the kids are ready. Otherwise save your money, 'cause this team will get expensive in a hurry.

[johnnydakota]

I'd be in favor of the Twins spending more money if I thought there were good investments to be had on the free agent market. It's not my money after all.

 

But I honestly don't think there were many good investments our there this past year. There were a few overrated pitchers like Greine and Snachez who were going to get way more than they would eer be worth, And there were a lot of marginal pitchers who were not worth much, but could be had for a cheap price. Which ones were the best investment is a matter for speculation. But the Twins got decent value for their dollars there.

 

This coming offseason might be more interesting. How do you manage a payroll to ensure that you will be able to retain the stars knocking on the door (Sano, Arcia, Rosario, Buxton, Meyer, May) long enough to win it all at least once? You don't do it by spending all your payroll on marginal upgrades. Fill enough holes to be competitive until the kids are ready. Otherwise save your money, 'cause this team will get expensive in a hurry.

 

yup continue to gut´payroll cause in 5 or 8 years we might have to pay fair market value

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

yup continue to gut´payroll cause in 5 or 8 years we might have to pay fair market value

In order for the Twins to field a team that could compete for a championship this year, they would have had to sign free agents for damn near every starting position and 4 of 5 starting pitchers. Neglecting for a minute the impossibility and unprecedented nature of this feat, it would have cost 300 million dollars. But the Pohlads surely are rich and can afford it so why not, right?

 

Seriously, there isn't a need right now to load up with long term contracts for mediocre pitchers to win 83 games instead of 72. Wait until May and Gibson are up and Sano and Buck are knocking on the door, and use FA to fill some holes or add a good starter.

[drjim]

Here are some things to consider for your next rant.

 

Payroll did not start going down right after 2010. 2011 was about $10-15 mil higher and 2012 was about the same as 2010.

 

Det and Chi do not spend more than twice as much in payroll as the Twins and KC and Cle are about the same -even slightly less.

 

Lots of reasons have been given as to why payroll is where it's at right now. It wouldn't be very hard to find.

 

The Twins won't be in the top of payrolls but should be middle of the pack. They can't cry poverty but they also won't have a TV deal that will come close to the big boys.

 

Teams have down cycles from time to time when the farm system dries up. The future looks bright.

[drjim]

2013 Baseball Payrolls, List - MLB - CBSSports.com News, Rumors, Scores, Stats, Fantasy Advice

 

Here is a quick link of payrolls. My mistake, Cle and KC are slightly higher. I imagine the Twins have more flexibility going forward.

[Halsey Hall]

And I thought this thread was about the weather!

[cmathewson]

yup continue to gut´payroll cause in 5 or 8 years we might have to pay fair market value

 

Thank you for the charity with which you interpreted my comment. Perhaps I should speak more plainly.

 

1. As others have posted, there were not enough free agents on the market to build a contending team in 2013.

 

2. The FAs that were available were overpriced as a result.

 

3. Signing them would restrict future payrolls in undesirable ways.

 

4. The most prudent thing is to invest when more of the pieces are in place internally for a championship team.

 

5. Perhaps as early as this next offseason, the Twins can get enough talent from the minors, acquisitions and free agency to build a contending team for the 2014 season.

 

6. Until then, the Twins acted prudently in getting guys who can make the team competitive and help the first wave of talent from the minors develop in a winning atmosphere.

 

7. The fact that the roster is cheaper than average is irrelevant to the Twins long-term strategy.

[2wins87]

The last two years haven't been great, and by the time August rolls around it is unlikely that the Twins will be very close to the division leaders, but this is nothing like the mid and late 90's, which really wasn't a good time to be a baseball fan in Minnesota.

 

The Twins have some very good prospects which will be coming up in the next few years and they have the payroll flexibility to fill the holes in the free agent market when these prospects enter their primes. I expect the Twins' payroll to be in the 100-125 million range again soon and that is plenty to be competitive with the right strategy. Look at teams like Atlanta and St. Louis, who have remained competitive pretty much every year with generally middle market payrolls. I think 2015 and 2016 will really be the test when we have some talented young players under contract for cheap to see whether the front office and ownership are serious about really being competitive. And with the solid scouting and development system already in place and more payroll flexibility than in the past, I think the Twins could be in position to compete for a long time.

 

So in sum I think it's a great time to be a baseball fan in Minnesota, you just have to be a little patient. And even when the team isn't winning, you've got a beautiful open air stadium to enjoy some summer games.

[Mike Sixel]

How would signing a player to "too much money" this last year have restricted payroll? They get $25MM more next year, Blackburn and Morneau are gone this year. They have zero guys eligible to get paid real money in the next three years (maybe Diamond). Where do they need this money at all, if not FA? $43 million more dollars to spend next year.....and then Willingham the year after. So, how, exactly, does spending even $25mm on Grienke hurt the salary structure of this team?

[Brodin4Calder]

You guys dont get what im saying do you? The Twins have cut a ton of money for some reason and we suck now because of it. DET and CHI have double the payroll then us now, we have the lowest payroll in the division.

 

No a big payroll doesnt always mean you are good. But the majority of the teams with large payrolls are good and go to the playoffs or get close. The times teams that have average payrolls and are good is when they have multiple all stars on rookie contracts. Like SF last year had a payroll around 115mil but they had Posey, Bumgarner and some other key players on rookie contracts.

 

The Twins could of signed a top of the roto pitcher this offseason. Instead they cut a ton more salary, which included trading 2 of last seasons best players Rvere and Span.

 

The point I was really trying to make is the Twins would be a waaay better team if we still had Cuddyer, Kubel, Hunter.... You see what im saying. There was no reason to let them get away, it all came down to the owners not wanting to spend money.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The Twins could of signed a top of the roto pitcher this offseason. Instead they cut a ton more salary, which included trading 2 of last seasons best plaers Rvere and Span.

 

The point I was really trying to make is the Twins would be a waaay better team if we still had Cuddyer, Kubel, Hunter.... You see what im saying. There was no reason to let them get away, it all came down to the owners not wanting to spend money.

 

The Twins traded Revere and Span because they have about 45 outfielders in the minors that project to be better players and had virtually NO pitching that projected better than mediocre. You're barking up the wrong tree if you want to complain about those trades... They were fantastic just about any way you look at it.

 

As for Cuddyer and Kubel... No, the Twins would still be awful if they were on the roster. Two plodding OF do not fix a 100 loss team. Not to mention that 2012 Willingham outhit both of them anyway (for far less money).

 

But the payroll would be higher. You have that much right.

[silverslugger]

Come on guys, when do we ever let fact get in the way of opinion around here? It's true, it certainly sucks to live in Minnesota right now and be a Twins fan. I'm glad I live in Iowa. Oops, it sucks to live in Iowa right now too!!!

[ashbury]

There were a few overrated pitchers like Greine and Snachez

 

There was a young belle of old Natchez

Whose garments were always in patchez.

When asked about wins,

And the state of the Twins,

She, drawled, "They oughta've signed Snachez."

[kryptik]

Minnesota is a mid-market team at this point in the franchises' history. We are right around the middle in MLB market size, and would definitely be in the top half in terms of fans of the actual club instead of bodies in front of tv sets.

 

Regardless we can't abandon the principles that made the franchise what it is, we have to invest a lot of money into our farm system and scouting. We need to pour more into that than other squads because if we are the best at it that will ultimately reap higher returns. Scouting/Drafting/Developing will always be our bread and butter (unless the Twin Cities gains another 2 million people in the next 20 years). The only difference now is that instead of dismissing FA signings out of hand as impossible, the fanbase/team/FO should be of the mentality that we are not only capable of signing FA's that could elevate a particular team to the next level, but that we are expected too when the opportunity presents itself.

 

The Twin Cities market might require us to overpay for some FA's just because it isn't as glamorous as Miami, New York, Los Angeles, etc, but if we have played our cards right at the lower levels and spent wisely that shouldn't be an impossible hurdle to jump for the big league club.

 

St. Louis has a terrific baseball tradition with the Cardinals, and I see no reason why this organization can't be as successful as the red birds going forward.

[Physics Guy]

Other than the fact that the Twins are only a .500 team, there is nothing that sucks about being a Twins fan right now. They are much more competitive than last year and their minor league teams are on a roll. My biggest concern is that too many of their best players are at High A and Low A. I wish they had a couple more at AA or higher. The promising part is that several of their top prospects at AA and AAA are pitchers: Gibson, Meyer and May. Their top hitters in A ball also look like they could ascend at a quicker rate than past prospects. It's much easier being a Twins fan today than it was at this point last year.

 

I'm holding out hope that Ryan will pull off a trade for a veteran pitcher that would be be cost controlled and they could spend money on to resign later, someone like Shields. I think this scenario is much more likely than signing a FA to big money. Ryan seems much more likely to spend money on guys that have been with the organization.