Gomez and the Santana Trade

[Mike Sixel]

Given last year, and so far this year......how do you think the Santana trade really was? Gomez has been very, very good this year. He has been one of the best all around players in the game.

 

Was this really the worst trade ever, or did the organization just not have the patience it needed?

 

I admit, I never thought Gomez would be this good. If he stays at this level for a few years, that trade looks pretty fair, given Santana's salary, age, health.

[ThePuck]

This is season six since that trade.

 

If you have to wait five or six years for a player you get in a trade to develop into at least an okay player to be called a patient ball club, especially when that player already had MLB experience, then I'd rather the Twins not be called a patient ball club.

 

On top of that, part of the attraction was having him for quite some time at a reasonable rate. He didn't develop into an okay player until his last season before being able to become a FA.

[DaveW]

I remember when I said the Gomez contract this year was a good move by the Brewers I was considered crazy.

 

Contract of the year so far.

[Larsbars08]

Considering we traded him after the 2009 season, and he didn't post an OPS above .750 until last year, it's hard to knock the twins too much. His current pace has got to be unsustainable. It would be less awful if we still had J.J. Hardy, but it is what it is. I wish the Twins had kept him in AAA for a year or two after the trade, but hindsight is 20/20. Considering we might have gotten Ellsbury or Lester, the Santana trade will always be a disappointment.

[gunnarthor]

I think the Mets really hurt him by keeping him at the ML level but not playing him his rookie year. He's turning into a pretty good player but Span was the better CF entering this year, so I think the Twins were right to go with Span.

 

I'm still not that bothered by the Santana trade as others are. We knew we were going to trade him, we got back two top 60 prospects and two more pitching prospects. We flipped one for Rauch. Gomez gave us a few moments and one season of Hardy. I'm sure there have been worse trades in Twins history.

[Mike Sixel]

Where am I knocking the twins? I am asking if you think it was more fair, now, than you thought before? Gomez is 27......he was rushed, frankly.

[ThePuck]

Where am I knocking the twins? I am asking if you think it was more fair, now, than you thought before? Gomez is 27......he was rushed, frankly.

 

I thought your question was: Was this really the worst trade ever, or did the organization just not have the patience it needed?

 

Isn't 'not having patience' considered a slam of sorts? Isn't that one of the choices and the view you seem to be leaning towards?

[bird]

Ancient history.

[Willihammer]

Its hard for me to knock the trade considering the Twins were able to flip Gomez for Hardy. Dumping Hardy was the real crime, IMO.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Its hard for me to knock the trade considering the Twins were able to flip Gomez for Hardy. Dumping Hardy was the real crime, IMO.

 

Pretty much this.

[PseudoSABR]

AJ Pierzynski > Escobar and P Hernandez

[Mike Sixel]

I thought your question was: Was this really the worst trade ever, or did the organization just not have the patience it needed?

 

Isn't 'not having patience' considered a slam of sorts? Isn't that one of the choices and the view you seem to be leaning towards?

 

Ah, no, I'm not taking a side on that part at all....sorry, my bad.

 

I'm more asking about the trade itself....which many rip constantly, and use as proof Smith was a bad GM....

[Boom Boom]

I think Gomez has legitimately turned a corner. I wouldn’t be surprised if he winds up putting together a better career than Denard Span.

Hardy isn’t really relevant, IMO, but if you want to play Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, I think Jared Camp for Deolis Guerra was a pretty fair trade.

[BSP]

I think Gomez has legitimately turned a corner. I wouldn’t be surprised if he winds up putting together a better career than Denard Span.

Hardy isn’t really relevant, IMO, but if you want to play Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, I think Jared Camp for Deolis Guerra was a pretty fair trade.

 

I see what you did there. Nice.

[Physics Guy]

AJ Pierzynski > Escobar and P Hernandez

 

Joe Nathan+Escobar+Hernandez > Pierzynski

[Physics Guy]

Gomez was clearly rushed to the majors. His first year with the Twins he was 21, 2 years younger than Hicks. Hicks is a more polished player than Gomez was and he is struggling. If Gomez had spent his first two years in the minors while Span patrolled CF, Gomez might be in CF now and Hicks in AAA. Many players don't debut until they are 24 or 25. I don't fault the Twins for moving on, but I do think they should have handled him differently at the beginning. It seems to me part of him being in MLB was to save face for the trade. They needed to show they got something for Santana.

[PseudoSABR]

Joe Nathan+Escobar+Hernandez > Pierzynski

Of course, I was kidding. And Joe Nathan no longer plays for us, we can't count the actual use we got out of players, we must only count what we still have.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Gomez was clearly rushed to the majors. His first year with the Twins he was 21, 2 years younger than Hicks.

Actually Gomez was 22 when he came to the Twins. He was 21 for his debut with the Mets.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I still think the Santana trade was pretty awful. There's no reason we had to trade him -- we came up 1 win short of the playoffs in 2008, and we could have used the compensation draft picks in 2009 to help restock the system.

 

On top of this, Johan's no-trade clause severely restricted our potential trade partners, and the Twins seemed to artificially limit his trade value too by targeting "prospects" at just two positions (CF and SP).

 

Furthermore, the Twins normally shrewd trade acumen all but disappeared that offseason. It really felt like Bill Smith was making moves based more on position and reputation than any type of real scouting or analysis. Losing a power hitting CF (Hunter)? Trade for a power hitting outfielder (Young) and a CF (Gomez). Trading starting pitchers (Santana & Garza)? Acquire starting pitchers (Humber & Mulvey). Trading your shortstop (Bartlett)? Acquire a shortstop (Harris). All of it was a disaster. Ramos-for-Capps and the two Hardy trades fit this bill too. Smith's only excuse that I can see is that maybe he relied too much on Gardy for input on these deals.

 

I really wonder what would have happened if TR had stayed on after 2007 -- I don't think the Santana trade happens, for example. It would be an interesting exercise.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't think Sano is signed by Ryan either.....Oh, and Ryan could have taken care of Mauer signing, Hunter and Santana, but he quit instead of handling those, having not handled them the yeaf before, and having angered both by playing for a "future that will never come" in Hunter's words.

 

And I agree, the Ramos and Hardy and Garza trades were awful. I was just wondering how people felt about the Santana trade at this point.

[Riverbrian]

In consideration of everything... The whole thing was a big large super sized bungling.

 

A. The package we got for Santana was disapointing in total.

B. The placing of Gomez immediately on the Twins Roster was an accute example of rushing a prospect.

C. Trading Gomez for Hardy was a mistake in my mind because Gomez was still young and going to be something special in my opinion.

D. Trading Hardy for Hoey was worse than A B and C.

 

The trade started bad and just kept getting worse.

 

With that said... you just don't know how trades are gonna go.

 

I myself once traded my car for an actual polar bear. I did research and a polar bear was 100,000 dollars in value at the time. My car had 100,000 miles.

 

It was a no brainer. The truck shows up and drops the bear off at my house. The neighbors started complaining immediately. I had to build an enclosure because it turns out it was pretty strong and the rope and stake that worked for my dog wasn't getting it done.

 

You would be surprised at the cost of seal meat and how much they eat and how much there was to clean up after, and worst of all, The bear didn't like to be hugged at all and those claws are real. I tried to give it a hug and it sliced me pretty good and I had to walk to the emergency room bleeding terribly because I had traded my car.

 

That was a bad deal. We've all made em.

[cmathewson]

If we had held onto Hardy, it would have been a fair trade. But we dumped him for parts.

[TheLeviathan]

I think taking into consideration Johan's price and his ultimate undoing for health reasons - the Twins got fair value. Problem is, it's better to judge the value by what they got perceptual at the time, and it wasn't good.

[cmathewson]

I think taking into consideration Johan's price and his ultimate undoing for health reasons - the Twins got fair value. Problem is, it's better to judge the value by what they got perceptual at the time, and it wasn't good.

 

Fair value should be judged against a year of his arm in the rotation plus two draft picks. They didn't get that. But they got close with Hardy.

[Boom Boom]

If we had held onto Hardy, it would have been a fair trade. But we dumped him for parts.

Which trade would have been fair? The Gomez trade, or the Santana trade?

I agree that holding on to Hardy would have made the Gomez trade fair... but like I said before, it really has no bearing on the Santana trade.

[ashbury]

With that said... you just don't know how trades are gonna go.

 

You probably have heard the story of the guy who traded a paper clip for a house. Link. The Twins kind of traded a house, Santana Manor, for a paper clip named Hoey.

[jimbo92107]

Carlos Gomez a couple years ago reminded me of Milton Bradley - a world of talent, but the guy was a flake. I don't blame the Twins for unloading him, especially with so many talented young center fielders coming up. I'm glad Gomez is rounding into a great ballplayer, but to me, it really didn't look like it was going to happen.

 

Like Yogi said, predictions are hard, especially about the future.

[Badsmerf]

At the time the trade was for a MLB SS on a playoff team. Gomez was still a work in progress and everyone knew he had talent. He should have spent a year in AAA when the Twins traded for him, but they wanted the instant gratification from the trade and Span didn't look like he would turn into the player he is. Ultimately, he wouldn't have seen much playing time with Delmon in left and Cuddy/Kubel in right. Gomez-Hardy was a fine trade.... Santana-Gomez was not.

[cmathewson]

Which trade would have been fair? The Gomez trade, or the Santana trade?

I agree that holding on to Hardy would have made the Gomez trade fair... but like I said before, it really has no bearing on the Santana trade.

 

Put it this way: Ending up with Hardy for several years vs. one year of Santana + draft picks would have been fair value.

[Guest USAFChief]

I still think the Santana trade was pretty awful. There's no reason we had to trade him -- we came up 1 win short of the playoffs in 2008, and we could have used the compensation draft picks in 2009 to help restock the system.

 

Yup. No amount of belly-button gazing several years later changes the fact the Santana trade was a complete, utter disaster. And it was pretty easy to call it such at the time, which many did. That it was bungled even further, later on, only makes it worse. I don't get it...many of the same people who then (and now) say how difficult it is to acquire ace-level pitching make excuses for the Santana trade, in which the Twins traded an ace-level pitcher, and got nothing of much value.