Just thinking out loud, if the Twins continue with their current methodology...

Riverbrian · October 14, 2022

7 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I hear what you are saying, but again that just means you need all good or better pitchers. The reason Bundy threw 140 innings wasn't because Duran only threw 67.2, it was because the Twins thought he was better than Pagan, Thielbar, Megill, Duffey, Moan, Cotton, Sands, Smith , Smeltzer and such pitching more innings on top of Ober, Winder, Ryan, Gray and Mahle's injuries same with why Archer pitched 102 innings.

I think we can agree Duran should pitch more innings than last year but if that is because he is pitching less games and more innings, that means they need other bullpen members close to as good as him to finish games or come in a save an inning, correct?

The twd ins next year are going into the season with multiple pitchers that could/should be considered traditional starters, I agree Duran, Jax, Ober, Winder, Varland can be multiple innings pitchers (starting a game or coming into a game later), what becomes difficult is how to use them if traditional starters go longer because they are pitching great or short because they weren't on that day or blow out games For example if the Plan is Ryan to start a game and go 6 and Duran is set to pitch the last 3 innings, what do they go if Twins go way up or way down are you going to pitch Duran in a game like that, just because or do you save him and then what happens when he hasn't pitched in days? This is why it becomes difficult to implement something similar. Which means you have to get away traditional starters completely and go with a idea of 3 to innings pitchers pitching every few days. Which gets to my point unless you bring a stud starter from the outside you probably aren't going to develop one.

I hear what you are saying, but again that just means you need all good or better pitchers. The reason Bundy threw 140 innings wasn't because Duran only threw 67.2, it was because the Twins thought he was better than Pagan, Thielbar, Megill, Duffey, Moan, Cotton, Sands, Smith , Smeltzer and such pitching more innings on top of Ober, Winder, Ryan, Gray and Mahle's injuries same with why Archer pitched 102 innings.

In my opinion, Bundy threw 140 innings because:

A- Remained Healthy

B- The Starters around him did not remain healthy

C- He couldn't be stashed in the minors without losing him

D- We Needed every inch of starting pitch depth we could muster to maintain the rotation.

E- He wasn't amazing but he wasn't the worst thing on earth.

F- The Twins like every other team adheres to the concept of a starting rotation.

I believe that's why he threw 140 innings. I don't think you can compare him to the relievers on your list because those are two separate positions in the traditional format. You could compare him to Smeltzer and Sands. I believe Smeltzer was the better pitcher when compared to Bundy and Archer but Smelter could be stashed in the minors for depth, while Bundy and Archer could not.

I think we can agree Duran should pitch more innings than last year but if that is because he is pitching less games and more innings, that means they need other bullpen members close to as good as him to finish games or come in a save an inning, correct?

You always need complimentary talent. It's no different if you let Scherzer throw 8 innings, he will have to rest for 5 days and others have to perform decently while he is unavailable. You have a better chance of surrounding him with complimentary talent if you can pick from all options.

For example if the Plan is Ryan to start a game and go 6 and Duran is set to pitch the last 3 innings, what do they go if Twins go way up or way down are you going to pitch Duran in a game like that, just because or do you save him and then what happens when he hasn't pitched in days?

I'd hate to see anything that scripted. That's where I'd throw that Bundy fella. ?

What you are describing is already happening and has been happening for years. Managers adjust based on the situation. The difference is... if you remove the hard designation of roles. The manager now has 12 options to work with instead of potentially only 8.

Throw all our pitchers in a pile and here are potentially the best 13 potential pitchers from the current roster for next year.

Ryan, Gray, Ober, Maeda, Mahle, Paddack, Winder, Duran, Lopez, Jax, Thielbar, Fulmer. Pagan. Disclaimer: Pagan wouldn't be my choice but I know he will be back.

If you stick with the traditional set up with a 5 man rotation. 2 of Ryan, Gray, Ober, Maeda, Mahle, Paddack and Winder will have to start in AAA and be replaced by? I don't know but probably someone like Joe Smith who isn't as good just to pinch out an inning every once in awhile just to keep the traditional structure churning along.

Remove the roles and just call those 13 pitchers "pitchers" and utilize them when needed at any point in the game and give those who are pitching the best more innings.

You have a better chance of building a staff of 13 arms who can effectively pitch and hanging zero's in more of those 1437 innings. They are all Bullpen, They are all eligible to pitch the first inning, they are all potential closers.

Old Twins Hat · October 14, 2022

Not sure this has been digested:

The pitchers, the ones who really want to start, and who are wired to dominate, and throw hard for 120 throws, those guys, the ones you want, the ones that are Type A and are wired to excel and make a ton of money, they will never want to be in a system that devalues them and limits what they can do and especially how much money they can make.

To create a system that limits achievement, because that's what Analytics or a Front Office or coaches want it to be, is itself closed off to reality, and will not attract high-end talent.

Every team wants high-end talent, and they want it to find it's own high-water mark.

Coming in over the top and deciding what a guy can and cannot do based on a generic reading of how it goes for most pitchers is not going to be the wave of the future. It will miss the stand out starters, and no team will want to be without the high-end studs.

Tlaker · October 14, 2022

Some great discussion in this thread! Thanks!!

Rosterman · October 14, 2022

No one complained about short starts more than I.

But the Twins had a gaggle of pitchers that needed to approach 150 innings, and giving them short starts was a way to also get nearly 30 starts out of the crop.

Next year, Madea will be on an inning count. Paddack, too, but he ain't due back until August. WInder needs to throw more innings, but could funnel into a long relief role and spot start if he pitches well out of spring training.

Gray, Ryan, Ober, Varland, Mahle, Wood Richardson could all comfortably pitch 150+ innings next season. Yes, it would be nice to have another...stud...in the rotation.

I had hoped Jax would be a multi-inning guy. Moran seems to be able to pitch thru a batting order. Henrqiuez could become a long guy. I would've put mroe faith into Smeltzer being a multi-inning lefty, but he has walked.

dxpavelka · October 14, 2022

On 10/11/2022 at 4:05 PM, SwainZag said:

They already have 9 starters who should be in the mix for opening day roster with Ryan, Gray, Maeda, Mahle, Ober, Winder, Varland, SWR and Sands. I highly doubt we see any "dumpster diving" for starters this year, unless there are trades or multiple injuries/set backs between now and Opening Day. Though I could see a bigger portion or starting caliber pitchers making the roster over 1 inning backend type relievers in the future.

3 # 2s, 3 # 3s 3 # 4s

Richie the Rally Goat · October 14, 2022

9 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I hear what you are saying, but again that just means you need all good or better pitchers. The reason Bundy threw 140 innings wasn't because Duran only threw 67.2, it was because the Twins thought he was better than Pagan, Thielbar, Megill, Duffey, Moan, Cotton, Sands, Smith , Smeltzer and such pitching more innings on top of Ober, Winder, Ryan, Gray and Mahle's injuries same with why Archer pitched 102 innings.

In my opinion, Bundy threw 140 innings because:

A- Remained Healthy

B- The Starters around him did not remain healthy

C- He couldn't be stashed in the minors without losing him

D- We Needed every inch of starting pitch depth we could muster to maintain the rotation.

E- He wasn't amazing but he wasn't the worst thing on earth.

F- The Twins like every other team adheres to the concept of a starting rotation.

I believe that's why he threw 140 innings. I don't think you can compare him to the relievers on your list because those are two separate positions in the traditional format. You could compare him to Smeltzer and Sands. I believe Smeltzer was the better pitcher when compared to Bundy and Archer but Smelter could be stashed in the minors for depth, while Bundy and Archer could not.

I think we can agree Duran should pitch more innings than last year but if that is because he is pitching less games and more innings, that means they need other bullpen members close to as good as him to finish games or come in a save an inning, correct?

You always need complimentary talent. It's no different if you let Scherzer throw 8 innings, he will have to rest for 5 days and others have to perform decently while he is unavailable. You have a better chance of surrounding him with complimentary talent if you can pick from all options.

For example if the Plan is Ryan to start a game and go 6 and Duran is set to pitch the last 3 innings, what do they go if Twins go way up or way down are you going to pitch Duran in a game like that, just because or do you save him and then what happens when he hasn't pitched in days?

I'd hate to see anything that scripted. That's where I'd throw that Bundy fella. ?

What you are describing is already happening and has been happening for years. Managers adjust based on the situation. The difference is... if you remove the hard designation of roles. The manager now has 12 options to work with instead of potentially only 8.

Throw all our pitchers in a pile and here are potentially the best 13 potential pitchers from the current roster for next year.

Ryan, Gray, Ober, Maeda, Mahle, Paddack, Winder, Duran, Lopez, Jax, Thielbar, Fulmer. Pagan. Disclaimer: Pagan wouldn't be my choice but I know he will be back.

If you stick with the traditional set up with a 5 man rotation. 2 of Ryan, Gray, Ober, Maeda, Mahle, Paddack and Winder will have to start in AAA and be replaced by? I don't know but probably someone like Joe Smith who isn't as good just to pinch out an inning every once in awhile just to keep the traditional structure churning along.

Remove the roles and just call those 13 pitchers "pitchers" and utilize them when needed at any point in the game and give those who are pitching the best more innings.

You have a better chance of building a staff of 13 arms who can effectively pitch and hanging zero's in more of those 1437 innings. They are all Bullpen, They are all eligible to pitch the first inning, they are all potential closers.

Agreed, but you still need a plan and a structure to manage the workload, to make sure you can cover all your innings over the horizon.

Blank slate you have 13 pitchers all available.

pitcher Scherzer throws 8 innings shut out, twins up by 8, put in Pagan to close it out, even he can’t screw that up.

scherzer unavailable for 5, pagan needs a day off

then Duran throws 4 scoreless innings, starts to get close to his projected innings fatigue point. Baldelli’s got a decision whether to ride with Duran another inning and give him a 4th day off, or shut him down at 4innings with 3 days rest etc… Because Baldelli didn’t expect Duran to go the distance, had Bundy warming to throw another 4+ Bundy felt good and went 5.

Game 3, Ober tosses 2 and falls apart right away in the 3rd, Baldelli warms two pitchers, Fulmer and Sonny Gray, puts in Fulmer to put out the fire in the 3rd, puts in Gray in the 4th, who goes the distance. Gray pouts that he’s a “starter” and not a “reliever” in the post game presser. Ober now has an undetermined rest period he’s getting checked out by meds. Fulmer needs a day off, Gray needs 4 days off on 5+ innings pitched.

when the manager is managing the rest periods of not just the bullpen, but all 13 pitchers (or maybe 11 of the 13 because Scherzer and Ryan work best on a 4 day rest but the other 11 don’t show the same results) then some of the pitchers capable of going longer might be stopped short just to keep them available in 2 days because you wore out your horses and don’t have anyone available for game 5.

if you don’t have some parameters and structure you’ll paint yourself in a corner with “bullpen games” in the old school sense where you have to trot out a bunch of Pagans in a row and just get bludgeoned.

Riverbrian · October 14, 2022

17 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Agreed, but you still need a plan and a structure to manage the workload, to make sure you can cover all your innings over the horizon.

Blank slate you have 13 pitchers all available.

pitcher Scherzer throws 8 innings shut out, twins up by 8, put in Pagan to close it out, even he can’t screw that up.

scherzer unavailable for 5, pagan needs a day off

then Duran throws 4 scoreless innings, starts to get close to his projected innings fatigue point. Baldelli’s got a decision whether to ride with Duran another inning and give him a 4th day off, or shut him down at 4innings with 3 days rest etc… Because Baldelli didn’t expect Duran to go the distance, had Bundy warming to throw another 4+ Bundy felt good and went 5.

Game 3, Ober tosses 2 and falls apart right away in the 3rd, Baldelli warms two pitchers, Fulmer and Sonny Gray, puts in Fulmer to put out the fire in the 3rd, puts in Gray in the 4th, who goes the distance. Gray pouts that he’s a “starter” and not a “reliever” in the post game presser. Ober now has an undetermined rest period he’s getting checked out by meds. Fulmer needs a day off, Gray needs 4 days off on 5+ innings pitched.

when the manager is managing the rest periods of not just the bullpen, but all 13 pitchers (or maybe 11 of the 13 because Scherzer and Ryan work best on a 4 day rest but the other 11 don’t show the same results) then some of the pitchers capable of going longer might be stopped short just to keep them available in 2 days because you wore out your horses and don’t have anyone available for game 5.

if you don’t have some parameters and structure you’ll paint yourself in a corner with “bullpen games” in the old school sense where you have to trot out a bunch of Pagans in a row and just get bludgeoned.

I agree... forecasting will always play a role but I got to think that the limited availability crunches that occur would be lessened because you have given yourself more options with everyone a potential option at any point in the game. I was actually running over similar scenarios in my head while watching the Wild Game last night, they gave up 7 goals so I might as well think of something else. I got myself stuck on the routine between starts and the possibility of needing Sonny Gray for 6 one game and 1 inning the next appearance with a different rest schedule required. How valuable is that routine? Do relievers have a Routine?

BTW... Sonny Gray didn't get angry in my scenarios. Perhaps you should try a different approach to make sure he understands. In my imaginary hypotheticals, Sonny Gray was always professional because I made sure that he understood the reasoning behind everything. ?

rv78 · October 14, 2022

The Twins should have/use 12 pitchers total, use 3 per game, each throwing 3 innings, and they all get 3 days rest inbetween games. With all of them throwing 3 innings they should only have to face each batter once or twice depending on how good they are, which eliminates that 3rd time through the order for ALL pitchers, which according to their analytics is the perfect solution for winning games. If they construct their staff next year using this methodology they won't lose a game next year.

Richie the Rally Goat · October 14, 2022

9 hours ago, Rosterman said:

No one complained about short starts more than I.

But the Twins had a gaggle of pitchers that needed to approach 150 innings, and giving them short starts was a way to also get nearly 30 starts out of the crop.

Next year, Madea will be on an inning count. Paddack, too, but he ain't due back until August. WInder needs to throw more innings, but could funnel into a long relief role and spot start if he pitches well out of spring training.

Gray, Ryan, Ober, Varland, Mahle, Wood Richardson could all comfortably pitch 150+ innings next season. Yes, it would be nice to have another...stud...in the rotation.

I had hoped Jax would be a multi-inning guy. Moran seems to be able to pitch thru a batting order. Henrqiuez could become a long guy. I would've put mroe faith into Smeltzer being a multi-inning lefty, but he has walked.

Ober pitched 56 innings this year and his high in a season is 108 in 2021.

SWR pitched 112 this year, a 20% increase would be 134 innings. 150 innings would be a 33% increase.

Gray pitched 120 this year, he’s shown capability to throw 150 in the past, but that was 2019, and it’s been sporadic prior.

Mahle threw 120 this year, 180 last year, agreed you can plan on Mahle throwing 150.

Varland threw 152 this year, he threw 108 last year. i’d have a hard time banking on 150 again and not for the full year in MN, but 150 is good target.

Ryan threw 150 this year, 120 last year. 150+ is a good target, pretty confident he’ll surpass it.

IMO, of those 6, 2 have a 60% chance or better to hit the magic 150 mark.

Baldelli, Maki, and the FO MUST optimize their usage of pitchers and stretch more of them longer to share that burden across more pitchers.

They have no choice. Failure to get more out of more pitchers means a repeat of ‘22. They can’t delete the rotation and start over. Most of those pitchers will remain and they can realistically sign or trade for 1-2 traditional starting pitchers at most, and will likely acquire 0 or 1.

Hosken Bombo Disco · October 14, 2022

As far as pitching roles, I think the water has found its level. How it is now is the optimal way to have it, with a starting rotation and a bullpen.

There are other comstraints besides agent and salary demands, which no team is obligated to meet, by the way. There is the health of the individual pitcher and then roster limitations. I think having starters and relievers is natural, and at a minimum would be very hard to shake free from, as has been mentioned. Yes we have seen bullpen games, and we did try the opener/primary concept a few years ago, though you don’t hear about that as much now. And there is always the issue of identifying the good pitchers from the bad, which this front office must get better at. But we may be in another sea change and not noticing it. It would be interesting to look back on things like the evolution to 5-man rotations or the fireman/relief role or velocity and pitch types. Those were very gradual changes taking place over many years and probably seemed experimental too. Maybe we are just in the beginning stages now of another pitching revolution and we just aren’t seeing it yet?

rv78 · October 14, 2022

The common sense thing to do is let your starting pitcher go as long as he is effective at getting batters out. That is what has been done for a long time because it was the smart thing to do. In todays game Rocco and the FO who have his back, thinks he is smarter by using analytics and ignoring the actually performance of the pitcher that day. It doesn't matter if the guys in the bullpen aren't any better at getting hitters out, He only looks at the starters analytics. When you need 4 or 5 relievers to finish a game, analytics would also tell you that 1 or 2 of them will have an off day. Why are those analytics ignored?

Linus · October 15, 2022

You can configure your pitcher usage any way you want. What it boils down to is how good are your 13 pitchers because they are all going to get used. If 3-4 members of your bullpen aren’t very good you got problems.

Richie the Rally Goat · October 15, 2022

15 hours ago, rv78 said:

The common sense thing to do is let your starting pitcher go as long as he is effective at getting batters out. That is what has been done for a long time because it was the smart thing to do. In todays game Rocco and the FO who have his back, thinks he is smarter by using analytics and ignoring the actually performance of the pitcher that day. It doesn't matter if the guys in the bullpen aren't any better at getting hitters out, He only looks at the starters analytics. When you need 4 or 5 relievers to finish a game, analytics would also tell you that 1 or 2 of them will have an off day. Why are those analytics ignored?

The point here, take out the label “starting”

let your pitchers go as long as they are effective. All of your pitchers should pitch to the extent of their effectiveness, not adhere to some arbitrary label.

it is common sense, if all of your pitchers, pitch to the extent of their capability, games go faster, fewer pitching changes, and better pitchers pitching more innings means more wins and fewer innings pitched by bad pitchers. Maybe even carrying fewer pitchers to give the lineup more flexibility?

those analytics are ignored because the vast majority of MLB teams adhere to the labels and the expectations that come with them (and the pay incentives).

Riverbrian · October 16, 2022

On 10/15/2022 at 7:50 AM, Linus said:

You can configure your pitcher usage any way you want. What it boils down to is how good are your 13 pitchers because they are all going to get used. If 3-4 members of your bullpen aren’t very good you got problems.

Yep and it's harder to plug any hole in your 13 staff if you purposely limit yourself to needing X amount of this and X amount of this. You wouldn't have to choose Chi Chi Gonzalez over Moran (for example) to keep the sanctity of a 5 man rotation intact. You wouldn't have to choose Joe Smith over Devin Smeltzer for example.

Who are your best 13 guys to hang a zero and how long can they go?

Hosken Bombo Disco · October 16, 2022

This is all interesting, but I don’t think the teams still alive in the postseason feel constrained by having three good starting pitchers that they can count on for six innings, and then plugging in their best relief pitchers to finish the game, and then use the rest of their pitchers for lower leverage or emergencies.

twinssporto · October 17, 2022

On 10/13/2022 at 7:57 AM, Old Twins Hat said:

Well, you may be over it, and Analytics may call for it, and managers may even plan for it, but I guarantee that the individual pitchers, the ones who want to be great and make a ton of money, they are not over wanting to be a starting pitcher and go all nine, strike-outs in the many hundreds at the end of the season.

That's how these guys came up through the junior leagues and that's the way they want it. And any limitations imposed on their pitching in an actual game, and those guys are going to want to go elsewhere, quickly.

It's an artificial limit on how much money a truly gifted athlete can make and how far he can carry a team.

You tell a Scherzer that he's done after four innings? There will be blood somewhere in that locker room.

I agree. I just watched the Nolan Ryan bio on my last Delta flight back home. Watch that and then debate your position. I'm an above average avid baseball fan and learned a ton watching it. You almost can't make it up.

These MLB teams need to start letting pitchers pitch. What they are managing to now and how they are coaching these kids now is not working.

I miss watching pitchers go 9 innings...I really do.

tarheeltwinsfan · October 17, 2022

On 10/12/2022 at 2:57 PM, Riverbrian said:

In my opinion... Yes

I simply don't care about boxes. I don't need the designations like starter, long reliever, reliever, set up or closer.

To me it's simple. I want 13 guys who can pitch Period. Those who pitch better should get more innings. I don't care where they enter a game. Boxes just limit what is possible.

If that means stretching those who are currently designated as a reliever to 2 or 3 or 4 innings... do it. If that means someone who is currently designated as a starter enters the game in the 4 inning... do it.

I am well past the days of Starters throw 6 and relievers throw 1 inning. It can be any combination necessary and at any point in the game. If Pitcher A who is currently designated as a reliever is better than Pitcher B who is currently designated as a starter... Pitcher A should get more innings because he is better.

I realize that this thought is going to be immediately dismissed and disturbing to many. I offer it regardless.

Would you, therefore, make a starter of Duran? It's tempting, but he sure does fit the role of a successful, shut-down closer.

tony&rodney · October 17, 2022

The human anatomy is a limitation for how a pitcher accumulates innings. Some people need more recovery time than others. Some can only throw so many pitches before they hit the wall. It's actually very individual and quite complicated. I experienced this as a player, coach, and have seen this play out as a fan for many decades. The general increase in velocity and maximum effort style of pitching has also further challenged pitchers and their ability to last through a season much less numerous seasons. Misuse and just plain repetition have led to ever increasing numbers of arm surgeries in an age where there are medical staff galore to monitor each throwing event. MLB has a lengthy season and even most short relievers will struggle throwing every other day all season long.

We all want the most effective pitchers to throw the most innings but it is a management puzzle in how to negotiate through each season. Relief pitchers are in the bullpen because their arms could not handle a large number of pitches in any one outing or their pitch arsenals are limited which exposes them in just a few innings, Constructing an effective pitching staff has proven to be difficult and having starters who can throw 6-9 innings creates bonus space for everyone else on the pitching roster. If you need a real life example look at the Cleveland team, the makeup, and the usage of their pitchers.

Riverbrian · October 17, 2022

3 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Would you, therefore, make a starter of Duran? It's tempting, but he sure does fit the role of a successful, shut-down closer.

I'm trying to eliminate the assigned roles like Starter and Closer.

I'd simply make him a pitcher and use him as often as you can to get more innings out of him. He can finish games in the 9th, He can start games in the 1st or enter at any time in a given ball game.

I know this won't happen but I contend that taking pitchers out of specific roles would make it easier to staff your roster with the best 13 arms and get more innings to your best.

tony&rodney · October 17, 2022

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I'd simply make him a pitcher and use him as often as you can to get more innings out of him.

Are you aware of his problems with injuries as a starting pitcher (multiple innings)? We don't exactly know if Duran could morph back into a starter, a multiple innings guy, or even throw on back to back to back days. It sure seems like an experiment would come with the inevitable Tommy John or worse (shoulder). We don't know however.

Last Saturday games and the playoffs thus far have shown us what works best. Pitchers who move the ball around, vary their pitches, and keep the ball on the edges are successful. Velocity helps but isn't as important. Those who put a pitch in the heart get hurt, even by Harrison Bader. Nolan Ryan was hit hard when he threw it down the middle.

Pitchers have different roles based on their repertoire and ability to bounce back. I can only think of one pitcher who was successful with a single pitch and that Yankee failed as a starter. Some guys could throw 125+ pitches while others are toast at 25. Some can bounce back in a day or two and others take 3-5 days to recover. This is a function of anatomy and just trying to lengthen out doesn't work in many cases. Pitching remains command and control. Verland, Greinke, Kershaw, and Scherzer are living examples of how to pitch. Bieber and Nola are younger examples.

h2oface · October 17, 2022

....and Duran wants to start. Labels? There will always be labels. MLB is not fantasy baseball.

Riverbrian · October 17, 2022

1 minute ago, tony&rodney said:

Are you aware of his problems with injuries as a starting pitcher (multiple innings)? We don't exactly know if Duran could morph back into a starter, a multiple innings guy, or even throw on back to back to back days. It sure seems like an experiment would come with the inevitable Tommy John or worse (shoulder). We don't know however.

Last Saturday games and the playoffs thus far have shown us what works best. Pitchers who move the ball around, vary their pitches, and keep the ball on the edges are successful. Velocity helps but isn't as important. Those who put a pitch in the heart get hurt, even by Harrison Bader. Nolan Ryan was hit hard when he threw it down the middle.

Pitchers have different roles based on their repertoire and ability to bounce back. I can only think of one pitcher who was successful with a single pitch and that Yankee failed as a starter. Some guys could throw 125+ pitches while others are toast at 25. Some can bounce back in a day or two and others take 3-5 days to recover. This is a function of anatomy and just trying to lengthen out doesn't work in many cases. Pitching remains command and control. Verland, Greinke, Kershaw, and Scherzer are living examples of how to pitch. Bieber and Nola are younger examples.

I'm aware of all that you mention. There is a hardened structure in place and probably legit reasons for that structure.

Are you aware of his problems with injuries as a starting pitcher (multiple innings)? We don't exactly know if Duran could morph back into a starter, a multiple innings guy, or even throw on back to back to back days. It sure seems like an experiment would come with the inevitable Tommy John or worse (shoulder). We don't know however.

I think we all assume (myself included) that the rest and routine between starts is important to keep a pitcher healthy and there is no way that I am qualified to determine what does keep pitchers healthy. I can only counter with: Whatever they are doing doesn't appear to be keeping pitchers healthy. Would it get worse with my suggestion... I don't know but I have a hard time seeing how it could possible get worse.

Last Saturday games and the playoffs thus far have shown us what works best. Pitchers who move the ball around, vary their pitches, and keep the ball on the edges are successful. Velocity helps but isn't as important. Those who put a pitch in the heart get hurt, even by Harrison Bader. Nolan Ryan was hit hard when he threw it down the middle.

I've been watching a long time. Agreed... throwing down the middle is going to put crooked numbers on the scoreboard and it doesn't seem to matter what velocity it is down at. However, what I'm trying to accomplish is better pitching across the board and a staff of pitchers who can vary their pitches, keep the ball on the edges and doing so by eliminating the innings eater.

Pitchers have different roles based on their repertoire and ability to bounce back. I can only think of one pitcher who was successful with a single pitch and that Yankee failed as a starter. Some guys could throw 125+ pitches while others are toast at 25. Some can bounce back in a day or two and others take 3-5 days to recover. This is a function of anatomy and just trying to lengthen out doesn't work in many cases. Pitching remains command and control. Verland, Greinke, Kershaw, and Scherzer are living examples of how to pitch. Bieber and Nola are younger examples.

If a pitcher can only effectively give you 25... that's all you get. I don't know where Duran fits on the scale, he was a starter in the minors and a reliever in the majors. What we saw last year was a product of conventional usage (close to conventional usage) so it really doesn't answer the question of how many innings could effectively throw. I don't know the answer but I'd like to get as many as possible from a guy who was very productive in the 60 plus innings he was assigned. I'd like to get away from the days of throwing Bundy types throwing 140 innings with an ERA around 5 just to keep a rotation intact.

Whoever, your best pitchers are... get as much as can out of them. Find a different way to allocate those 1437 innings that need to be thrown by someone.

Linus · October 17, 2022

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm trying to eliminate the assigned roles like Starter and Closer.

I'd simply make him a pitcher and use him as often as you can to get more innings out of him. He can finish games in the 9th, He can start games in the 1st or enter at any time in a given ball game.

I know this won't happen but I contend that taking pitchers out of specific roles would make it easier to staff your roster with the best 13 arms and get more innings to your best.

I think you are spot on with all of this. An extension of this would be all pitchers would be conditioned multiple innings at every outing. No more one inning and I have to sit down stuff.

Original_JB · October 17, 2022

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

Are you aware of his problems with injuries as a starting pitcher (multiple innings)? We don't exactly know if Duran could morph back into a starter, a multiple innings guy, or even throw on back to back to back days. It sure seems like an experiment would come with the inevitable Tommy John or worse (shoulder). We don't know however.

Last Saturday games and the playoffs thus far have shown us what works best. Pitchers who move the ball around, vary their pitches, and keep the ball on the edges are successful. Velocity helps but isn't as important. Those who put a pitch in the heart get hurt, even by Harrison Bader. Nolan Ryan was hit hard when he threw it down the middle.

Pitchers have different roles based on their repertoire and ability to bounce back. I can only think of one pitcher who was successful with a single pitch and that Yankee failed as a starter. Some guys could throw 125+ pitches while others are toast at 25. Some can bounce back in a day or two and others take 3-5 days to recover. This is a function of anatomy and just trying to lengthen out doesn't work in many cases. Pitching remains command and control. Verland, Greinke, Kershaw, and Scherzer are living examples of how to pitch. Bieber and Nola are younger examples.

John Smoltz.

tony&rodney · October 17, 2022

MLB was going towards pitchers just throwing as long as they were effective when it was determined that 15 pitchers on a roster was too many and pitchers needed to face a minimum of three batters. We have also seen the massive shuttling of pitchers back and forth from milb and mlb. Tampa Bay and Seattle caused a new rule when they used so many pitchers in one season.

The construction of any pitching staff must consider innings along with quality. Pitchers don't just fit a mold that they are asked to fill. They need command and control of various pitches and must recognize their physical limitations. Management needs to have knowledge of what each guy is capable of doing as well. It's not easy being a pitcher.

tony&rodney · October 17, 2022

1 hour ago, Original_JB said:

John Smoltz.

What about John Smoltz? I'm not sure how he compares. He was 34 when he returned to become a reliever and was able to transition back into the rotation four years afterwards. He is a Hall of Fame pitcher. He had over 100 games and 700 innings in at the MLB level when he was Duran's age. I love Duran but after all of his injuries and the trouble he had when he went back to back, it seems fair to leave him in his effective position. I'm not looking for bad luck.

Richie the Rally Goat · October 18, 2022

3 hours ago, Original_JB said:

John Smoltz.

Rick Aguilera

Riverbrian · October 18, 2022