Athletic Trainer let go - No other changes to coaching staff

[Vanimal46]

Pete Maki will remain as pitching coach. Tommy “windmill” Watkins remains as 3B coach. 

[CRF]

Scapegoat move, even though they need better results in this area. WAY bigger problems with this organization than the trainer.

[nicksaviking]

Maki doesn't inspire much confidence, though to be fair, when on the mound, the starters were relatively effective, even after Wes Johnson left. Likely can't blame the pitching coach for any usage or injury criticisms. Joe Ryan getting better as the season wore on was pretty encouraging.

I was also hoping for fresh voices in the hitting coach department. Though the young bats tended to do well and it was the veteran hitters who didn't show up this year. I'm not sure of the entire dynamic, but you'd think the hitting coaches would tend to the young guys and assist the vets if and when needed. I guess I'd be more likely to lay Kepler/Polanco/Sano struggles at the feet of the players.

Either way, they're rolling with Rocco's guys which on the surface seems to bode well for him but I think underneath kind of indicates his fate is now in his own hands as they didn't find other coaches culpable. With everyone back, it would be a pretty simple restart if they clean house after 2023.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I’m pretty iffy on Maki but people make wayyyyy too big of a deal about the third base coach. His windmilling is a tiny part of his overall duties and I have no idea how good he is at those other duties so I have no real opinion on his coaching acumen as a whole. 

[KirbyDome89]

57 minutes ago, CRF said:

Scapegoat move

It is, and sadly too many will celebrate it as something entirely different. 

[KirbyDome89]

53 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Maki doesn't inspire much confidence, though to be fair, when on the mound, the starters were relatively effective, even after Wes Johnson left. Likely can't blame the pitching coach for any usage or injury criticisms. Joe Ryan getting better as the season wore on was pretty encouraging.

Either way, they're rolling with Rocco's guys which on the surface seems to bode well for him but I think underneath kind of indicates his fate is now in his own hands as they didn't find other coaches culpable. With everyone back, it would be a pretty simple restart if they clean house after 2023.

It's weird that the pitching coach and/or that entire staff, which has the best opportunity to be proactive when it comes to injuries, is getting a pass here, but the medical and training staffs, who are primarily reactive, are having their feet held to the fire. 

Ryan didn't really get better as the season went along. His ERA crested after a poor start in NY during early September, his June and July were kinda bad, and even though his August was decent, it was really feast or famine, which was his season in a nutshell. 

[Linus]

I’m surprised. As poorly as this team performed in nearly all phases and none lose their job?  From an overall perspective they were fundamentally poor in most phases of the game and the same coaches are supposed to clean that up?

I don’t get it other than this is FO hubris. They have the secret sauce and are sticking with it. If we have another poor year in 2023 the whole lot of them should go. 

[Doctor Gast]

Very disappointed, the ones that needed to go, stayed. The one let go, IMO had no impact on the issues we had. It shows me that this FO isn't serious.

[RonCoomersOPS]

35 minutes ago, Linus said:

I’m surprised. As poorly as this team performed in nearly all phases and none lose their job?  From an overall perspective they were fundamentally poor in most phases of the game and the same coaches are supposed to clean that up?

I don’t get it other than this is FO hubris. They have the secret sauce and are sticking with it. If we have another poor year in 2023 the whole lot of them should go. 

Another poor year? The team was playing important baseball games into September. Yeah they lost most of them, largely because half the 40 man roster was on the IL, but they were competitive in most of those games anyway.

That's not a poor year. A poor year is one where you don't play any important games past May. If they play a repeat of 2022 in 2023, that's not a poor year either and it's certainly not a reason to sack the front office.

[USAFChief]

Seems to me the trainer HAD to be fired, results were awful.

 

The same thing could be said for the 3rd base coach. At minimum.

 

I'd also argue both the hitting and pitching coaches were less than inspriring.

[Linus]

29 minutes ago, RonCoomersOPS said:

Another poor year? The team was playing important baseball games into September. Yeah they lost most of them, largely because half the 40 man roster was on the IL, but they were competitive in most of those games anyway.

That's not a poor year. A poor year is one where you don't play any important games past May. If they play a repeat of 2022 in 2023, that's not a poor year either and it's certainly not a reason to sack the front office.

If you finish under 500 in the central well yea it’s a poor year. Plus they play incredibly sloppy baseball. So yea I don’t think any of this looks good on the FO. 

[Irishman]

4 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Pete Maki will remain as pitching coach. Tommy “windmill” Watkins remains as 3B coach. 

Ugh! Tommy Watkins still is with Twins.   Sigh?  Oh Bummer!    I am not fond of him at all!

[tony&rodney]

I'm not surprised. Next there will be a Correa parting and then an offseason that gives Falvey an opportunity to display some skill. On mlb.com, Falvey had some weird comments and one that was ironic. He stated that a team with one high salary and a bunch of other players wouldn't work. I wonder if he has watched Cleveland play this year? Nevertheless, there is an entire offseason to see what happens and we could see some dramatic changes to the roster. I'm hopeful.

[Blyleven2011]

It's just the beginning of the off season and they let go the trainer ...

Maybe after the world series  there could be more changes to the coaches , we probably don't know the whole story  as of yet ...

Let's hope they try and upgrade some of the coaches  or make them work harder  to get the message of the plan through to the players  ,,,

The players have to accept the plan in order for the plan to work  and right now the plan is plainly not working  ...

[Danchat]

No new pitching coach, not even a new bullpen coach to replace Maki's old spot? Hmmm.... feels like this is setting up for the coaching staff to be blown up at the end of the 2023 season. Sorry for the needless pessimism, but that's just my hunch.

[nicksaviking]

4 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

It's weird that the pitching coach and/or that entire staff, which has the best opportunity to be proactive when it comes to injuries, is getting a pass here, but the medical and training staffs, who are primarily reactive, are having their feet held to the fire. 

Ryan didn't really get better as the season went along. His ERA crested after a poor start in NY during early September, his June and July were kinda bad, and even though his August was decent, it was really feast or famine, which was his season in a nutshell. 

Like I said, I wanted a new pitching coach(es) but how would anyone lay the injuries at Maki’s feet? Not only isn’t he the trainer, but he picked up the pieces after Wes Johnson abruptly left. What was he supposed to do to fix an ingrained system mid season?
 

And what’s not to like about Ryan’s finish? Yeah, August was decent, but not only did he have a 2,50 ERA in September, his strike out numbers jumped through the roof the last two months and he was regularly pitching into the 6th, 7th and 8th innings which was everyone’s biggest beef all season. 
 

I get most people tuned out after July, but Ryan was a huge bright spot. 

[DocBauer]

Sor not buying in to the trainer as being a sacrificial lamb to cover all of the other coaches. And secondly, despite the staff NOW, that doesn't mean additional changes won't happen in the future. 

I think it would be a bit absurd to blame one guy for the injury factor unless he was a warlock from either Cleveland or Chicago and nobody fully checked out his bio, lol. But regardless of sport, an athletic trainer is not just a guy who tapes ankles and passes out ibuprofen. They often work hand in hand with strength coaches, and can charge be in charge of, or part of, rehab and general conditioning. I've seen enough soft tissue injuries to believe maybe a different approach was needed. But I hope the FO digs deeper. Seems as though every 4-6 week recovery time turned out to be 6-8 weeks or not at all.

Maki, from what I've heard, is a pretty sharp guy who embraced everything Johnson pretty much did, but is a very different personality. So this might be a "continuation" of what is already liked. FWIW, I've heard the young Colby Suggs is considered a fast riser in the coaching ranks and very bright. He was pulled from his job as an advance pitching scout to remain with the staff after Johnson left.

Supposedly the players really love Hernandez and I just don't know enough about Popkins to have an opinion. The Twins had batting statistics that were in the upper third of all of MLB and finished near the bottom in others. How can you be one of the very best teams at scoring a runner from 3rd and one of the worst at advancing a runner from 2nd? Makes no sense. There is a disconnect somewhere. But how much of that is a fluke, or on the coaches, or on the players? I have no clue.

I also was very, very frustrated with Watkins at 3B and some of the waves home that looked utterly wrong. But I also saw a ton of plays where he read the defense and speed of the play well and made a great call sending the runner home. I think a 3B coach gets a lot of blame when things go bad and very little credit when things go right. It's the nature of the beast. If he's a good instructor...and I don't know that he is or isn't...I'm fine with keeping him and hoping he will do a better job on the plays that just don't look good from the beginning. I just think we sometimes remember the bad calls more than the good ones.

Making no excuses for the coaches. I just don't know enough about any of their individual strengths and weaknesses to say "so and so" should be replaced. I DO THINK if they remain status quo going forward, it's up to Rocco to change the emphasis on drills and work on the basics. I don't know that you can "teach" a player to hit better with 2 outs, but by God I think you CAN teach...or at least remind...your players some of the basics of where to throw the ball and run the bases better. If he's got coaches he think can coach, then make them COACH.

I am surprised about Tingler being retained. A couple of years ago he was the toast of San Diego. And then the Padres disappointed greatly the second year. So is he good or bad? He might be a really sharp baseball guy in the wrong spot. I really believe Rocco is better served with an older bench coach who has been around and seen a lot who can just offer up a different perspective. And maybe he doesn't have to be an "old timer", but someone who has experience managing in the minors and coaching, maybe managing at the ML level previously, who has just seen a lot, been there and done that, who could offer a different perspective. It's not about hating analytics or dismissing scouting reports, just someone who can offer up a different feel and perspective. I mean, just for example sake, a less firey Guillen or younger Gardenhire type.

Rocco needs to make his coaches coach more. But I think they're making a mistake at bench coach.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

There was a weird bunch of wrist injuries in September. I don’t know how preventable those are or how well exercises work. 

[Rosterman]

Still possibilities of trainers leaving for other jobs, or the Twins getting coach poached. 

Man, coaching has sure changed since the glory days of Billy Gardner and staying in a Motel Room at the Super 8, with a staff of Karl Kuehl, Jim Lemon, Tom Kelly, Johnny Podres and Jim Shellenback, and Rick Stelmaszek!

[Squirrel]

8 hours ago, CRF said:

Scapegoat move, even though they need better results in this area. WAY bigger problems with this organization than the trainer.

I don’t think it was a scapegoat move at all. It was needed. But that they retained a,l the other coaches? Hmmm … maybe they could or will make changes yet

[RonCoomersOPS]

5 hours ago, Linus said:

If you finish under 500 in the central well yea it’s a poor year. Plus they play incredibly sloppy baseball. So yea I don’t think any of this looks good on the FO. 

They were over .500 and leading the division into September, despite a ton of injuries, and only finished below .500 due to even more injuries forcing 3rd and 4th choice players getting regular playing time.

There's a *huge* difference between your core totally falling apart at the end of the year and, say, being out of it in April as the Tigers and Royals were (or the Twins were, in 2021).

[KirbyDome89]

2 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Like I said, I wanted a new pitching coach(es) but how would anyone lay the injuries at Maki’s feet? Not only isn’t he the trainer, but he picked up the pieces after Wes Johnson abruptly left. What was he supposed to do to fix an ingrained system mid season?
 

And what’s not to like about Ryan’s finish? Yeah, August was decent, but not only did he have a 2,50 ERA in September, his strike out numbers jumped through the roof the last two months and he was regularly pitching into the 6th, 7th and 8th innings which was everyone’s biggest beef all season. 
 

I get most people tuned out after July, but Ryan was a huge bright spot. 

Maki was the pitching coordinator in the minors prior to joining the big league club; he's an architect of the ingrained system. I highly doubt he was promoted because the organization viewed that system as needing to be fixed. I'm not laying the injuries at Maki's feet. I think the injuries were a combo of luck and bad decision making. I'm sure some of the poor decisions came from above his head; ditto for the trainer that was just relieved of his job. I think it's odd that the group in charge of dictating the frequency and level of stress to place on these arms is being given a pass, while the group that deals primarily with the aftermath is being held accountable. 

Eh, a couple good games in September after a rough middle part of the season isn't what I'd call improving as the season wore on. I like Ryan, I'm glad they have him, but he absolutely feasted on some really bad teams, and struggled when he had to face decent lineups. I was tuned in enough this season to notice that didn't change at any point during the year. 

[TwinsDr2021]

7 hours ago, RonCoomersOPS said:

They were over .500 and leading the division into September, despite a ton of injuries, and only finished below .500 due to even more injuries forcing 3rd and 4th choice players getting regular playing time.

There's a *huge* difference between your core totally falling apart at the end of the year and, say, being out of it in April as the Tigers and Royals were (or the Twins were, in 2021).

Based on spotrac they spent 157 million dollars. They traded a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and pick and all the injured guys minus Polanco are regularly injured, so yes 2022 started well but they ended up 3rd in the central and under .500 that is pretty much the definition of poor. It wasn't terrible because they started well and developed Ryan, Miranda and Duran. But I respect that you think the season wasn't poor.

[stringer bell]

We've seen several injury trends with the Twins: 1) "Minor" injury keeps player out for several days, then he goes on IL for more than the minimum stay. 2) 10-day IL expands to several weeks or months. 3) Player tries to play through injury with less-than-optimum results and then is placed on IL or goes for surgery. I don't know if these scenarios come about from a lack of communication with the player or a lack of communication with medical professionals who consult with the trainer and management or something else, but they have been repeated too often to ignore. 

Apparently, the Twins weren't satisfied with Salazar's performance. As noted above, he could just be a scapegoat or his performance was unacceptable. I do think the Twins need to change things regarding injury. Their throwing plans should be reviewed to see if there is a critical point where injuries develop. They need to prioritize durability in both drafting and acquisitions. Finally, they need to upgrade communication between everyone so that there is better understanding of injuries earlier in the process. 

I hope firing Salazar is step one in revamping their diagnosis and treatment of injuries. They have finished each of the last four seasons under Rocco with a battered roster that had no chance to compete against elite teams.

[Trov]

15 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Like I said, I wanted a new pitching coach(es) but how would anyone lay the injuries at Maki’s feet? Not only isn’t he the trainer, but he picked up the pieces after Wes Johnson abruptly left. What was he supposed to do to fix an ingrained system mid season?
 

And what’s not to like about Ryan’s finish? Yeah, August was decent, but not only did he have a 2,50 ERA in September, his strike out numbers jumped through the roof the last two months and he was regularly pitching into the 6th, 7th and 8th innings which was everyone’s biggest beef all season. 
 

I get most people tuned out after July, but Ryan was a huge bright spot. 

I think most people are upset at his performances against the better line ups, Dodgers, Padres, Boston(can argue not all that great) and Yankees he was not good.  However, I fully agree, he still pitched well enough to be happy with how he closed out the season.  People need to remember he missed a few weeks with COVID and if he was out all that time it will affect you. 

[Trov]

2 hours ago, stringer bell said:

We've seen several injury trends with the Twins: 1) "Minor" injury keeps player out for several days, then he goes on IL for more than the minimum stay. 2) 10-day IL expands to several weeks or months. 3) Player tries to play through injury with less-than-optimum results and then is placed on IL or goes for surgery. I don't know if these scenarios come about from a lack of communication with the player or a lack of communication with medical professionals who consult with the trainer and management or something else, but they have been repeated too often to ignore. 

Apparently, the Twins weren't satisfied with Salazar's performance. As noted above, he could just be a scapegoat or his performance was unacceptable. I do think the Twins need to change things regarding injury. Their throwing plans should be reviewed to see if there is a critical point where injuries develop. They need to prioritize durability in both drafting and acquisitions. Finally, they need to upgrade communication between everyone so that there is better understanding of injuries earlier in the process. 

I hope firing Salazar is step one in revamping their diagnosis and treatment of injuries. They have finished each of the last four seasons under Rocco with a battered roster that had no chance to compete against elite teams.

There is so much with injuries we do not even know.  We do not know how much of a roll he played in some of the things going on, or was it other medical guys, or what.  However, if the FO feels he needed to go to better the team I got no issue with it.  People to are calling it a scape goat thing just shows some level of ignorance.  They would seem to argue he played no roll in the injuries and the time to return.  Of course some of the injury onsets of tears and breaks would never be the trainer or anyone's real fault, but the soft muscle things I believe would be more on the trainer, but again, I do not truly know how the process works, only people on the team really do. Maybe, for all we know he asked to be let go for his personal reasons, to my knowledge nothing has really been reported about it, just that he is gone. 

[Nashvilletwin]

Questions for all of my fellow TDers.

Given the available evidence and the announcements re keeping the coaching staff and firing the trainer:

1. Should we expect this team to play better (better than average at least) fundamental baseball?

2. Will our manager, through his lineup and in game decisions, be responsible for more more net wins or losses vis-a-vis other managers next season?

3. Independent of health, are you confident that this coaching staff will be able to develop the young players on the team to the best of the players’ abilities?

4. Will this team develop the mental fortitude to compete against both leagues’ best teams, as well as specific AL teams such as the Yankees, Astros, and, now unfortunately, the Guardians?

5.  Is the health of the players solely a function of the trainer and associated staff, completely independent of the manager and his coaching staff?

Please answer objectively - free of bias and affections.

(Not that anyone cares, but my answers are five no’s. Without significant improvement in each of those areas, expectations should be tempered for next year.  I hope I’m wrong and the retained coaching staff plus the new trainer can make big strides.  I just don’t see the evidence pointing to that likelihood - I’m sure others must, including the Pohlads).

[Battle ur tail off]

3 hours ago, Trov said:

There is so much with injuries we do not even know.  We do not know how much of a roll he played in some of the things going on, or was it other medical guys, or what.  However, if the FO feels he needed to go to better the team I got no issue with it.  People to are calling it a scape goat thing just shows some level of ignorance.  They would seem to argue he played no roll in the injuries and the time to return.  Of course some of the injury onsets of tears and breaks would never be the trainer or anyone's real fault, but the soft muscle things I believe would be more on the trainer, but again, I do not truly know how the process works, only people on the team really do. Maybe, for all we know he asked to be let go for his personal reasons, to my knowledge nothing has really been reported about it, just that he is gone. 

Some of the soft muscle injuries are another way to say I'm sore. Half of the injuries to this club weren't injuries 10 years ago. That has as much to with guys missing time as anything IMO.

It is what it is, but some toughness to be applied to this squad would be the best thing to happen to them. Yes, if you're injured, you are injured. But there are times when we need ya guy, get your butt back out there even if you do have a bruise on your leg.

It is the same thing with pulling your guys early all the time or resting them more than most teams. Flat out this team is soft.

Cutting this guy I don't think will have any effect on the club. If they really thought we needed to overhaul things, the entire department would be re-worked. Scape-goat is a perfect analogy for this firing.