How Can Rocco Baldelli Regain Twins Fans Favor?

[TwinsDr2021]

2 minutes ago, Mark G said:

I can't argue with a whole lot of the above, but what happens when their numbers 1, 2 and maybe even 3 pitch 6 or 7 innings (or more?) and ours pitch 5, or 5 1/3, or 5 2/3?  Then it comes down to bullpen depth.  Can we match that as well?  Will we continue to stick with the 3rd and 4th times through the lineup plan, or will we let our best pitchers stay on the mound?  Would the plan change just because it is a playoff game?  My gut tells me that if you won't let a guy try for his no hitter because of a pitch count, you won't change for anything.  So we need to get a BP of studs or what we see is what we get.  

To be honest the playoffs are a completely different game, unless the score is out of hand the starters even the best aren't pitching super deep into games. It just so happens that the Twins play just about every game as it was a playoff series and that doesn't work during a 162 game schedule, if with the best bullpens.

[Nashvilletwin]

Get himself traded for Terry Francona. We will throw in Pagan to sweeten the deal.

 

[Doctor Gast]

I'm all for analytics but I'd rather have a manager that has a good feel for the game, a good game plan & able to adjust quickly to the shifting of the game.

Although Baldelli has some good qualities, I'd rather have kept Sheldon as manager & Rowson as bench coach. FO has always said that they have a plan but never really told us that plan. A game plan of swinging for the fences that was great for '19 has only produced SOs, FOs & void of fundamentals like SBs, sacrifice bunting & etc & resulting in loses in the post juiceball era.

 Many fans jumped on the positive hype band wagon of Happ, Shoemaker & Colume' from the start and they were wrong. In the same way they have jumped on the negative hype band wagon of Chris Archer & Dylan Bundy, they are again wrong.

FO hinted during the off season the possibility of "piggy-backing". Their assessment was spot on, because we had only rookies & Bundy written in the rotation, providing a very weak rotation, plus we had only a short spring training to look forward to. The traditionalists were appalled yet the forward looking fans reaction were open to applauding this strategy.

Even with the addition of Gray (shorter yet ST & apparent not in condition) & Archer (previously injured & practically no ST) entering the season, still proved to be a weak rotation. Any form of piggy-backing (for some reason {maybe Baldelli?}) was abandoned. So the strategy to fill the gap between SP & closer. was doubling down on RPs that were obviously not capable, overrelying on poor short relief and over extend our weak rotation until their wheels fell off. So I agree with you Ted this approach was totally illogical.

Our strongest & more feasible pitching resource was long relief. We had strong candidates in Ober, Winder, Smeltzer & Sands later A Sanchez, Cotton, Varland & SWR. If long relief was implemented & used, the unnecessary burden on the SP & short relief would've been relieved, converting many loses into wins. Our problem wasn't that Archer & Bundy weren't pitching enough innings, they provided us with plenty of quality innings inside their profile. The problem was they weren't adequately supplemented with long relief.

Wins is what matters, if FO & Baldelli change their mindsets that results in wins, Baldelli (FO) will regain their favor with the fans.

[Riverbrian]

How Can Rocco Baldelli Regain Twins Fans Favor?

He can't regain favor with the segment of fans who think he needs to regain favor with the fans. 

 

 

[Aggies7]

If Arraez can play, and isn’t because of the batting average title chase, I may actually be ashamed to be a fan of this team. Over cautious about everything is no way to run a team and no way to earn the attention of the fans.

[rv78]

2021 was a collapse brought on by the FO and the Manager. Signing the likes of Shoemaker and Happ and using an ineffective pitcher like Colome doomed the team from the start. Not reloading properly cost the season before it even started and not adjusting by the manager to poor performances sent it into a death spiral. To blame anyone other than the FO and the Manager for the collapse is foolish. To make matters worse they followed the same strategy in the off-season this year by signing Bundy and Archer who couldn't be counted on and a Manager who did the same thing with Pagan as he did with Colome. To make matters worse the President of baseball operations for the Twins, Dave St Peter thinks they are doing an excellent job and said they will be here for many many seasons. Maybe it will take Target Field to be even more empty next year for those who are in charge to notice the fans don't like the product. It's the only voice that will be heard.

[h2oface]

…… and Joe Maddon is still available!!

Baldelli would make a great bench coach. 
 

[FlyingFinn]

31 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Wins is what matters, if FO & Baldelli change their mindsets that results in wins, Baldelli (FO) will regain their favor with the fans.

I disagree somewhat. I believe the Twins could win the World Series in 2023 and many on TD who have posted in this thread would still want to get rid of Baldelli, saying the players won it and not the manager.

The Twins being 28th in starting pitching innings isn't totally Baldelli's fault. They had an agreement with Archer to limit his pitches/innings per start to keep him healthy. The intent with Bundy from the day he was signed was never to go past 2 times through the order in a close game.

My problem with Baldelli is where he can control things - fundamentals. If Watkins keeps making mistakes as a 3B coach, put someone else there. Players have to know how to bunt, move the runner over, and run the bases. 

[BH67]

Per Ted: 

"...short starts aren’t simply a Twins thing, and they really aren’t a Baldelli thing either. Baseball has trended toward pulling pitchers earlier as hitters have become so much more advanced, and there are so few truly elite arms."

Ted, in what way statistically do you mean this?

[Wizard11]

To answer the question posed I would say the obvious answer is WIN.  Call this point #1.  IMO most fans would get excited and support a winning team.  A small percentage would believe every win was luck and every loss was Rocco’s fault.

To be clear I am not advocating for Rocco or the FO.  The early pulling of starting pitchers suggests a lack of situational awareness and mathematics.  If your rested starter is possibly at risk of getting hit hard the third time thru the order vs replacing them with a overused, exhausted reliever perhaps you take the smaller risk of leaving the starter out there another inning.  

The mathematics reference is regarding starters averaging 4.8 innings.  Implicit with this is your bullpen pitches an average of 4.2 innings every game for 162 games.  This is without consideration for the 8-10 extra inning games that will likely occur.  It would be interesting to see the modeled probabilities of having a championship team with a bullpen that throws 700 or more innings in the regular season.  I use the term “modeled” because the extra inning rule change has reduced the length of extra inning games so their is probably not enough historical data to reasonably answer that question.

I am not suggesting that heavy bullpen usage can’t work but I am suggesting it is not probable.  I realize their are many more possible points of contention than pitching usage but i am using that example as it is probably the most contentious one.  I dislike the argument that we should use an approach because “all the other teams are doing it”.  Our management team is supposedly compromised of innovators.

So back to point #1.  Fans are most likely to support your management philosophy and style if it actually works.
 

 

[FritzDahmus]

Resign.

But if that's not possible....By not doing what he did to Ober last night. You're Twins fans....you know what he did.

Tired of detailing why Rocco is terrible, gutless, unemotional, uninspiring, and a manager with clearly a lack-of-the-moment sense...

[lukeduke1980]

A more rigid lineup.   Injuries aside, it still felt like a different lineup every game.  Players through the years have reiterated that as important. 

[TwinsDr2021]

49 minutes ago, FlyingFinn said:

I disagree somewhat. I believe the Twins could win the World Series in 2023 and many on TD who have posted in this thread would still want to get rid of Baldelli, saying the players won it and not the manager.

Really? If nothing changes philosophy wise and the Twins won the world series the nay sayers (me included) would give him his rightly due props, we still might not like the way the game is played/managed but I know I am a big enough person to admit when I am wrong. The question is if nothing changes and the Twins don't at least win a playoff series next year (at minimum) are the Rocco backers going to admit it doesn't work or will they claim next year is another rebuilding year?

[silverslugger]

Just adding my two cents, which is very similar to a lot of the other comments.  Make better in game decisions in terms of situational baseball.  Actually have a plan with a running game.  Have expectations in terms of defense.  I don't even care about post-season wins at this point.  Do those things listed above well, and the rest will take care of itself if the front office gives you the horses and the horses maintain average health compared to the league.

[GopherJeff]

5 hours ago, Mark G said:

Give us something to watch.   

Exactly.
Unreliable relief pitchers = repeated blown saves.
Unhealthy position players = minor leaguers playing every day.
Inability to acquire/develop a legitimate #1 starter = guys like Archer and Bundy pitching every 5th day.
Inflexible decision making = fan disenchantment.

The Twin Cities metro (3.7 M) is the 16th largest by population in the US. If the team's management wants better than 22,000 average attendance, they need to address all of these oft-cited problems. (St. Louis is 21st in population (2.8 M) and they average 41,000 per game.)

 

[Fire Dan Gladden]

2 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

If Arraez can play, and isn’t because of the batting average title chase, I may actually be ashamed to be a fan of this team. Over cautious about everything is no way to run a team and no way to earn the attention of the fans.

A tad off-topic, but somebody better call Tom Kelly about how he handled Allan Anderson in 1988.

[Kevin Urdahl]

Two of the worst examples of giving the pitcher too early hook from critical Sept. games:

1) Louis Varland's debut in NY. Was absolutely dominating the Yankees, but Rocco pulled him with a 3-1 lead with one out in the 5th with a runner on first. At the time he had 80 pitches and had allowed 3 hits, 1 BB, and 1 ER. I as listening to the Yankees radio broadcast at the time, and their broadcaster's were incredulous. One asked, "Is their manager even watching the game? Does he see what's going on out there?" The other said, "It's hard to watch the game when your head is buried in your laptop." Then Jax allowed a two run homer, the game went 12 innings, and they burned 6 pitchers, lost the game and had another doubleheader that night.

2) First game of critical 5 game series in Cleveland. Had a doubleheader the following day. Ober was absolutely cruising through 5. 1 hit, 1 BB, and no runs. Only 70 pitches. Ober's first game back, but before the game Baldelli said no restrictions on Ober's pitch count. Baldelli pulled him after 5. Lost the game. Burned their best 4 relievers and were unavailable for doubleheader the following day. Crazy.

I think analytics can be good if used with enough sophistication, but I argue they are applying analytics too simplistically. I understand that on average it is better to bring in a reliever than let your starter go through the order a third time, but is that really true if your starter is dominating and has pitched a shutout through five? I doubt it. Also, what are the analytics for how to manage your pitchers for an entire series and not just a single game? Sometimes it makes sense to ride pitchers longer, and if they applied more complexity to their analytics, I bet they'd see the same. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

5 hours ago, MABB1959 said:

How about an above average stable line-up.  We as fans need to know our team good or bad.  Right now it is horrible and barely a recognizable name.  Seems we get a good player or pitcher they are gone as quickly as we get them.  Really the only players to get excited for this year were Arraz, Buxton and Correa.  Arraz is so stable an likeable, Buxton is very likeable and so exciting when on the field and at bat.  He was barely in the field (DH'd more games than I like) and we as fans didn't get a chance to know Correa and probably didn't get as excited because his time is most likely short lived.  Baldelli changes the line-up based on stats.  He will "rest" a hot player just based on the opposing teams pitcher.  There is no accountability either.  He runs sub-par players out all the time.  I hate to pick on Kepler but he probably should have been a bench player and they should have found a right fielder that can hit as well as field.  Plus he is just a little boring doesn't seem to have the fire he should.  We are searching but unwilling to pay pitchers.  We let Berrios go without a blink of an eye without replacing with a better or even an equal replacement.  Yes he struggled but he has the fire most fans like to see.  

They are not very transparent or even in the fight for the top players.  My gut feeling is no players in the prime of their career want to come here.  Why would you want to go to a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 18 tries.  Also it doesn't take a baseball genius to see a team that seems to look for re-treads instead of real MLB quality players.

He also needs to look at his coaching and medical staff.  Hard to get players from AAA to the MLB.  As for injuries hard to blame him but they obviously don't have a good medical staff or trainers.  Too many muscle strains and pains for what should be highly athletic players.  The rehab process does not seem very good either.

 

 

This post typifies, what I see in anti-Rocco posts. Attributing things to Rocco, that the fan doesn’t like about the front office. Rocco doesn’t get to choose the scouting or medical staffs. He doesn’t sign free agents, or set the roster.

the only thing Rocco could do to make Twins fans happy, is not be Rocco Baldelli.

[Platoon]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

How Can Rocco Baldelli Regain Twins Fans Favor?

He can't regain favor with the segment of fans who think he needs to regain favor with the fans. 

 

 

But can he lose favor with the ones who thinks he walks on water?    This question is probably moot since Rocco has been shown that such a feat is analytically impossible, thereby removing it from his consciousness. 

[gunnarthor]

At the end of the day, the Twins have underachieved the last few years and they aren't fun to watch. Maybe it's not his fault but he certainly isn't part of the solution. Move on, try something new.

[Rosterman]

After a lost season of COVID in the cardboard stands and few people the following hyear, plus a shift to Bally Sports.....I think the issue is more how the new Twins uniforms will look and the branding the club does going forth.

Who are the marketable players? The Twins have to start by supporting Minnesota (and Midwest) events. Better presence than they had at the Minnesota State Fair would've been nice. They have to do more than just the pre-season Caravan, as baseball suffered bigtime in this state.

 

[Mark G]

29 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

This post typifies, what I see in anti-Rocco posts. Attributing things to Rocco, that the fan doesn’t like about the front office. Rocco doesn’t get to choose the scouting or medical staffs. He doesn’t sign free agents, or set the roster.

the only thing Rocco could do to make Twins fans happy, is not be Rocco Baldelli.

Ummmm...........yeah.

He manages the free agents and he manages the roster.  And he should do it differently than he does.  That's what the posts typifies.  

[MisstheBomba]

Baldelli looks like he is bored as heck, ignoring everyone in the dugout. Tell me why a beer guzzling, smoker, not as fit as today’s guys could pitch 8 innings but they get the hook in the 5th inning in 2022? Are our players so delicate they bump their pinkie and they are out 2 wks. You all knew what Buxton was when you gave him all that money. Hire some new coaches with better attitudes. I want Hrbek as a Coach cuz he put the fun in Baseball as did Nelly Cruz!

[spanman2]

7 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

Talk to Tom Kelly about fundamentals.  Talk to Molitor about running. Talk to Gardy about fan relations.  Stop telling us the team really did well, despite losing - we all have eyes.  Stop sticking with RP when they prove they are not good - Colombe, Pagan, Lopez...Start sticking with SP when they are going well. If the give up a hit in their last inning it does not mean they are done.  

It would be interesting to hear TK'S takes on lack of bunting for a hit (especially against the severe shifts) or lack of base stealing/teams not executing a safety squeeze/hit & run etc.  Baseball as a whole is certainly not the game it was when those things occurred.  

[killertwinfan]

Play baseball.  Run to steal bases, hit and run, bunt, and improve the percentage of quality AB’s. Stop taking out good pitchers for bad pitchers. Prolly a few more things, but i don’t expect those to change either. 

[Mike Sixel]

7 hours ago, Captain18s said:

How about a steal, a bunt, or a hit and run to create some runs and excitement instead of waiting for the 5 run homer every night. I also do not think the team is sound fundamentally. These guys have been playing baseball for over 20 years. No excuse for such lack of base running skills and fielding mistakes. Watch the good teams.

The Atlanta team bunted 4 times this year.........Bunting is dying for good reasons.

I do agree, their fast players (um, who are those?) should try to steal more. I'm hopeful Lewis and Martin are up at some point next year, and that number jumps. But, they have zero infielders that should be trying, and once Buxton was out, which OF did you want to try to steal more often?

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

At the end of the day, the Twins have underachieved the last few years and they aren't fun to watch. Maybe it's not his fault but he certainly isn't part of the solution. Move on, try something new.

They pretty much finished where non-fans projected them to this year. I'm not sure how they underachieved. And that was with assuming they wouldn't lose their top 5 outfielders all at the same time for most of the second half of the year.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

This post typifies, what I see in anti-Rocco posts. Attributing things to Rocco, that the fan doesn’t like about the front office. Rocco doesn’t get to choose the scouting or medical staffs. He doesn’t sign free agents, or set the roster.

the only thing Rocco could do to make Twins fans happy, is not be Rocco Baldelli.

This. So many fans here just hate on him (those fans probably loved him the first two years). The kinds of things people say are just mean spirited.....especially on this site.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, GopherJeff said:

Exactly.
Unreliable relief pitchers = repeated blown saves.
Unhealthy position players = minor leaguers playing every day.
Inability to acquire/develop a legitimate #1 starter = guys like Archer and Bundy pitching every 5th day.
Inflexible decision making = fan disenchantment.

The Twin Cities metro (3.7 M) is the 16th largest by population in the US. If the team's management wants better than 22,000 average attendance, they need to address all of these oft-cited problems. (St. Louis is 21st in population (2.8 M) and they average 41,000 per game.)

 

What of that is in the manager's control? NONE OF IT. 

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, h2oface said:

…… and Joe Maddon is still available!!

Baldelli would make a great bench coach. 
 

How many playoff appearances has Maddon had with LA? Perhaps it was the FO in TB and Chicago?