Baldelli will be back in 2023

[LastOnePicked]

11 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I mean are there a lot of managers out there that have taken bad prospects throughout their minor league careers and turned them into highly successful major leaguers when they were forced into big league action? A lot of managers out there turning Dobnak and Smeltzer types into Maddux and Kofax?

I don't expect this out of any MLB manager. This task seems better suited to scouting and MiLB development. And I don't ding Rocco for this. If this were my argument, Gordon's development would easily be a point in Rocco's favor.

But to say that Rocco hasn't been given talent just doesn't add up. Rocco started his tenure here with the benefit of a fairly highly-ranked farm system and annual payrolls that have been in the top half of the league. To be fair, you were referencing 2022, but I'm not just advocating his firing over 2022, but rather that 2022 represents a culmination of failures that don't suggest an ability to shape a championship club, even in the best of circumstances. 

And I'm sorry, but his excuse-making after the recent KC losses - where he even argued that the territory between KC's infield and outfield is somehow larger than most stadiums (that's absurd) and THAT'S why his players were letting pop flies fall in for hits, that just represents a loser's attitude. It's an attitude I fear has become contagious.

You're right - there are probably only a handful of great managers in MLB, and Rocco clearly isn't one of them. Doesn't it make sense that we should at least try to get one of the great ones? Doesn't a mid-to-small market team need the best coaching available to try and offset the payroll spending limitations?

Anyways, that's my closing argument on this topic. I'll let it rest. For now.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, rwilfong86 said:

See previous post. 1,2 and 4 are nearly always the same. I'm not sure what is so hard to see about that or how that is "provably wrong". They aren't 100% the same, but the no team will run the same lineup on the field 162 games. And nice job editing your previous post. 

Thank you, I kept finding more and more reasons why you're wrong so had to keep adding things.

And, again, the Twins top 5 were nearly always the same when they were healthy. Even right now, before the last 2 or 3 games the top 3 was always Arraez, Correa, Miranda. You. Are. Wrong. It's ok to just say it felt like the Twins changed their lineups a lot and you didn't like it. But you provided a team as being consistent when they simply aren't any more consistent than the Twins have been. It's totally fine to not like Rocco, and he gives many reasons to dislike him, but you're wrong on this.

Nobody is saying use the same lineup 162 games, but 1 injury (Marte) has lead the Mets to use 13 different lineups in 13 games. But you don't think injuries are a reason for Rocco to change lineups. You've gone from "they need consistent lineups!" to "well the Mets keep 33% of their lineup the same." Yikes.

[chpettit19]

3 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

I don't expect this out of any MLB manager. This task seems better suited to scouting and MiLB development. And I don't ding Rocco for this. If this were my argument, Gordon's development would easily be a point in Rocco's favor.

But to say that Rocco hasn't been given talent just doesn't add up. Rocco started his tenure here with the benefit of a fairly highly-ranked farm system and annual payrolls that have been in the top half of the league. To be fair, you were referencing 2022, but I'm not just advocating his firing over 2022, but rather that 2022 represents a culmination of failures that don't suggest an ability to shape a championship club, even in the best of circumstances. 

And I'm sorry, but his excuse-making after the recent KC losses - where he even argued that the territory between KC's infield and outfield is somehow larger than most stadiums (that's absurd) and THAT'S why his players were letting pop flies fall in for hits, that just represents a loser's attitude. It's an attitude I fear has become contagious.

You're right - there are probably only a handful of great managers in MLB, and Rocco clearly isn't one of them. Doesn't it make sense that we should at least try to get one of the great ones? Doesn't a mid-to-small market team need the best coaching available to try and offset the payroll spending limitations?

Anyways, that's my closing argument on this topic. I'll let it rest. For now.

My follow up question would simply be, what seasons did the Twins have a lot of talent and significantly underperform? He's been here 4 years now. They made the playoffs and had .600+ winning percentages his first 2. You've agreed 2022 was a season that he wasn't given much talent. So that leaves just 2021.

Again, I'm not saying he shouldn't be let go. Not saying he should be either. Just trying to follow the logic. Because a lot of it just sounds like "he doesn't do things the way I want so now that the team is bad I want him gone." That's not necessarily directed at you as your view, but what many of the arguments on these boards boil down to. Basically the team won in spite of him, and now lose because of him because some fans don't like certain strategies. They've also tried to say these short starts are a hardcore Rocco mainstay when 2022 is the first season it's been nearly this drastic. As proven by Berrios throwing 200 innings under Rocco. I'm just speaking about the general arguments made on these boards against him. Most are rants against modern baseball while the few others are mostly revisionist history (Twins had 9th best ERA in baseball in 2019 but people don't give Rocco credit for that and just point to the HRs as carrying him, for example).

I didn't see his quote about the KC outfield (I've stopped watching the games), but different outfields are different sizes so without knowing exactly what he said or was trying to say there's certainly something to that. Like Colorado outfielders need to cover more ground (more space between an outfielder and the infield) than at Target Field.

[tony&rodney]

55 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

When it comes to just Rocco, I think the argument can be made that he wasn't given talented enough players to get much more out of them than this. The reason I think most of us didn't expect great things was because we didn't think the team was that talented. To then turn around and blame Rocco for not getting more out of a not very talented team doesn't totally compute. 

Further developing untalented players is an interesting manager grading point. I mean are there a lot of managers out there that have taken bad prospects throughout their minor league careers and turned them into highly successful major leaguers when they were forced into big league action? A lot of managers out there turning Dobnak and Smeltzer types into Maddux and Kofax? It's part of why I don't think managers have a huge effect on things.

I think Rocco is just another manager. And the guy who replaces him will far more than likely be just another manager. And the guy who replaces him will also very likely be just another manager. I think there's a tendency to get too caught up on managers. There's very few great ones, and very few terrible ones. It's why we see managers go from "manager of the year" to managing a sub .500 team all the time. Dave Roberts manages pretty darn similarly to Rocco. Both heavily weigh analytics in their decisions. Is Roberts why the Dodgers win so many games? Or is he just another manager, but happens to have a roster full of all stars, MVPs, and Cy Young winners?

Talent is often more difficult to acquire than front office/manager types. Do we accept that the Twins will just have less talent and that the manager cannot be expected to make lemonade? I'm not sure where the Twins go with your thoughts. I can agree on talent and the relative worth of a manager. But, what can be done to escape mediocrity? 

What does stand out from the current era of Twins baseball is a stubborn refusal to play fundamental baseball. When the same mistakes are made multiple times per game all season long, this reflects on management. The Plan is a disaster. Not only has this exposed the bullpen and led to any number of defeats, it is a real sore point with a starting pitcher who actually has good stuff in inning five.

What to do? I don't know but running back the same ideas will result in more losses next year than this year because without Correa or some major changes in personal the Twins will field a far less talented team in 2023.

[Nashvilletwin]

5 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

As I read this and think about it I do feel better about Rocco as a manager. 
I do think his young players (none of whom were global top prospects as they arrived at the big league club) have performed better made even much better than expected. Let’s start with Luis Arraez in 2019. Look at the huge step Jorge Polanco took in 2019. How about Byron Buxton before 2019 and since? They somehow squeezed good innings out of Dobnak and Smeltzer. Was anything expected of Bailey Ober? Joe Ryan was not a global a top 100 prospect. Johan Duran has been magnificent. Lewis excelled in his short time here.

Looking at those rosters the Twins have had to entrust several young players with important roles and none was a global top prospect at the time they were entrusted with that spot. Buxton was once but he was coming of a historically awful 2018. A side effect of entrusting young players is going to be more fundamental mistakes.

I do think Baldelli is the right person to lead what will be a young team in 2023.

 

Thank you, you addressed one of the questions. Re that specific question, what about Kepler, Sano, Berrios.  Buxton is hardly a a good example. Arraez almost seems like an accident, but ok.  Same with Polanco - he’s been a success. But Ryan (just got him) Ober (let’s see)  Dobnak (love him, but please) are hardly good examples. Duran has potential, but it’s still early. There are really very few examples of long term ongoing development of true starters under Rocco.  Mixed at best.

How about the other questions?  I’m sincerely interested in an objective review of Rocco’s performance. 

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

Then what the h-e-double-hockey-sticks are we all arguing about here? ?

Based on your read of the predictions, shouldn't we all be ready for a change? I mean, if the consensus was that this team would not contend, and they are not contenders, why is the fanbase split?

Or let me put it more honestly: I simply don't understand what happened this season that would warrant Rocco's return in 2023. Maybe that's just what I need to admit. What are some of you seeing that I can't see? What about this team seems improved? What has Rocco helped to develop here that gets us closer to a title? Or is it just fear of change that makes firing the manager seem scary?

Because it's the players, not the manager..... Many of us that predicted around a .500 record were worried about the players. 

[LastOnePicked]

9 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Because it's the players, not the manager

Ah, got it. So Pagan forced himself into the closer role for five consecutive blown saves against Cleveland. Perhaps through force or threat of force? Extortion? Now things are clearer. I apologize for my earlier hasty judgement.

C'mon, even Gleeman and the Geek seem comfortable admitting that Rocco's had a terrible year in terms of decision-making. I'm fine to have it be an "and the players" sort of thing, but the buck has to stop somewhere, doesn't it? I mean, this team has quit in September. Not just lost - quit. That's a real problem.

[Mike Sixel]

13 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

Ah, got it. So Pagan forced himself into the closer role for five consecutive blown saves against Cleveland. Perhaps through force or threat of force? Extortion? Now things are clearer. I apologize for my earlier hasty judgement.

C'mon, even Gleeman and the Geek seem comfortable admitting that Rocco's had a terrible year in terms of decision-making. I'm fine to have it be an "and the players" sort of thing, but the buck has to stop somewhere, doesn't it? I mean, this team has quit in September. Not just lost - quit. That's a real problem.

He may have, that doesn't have anything to do with my post, that it is largely the players. They didn't quit, they just aren't good enough, imo. He maybe should be fired, but the record is going to be what nearly everyone predicted, way back when everyone was healthy.... So I'm not sure how this is his fault.

Whether the buck should stop this year or not? I don't know. 

[jorgenswest]

54 minutes ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Thank you, you addressed one of the questions. Re that specific question, what about Kepler, Sano, Berrios.  Buxton is hardly a a good example. Arraez almost seems like an accident, but ok.  Same with Polanco - he’s been a success. But Ryan (just got him) Ober (let’s see)  Dobnak (love him, but please) are hardly good examples. Duran has potential, but it’s still early. There are really very few examples of long term ongoing development of true starters under Rocco.  Mixed at best.

How about the other questions?  I’m sincerely interested in an objective review of Rocco’s performance. 

I addressed the two questions in his working with young players and the side effect that younger players will make more fundamental mistakes. Based on that skill I would want Baldelli to lead the club in 2023. Others may give more weight to other aspects/questions but I will leave that for them to respond. Seems like my response had little impact your thoughts so maybe you have already developed answers to your questions or at least that one.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Talent is often more difficult to acquire than front office/manager types. Do we accept that the Twins will just have less talent and that the manager cannot be expected to make lemonade? I'm not sure where the Twins go with your thoughts. I can agree on talent and the relative worth of a manager. But, what can be done to escape mediocrity? 

What does stand out from the current era of Twins baseball is a stubborn refusal to play fundamental baseball. When the same mistakes are made multiple times per game all season long, this reflects on management. The Plan is a disaster. Not only has this exposed the bullpen and led to any number of defeats, it is a real sore point with a starting pitcher who actually has good stuff in inning five.

What to do? I don't know but running back the same ideas will result in more losses next year than this year because without Correa or some major changes in personal the Twins will field a far less talented team in 2023.

Why would we accept having less talent, and who has suggested that anyone accept that? Yes, gathering together the most talented group of baseball players in the league is the most difficult thing to do, but what does that have to do with Rocco and his job performance? If you accept that managers can't make bad baseball players win games against good baseball players why are you mad at Rocco if you also accept that he was handed bad baseball players? 

The only thing that can be done to escape mediocrity is to get better than mediocre baseball players. 

See, this is where I have to push back on "modern era" Twins talk. There is a link between talent and fundamentals. You can't be good at the fundamentals if you aren't talented. You and I couldn't go out there and perform any of the fundamentals you want, because you and I aren't talented enough. Now some of their bad fundamentals are just stupid plays, and that's hard to judge when it comes to a manager's role. There's only so much a manager can do when it comes to a player's mental capacity to "slow the game down" and make the right plays under stress. It's why players like Jeter are so famous for it. Now has Rocco maximized the fundamental abilities of his players? Maybe, maybe not, but it's hard to say. 

"The Plan" was new this year. They hadn't pulled successful pitchers so stubbornly earlier in starts prior to this season. And I don't know why they decided to stick to that basically all year when it clearly wasn't working. It's why I don't care if they're fired. But fans who suggest this is how Rocco, or this FO, has always done things are revising history. It's simply not true. But there are other examples of things that one could point to and suggest they were too slow to act. Again, that's why I'd be ok with them being replaced.

Yes, if a less talented team is out there next year and they use the same strategies they'd likely lose even more games. But we don't know what the team will look like next year, and they've also showed an ability to try new ideas from season to season (like implementing this new, terrible pitching strategy this year) which is why I'm not totally pissed that they'll be back for another year.

If I were the owner I think I'd find a new leadership team, but I also get why the Pohlads aren't. If they come into next season without a better team on paper than this year I'd fire them then since they're going to have lots of money to spend with some pretty solid, cheap young pieces in place already. If they start the season pulling this 5 inning start backed by 4 one inning relievers every game crap I'd fire them then. But the simple, but incredibly hard to execute, answer to the "what to do" question is get better players.

The Twins were a team most everyone thought was talented enough to win 78-84 games this year. They were on pace to do that or slightly better and then the injury wheels fell completely off and the season totally fell apart. I get that they started hot, and that was exciting, but I don't think anyone realistically thought they were suddenly talented enough to win 100 games. I think most people thought they were playing over their talent level at the start and expected regression. They got it and the team was likely to end where we all expected them to record wise. The stubborn adherence to the pitching plan was frustrating as all get out to watch as we got late into the year, but this narrative that Rocco cost the team dozens of wins or whatever doesn't track. Either we were all wrong on how talented they were or it just wasn't that much of his fault.

[MABB1959]

On 9/24/2022 at 9:48 AM, tony&rodney said:

Spring Training was shortened in 2022 due to the lockout. Next February we should expect to see a total emphasis on fundamentals in the Twins camp. Knowing where to throw the ball makes a difference. Hitting the cutoff makes a difference. Tagging up to score makes a difference. Running into outs where you are out by 20 feet makes a difference. Backing up on every play makes a difference. Moving a runner over makes a difference. There are a dozen more but you get the idea. Correa has been coaching players during the game more than we should ever see at the major league level. The 2022 Twins might have been the worst fundamentally run team in Twins history. It is one thing to have very little talent and another to lack fundamentals. Many Twins teams have lacked talent and had low payrolls. There is fair talent and the support via payroll has never been higher. Just one example as a comparison sticks out to me. Recently, Josh Naylor went first to third on a line drive to centerfield a few minutes after Celestino pulled up at second base on a blooper to right field. Fundamental baseball still  works.

It was shortened for all teams.  IMO, these are major league ball player who should know the fundamentals, right?  The problem seems to be we do not have many qualified MLB players!

[SanoMustGo]

Well, let's give him one more year, and hope like hell he has better tools to work with.  Then it's up to him to not **** it up.  He's got nothing to work with now.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, LastOnePicked said:

Ah, got it. So Pagan forced himself into the closer role for five consecutive blown saves against Cleveland. Perhaps through force or threat of force? Extortion? Now things are clearer. I apologize for my earlier hasty judgement.

C'mon, even Gleeman and the Geek seem comfortable admitting that Rocco's had a terrible year in terms of decision-making. I'm fine to have it be an "and the players" sort of thing, but the buck has to stop somewhere, doesn't it? I mean, this team has quit in September. Not just lost - quit. That's a real problem.

If you think any player quit, name them. Because anyone that quit should be off the team way more than the manager. 

[Nine of twelve]

4 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if 2023 brings 100 losses

If you are setting 99.5 losses as the over/under I'll put big money on the under.

[Nine of twelve]

2 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

There are really very few examples of long term ongoing development of true starters under Rocco.  Mixed at best.

 

Rocco does not develop starters. Nor does any other major league manager. That is not in the job description of a major league manager. That is the job of the minor league player development staff.

[Blyleven2011]

On 9/24/2022 at 5:21 PM, Mark G said:

I understand your take as well,  Scouts have been taking and keeping notes on opposing teams and players and keeping them in notebooks since the 1800's.  They would go over the pitcher that day and the opposing lineup before coming out on the field for warmups, and keep reminding themselves throughout the game, especially as relief pitchers or substitutes in the lineup came in.  Today we put those notes into a computer and spit out spread sheets we call analytics.  The difference is, in this extremely humble observer's opinion, that teams are more wedded to the plan going in, and less willing to change the plan as the game progresses.  There was much more of an eye test back in the day to compliment the plan going in than we might see today.  In game and, for that matter, in series adjustments to the plan are what this EHO sees lacking and sorely needed.  I, and others, question Rocco's willingness and/or ability to adjust game by game, inning by inning, at bat by at bat, and even pitch by pitch.  Someone more able and/or willing to do so would make a difference in this humble observer's opinion.  

Amen to that ,..

I commend you on speaking up for all of us ....

[rwilfong86]

33 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

If you are setting 99.5 losses as the over/under I'll put big money on the under.

You just do that. ?

[Mike Sixel]

29 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

Rocco does not develop starters. Nor does any other major league manager. That is not in the job description of a major league manager. That is the job of the minor league player development staff.

Even if it was his job.... Which good pitcher has he been given to develop? 

[Blyleven2011]

24 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

Rocco does not develop starters. Nor does any other major league manager. That is not in the job description of a major league manager. That is the job of the minor league player development staff.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree  on your take ....

A managers job is to take that talent and tap into that talent to make him a better player  ,  or maybe our coaches are responsible  , lord knows we have 3 times more coaches than we did when  Kelly,  gardenhire and molitor as manager ...

Those managers were teachers and took talent and made them a better talent   , you can't learn it all in the minors ....

[Nashvilletwin]

1 hour ago, jorgenswest said:

I addressed the two questions in his working with young players and the side effect that younger players will make more fundamental mistakes. Based on that skill I would want Baldelli to lead the club in 2023. Others may give more weight to other aspects/questions but I will leave that for them to respond. Seems like my response had little impact your thoughts so maybe you have already developed answers to your questions or at least that one.

Thank you for your response.

You are correct - my view on the ongoing development of players is a that it’s been a mixed bag at best - some successes, some failures, and some tbd. But is that really good enough for a team like the Twins? Re the fundamentals, yes, my view is that the Twins have consistently played poor fundamental baseball under Rocco and that goes to the heart of the coaching staff’s responsibilities. That cannot solely be blamed on youth. In fact, since as a mid market team we are much more likely to have a youngish team, it means strong fundamentals are even that much more important. 

Re the other questions, I just genuinely want to hear how others on this site would review Rocco’s performance re the criteria I listed. I do believe Rocco has underperformed in these areas and would like to hear from his defenders why that isn’t the case. Moreover, perhaps others have different criteria (such as W-L over the past couple of seasons or playoff games won), but the criteria I listed IMHO most certainly should be expected to be highly correlated with the team’s results. Do well in this those and the Ws will follow.

There are Rocco defenders and I respect their point of view. But there just isn’t much actual discussion about his performance vis-a-vis specific job responsibilities and objectives.

No matter.  I can’t wait until next year. Go Twins!

[Nashvilletwin]

41 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

Rocco does not develop starters. Nor does any other major league manager. That is not in the job description of a major league manager. That is the job of the minor league player development staff.

The word “starter” was badly chosen as some might think it only applies to pitchers. In my case I was using it more broadly to refer to everyday players - position or on the bump. I disagree that the manager and his staff do not have responsibility for taking players they get and developing them to their full potential. IMHO it’s one of the most important things a coaching staff can do, especially for a mid market team that cannot jus buy proven talent. 

[Mike Sixel]

20 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I'm sorry but I have to disagree  on your take ....

A managers job is to take that talent and tap into that talent to make him a better player  ,  or maybe our coaches are responsible  , lord knows we have 3 times more coaches than we did when  Kelly,  gardenhire and molitor as manager ...

Those managers were teachers and took talent and made them a better talent   , you can't learn it all in the minors ....

 

[LastOnePicked]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

If you think any player quit, name them. Because anyone that quit should be off the team way more than the manager. 

By quitting, I'm referring to lack of fight, lack of plate discipline and field awareness, overall underperformance. That's fits nearly everyone but Correa at this point. 2-9 since the critical "showdown in Cleveland" series began. 1-5 most recently against two terrible teams. If that's not waving a white flag, I don't know what is. And no player can do this on their own - the manager sets the tone.

 

[tony&rodney]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Why would we accept having less talent, and who has suggested that anyone accept that? Yes, gathering together the most talented group of baseball players in the league is the most difficult thing to do, but what does that have to do with Rocco and his job performance? If you accept that managers can't make bad baseball players win games against good baseball players why are you mad at Rocco if you also accept that he was handed bad baseball players? 

The only thing that can be done to escape mediocrity is to get better than mediocre baseball players. 

See, this is where I have to push back on "modern era" Twins talk. There is a link between talent and fundamentals. You can't be good at the fundamentals if you aren't talented. You and I couldn't go out there and perform any of the fundamentals you want, because you and I aren't talented enough. Now some of their bad fundamentals are just stupid plays, and that's hard to judge when it comes to a manager's role. There's only so much a manager can do when it comes to a player's mental capacity to "slow the game down" and make the right plays under stress. It's why players like Jeter are so famous for it. Now has Rocco maximized the fundamental abilities of his players? Maybe, maybe not, but it's hard to say. 

"The Plan" was new this year. They hadn't pulled successful pitchers so stubbornly earlier in starts prior to this season. And I don't know why they decided to stick to that basically all year when it clearly wasn't working. It's why I don't care if they're fired. But fans who suggest this is how Rocco, or this FO, has always done things are revising history. It's simply not true. But there are other examples of things that one could point to and suggest they were too slow to act. Again, that's why I'd be ok with them being replaced.

Yes, if a less talented team is out there next year and they use the same strategies they'd likely lose even more games. But we don't know what the team will look like next year, and they've also showed an ability to try new ideas from season to season (like implementing this new, terrible pitching strategy this year) which is why I'm not totally pissed that they'll be back for another year.

If I were the owner I think I'd find a new leadership team, but I also get why the Pohlads aren't. If they come into next season without a better team on paper than this year I'd fire them then since they're going to have lots of money to spend with some pretty solid, cheap young pieces in place already. If they start the season pulling this 5 inning start backed by 4 one inning relievers every game crap I'd fire them then. But the simple, but incredibly hard to execute, answer to the "what to do" question is get better players.

The Twins were a team most everyone thought was talented enough to win 78-84 games this year. They were on pace to do that or slightly better and then the injury wheels fell completely off and the season totally fell apart. I get that they started hot, and that was exciting, but I don't think anyone realistically thought they were suddenly talented enough to win 100 games. I think most people thought they were playing over their talent level at the start and expected regression. They got it and the team was likely to end where we all expected them to record wise. The stubborn adherence to the pitching plan was frustrating as all get out to watch as we got late into the year, but this narrative that Rocco cost the team dozens of wins or whatever doesn't track. Either we were all wrong on how talented they were or it just wasn't that much of his fault.

I'm not sure why you chose to write your ideas again and quote. I think we are mostly in agreement. The post is related to thoughts on Rocco. This year the Twins were terrible from late May until now in how they played the game. This was not just related to the absence of players due to injuries as many of those players were active through July.  The Plan was new this year but it was pretty ridiculous to never adjust and it is still in use as of today. Attention to detail and an unwillingness to reflect is on management. Correa is their best player by far and I only suggested that the Twins are in a bit of trouble going into next year unless there are changes. I'm fine with Baldelli if there is change in how the game is played and what players we run out to the field. Personally I thought the Twins would win the AL Central this year with 85 wins. My window was 78-88 victories. I'm still watching the games, virtually every inning, due to my baseball sickness. Things can always change but I was discouraged by how lifeless the team looked too often this summer, particularly guys I really like such as Polanco and Kepler. It feels a little like a time to rebuild, but time will reveal the next steps.

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

 

Did you say something here that didn't show up?

[Longdistancetwins]

On 9/24/2022 at 11:05 PM, Longdistancetwins said:

Sigh.  I think he’s my least favorite manager since Ray Miller (for different reasons, of course).  

Actually, this understates my view:  I should have said “he’s my least favorite manager [all time] behind Ray Miller.”

[KirbyDome89]

7 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

 They didn't quit, they just aren't good enough, imo.

Even with the lineups they're tossing out, there's no excuse for getting swept by a Royals team that has been dog water all season. Then you drop 2 of 3 to a terrible Angels team. I can't point to a single player and say definitively that they quit, but as a collective, yeah, I'm pretty comfortable saying this team threw in the towel. 

[KirbyDome89]

10 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

At the end of the day we don’t make the call so people are going to side with whatever decision is made. There’s been a lot of revisionist history being written on this site lately. The biggest culprit being Royce Lewis was projected to be a major impact player this year. 

I don’t know if deferring back to FanGraphs projections in March is some sort of defense mechanism to make people feel better that the Twins are living up to an 82 win season? And casually ignoring that they were a 10 game over .500 team in late May, leading the division until a few weeks ago. 

This. The division was also an absolute dumpster fire after the Sox decided to be a clown show, and the Twins have played like a 90+ loss team for the last 4 months but let's set that aside the last 150 games and focus on preseason projections in September....

[Number3]

Fine; go into 2023 with no major changes from 2022. Just don't pretend to be anything biu a team that HOPES to stay around the .500 mark and has no serious interest in anything to do with playoffs never mind success in the playoffs. Thanks to Correa, there will be no major player acquisitions. As far as thread title is concerned, Baldelli should be fired solely on the way they have closed out this season. Just show up and play. Winning or losing makes no difference. That is all on the manager. Baldelli does seem to rely totally on the analytic numbers and is comfortable that as long as he does that winning or losing makes no difference. Next year should be interesting with the radical shifts eliminated. At least fire the entire analytics staff since they are really to blame for feeding Baldelli the wrong information.

[nicksaviking]

14 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I'm sorry but I have to disagree  on your take ....

A managers job is to take that talent and tap into that talent to make him a better player  ,  or maybe our coaches are responsible  , lord knows we have 3 times more coaches than we did when  Kelly,  gardenhire and molitor as manager ...

Those managers were teachers and took talent and made them a better talent   , you can't learn it all in the minors ....

I think you're mixing up managers and coaches. What possible background does former centerfielder Rocco Baldelli have that would give him insight into the intricacies of pitching mechanics?