Lopez is a hot mess...is Rocco's job secure?

[TwinsDr2021]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

To be clear, you expect the Twins to be as good as the team that is best at developing pitchers? I expect you'll be disappointed. 

Which pitcher is being held back? 

To be clear I said 1 pitcher like that, just 1 not a whole rotation, just 1. Isn't that why they were hired? Are you OK with them being here since they drafted Royce Lewis 1st overall in 2017. The best they have done is Ober and his 28 starts averaging under 5 innings a start. (not discounting Jax and Duran but they aren't starting)

I would say all of them, I have read on here that every pitcher is being held back because of injuries or innings limits. Are you saying that isn't true? (not saying they are invalid reasons for this) I have heard that for Varland, Ryan, Winder, Ober, Duran, SWR

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

To be clear I said 1 pitcher like that, just 1 not a whole rotation, just 1. Isn't that why they were hired? Are you OK with them being here since they drafted Royce Lewis 1st overall in 2017. The best they have done is Ober and his 28 starts averaging under 5 innings a start. (not discounting Jax and Duran but they aren't starting)

I would say all of them, I have read on here that every pitcher is being held back because of injuries or innings limits. Are you saying that isn't true? (not saying they are invalid reasons for this) I have heard that for Varland, Ryan, Winder, Ober, Duran, SWR

Varland just went from AA to the majors. Ryan? He's going to pitch the most he ever has, and put up good numbers. Winder? Injured. Ober? injured. Duran? Highest WPA on the MLB team by far and possibly their best rookie. SWR? He's in AAA at 23 (or 22, not sure how old he is) and didn't pitch well at all last year. I have no idea how one of those is an example of being held back.

[TwinsDr2021]

14 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Varland just went from AA to the majors. Ryan? He's going to pitch the most he ever has, and put up good numbers. Winder? Injured. Ober? injured. Duran? Highest WPA on the MLB team by far and possibly their best rookie. SWR? He's in AAA at 23 (or 22, not sure how old he is) and didn't pitch well at all last year. I have no idea how one of those is an example of being held back.

I don't mean being held back from promotions, and I said "not saying they are invalid reasons"

Maybe a better word would have been limited, and again this FO has been here since they drafted Royce Lewis first overall in 2017 and every pitcher they have drafted or brought in for more than a minute have been limited.

An by your comments your are fine with what this front office has done.

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I don't mean being held back from promotions, and I said "not saying they are invalid reasons"

Maybe a better word would have been limited, and again this FO has been here since they drafted Royce Lewis first overall in 2017 and every pitcher they have drafted or brought in for more than a minute have been limited.

An by your comments your are fine with what this front office has done.

Where did I say I was fine with every decision? I'm disappointed they don't have a better pitcher from the system. But I also don't think some people here are realistic at all. 

[Reptevia]

Rocco will be back. I think a lot of strategy is coming from on high. I think they have a big enough sample size on the pitching strategy experiment to change course somewhat. They are reputed to be bright guys. 

[tony&rodney]

To repeat again ....

The Plan is a fail. The utter lack of fundamentals and refusal to use the broad strategies available in baseball is death. The Twins cannot and will not be successful with their current philosophies. The front office/management team is capable of reflection and change (I think). I believe it is fair for anyone associated with the Twins to expect changes in how the team is run and how they play. The Twins have a set of diehard fans that will keep attendance between 10-20 K per game, but this should be an issue for the owners, the Pohlad family. 

It is fair to compare the Cleveland and Minnesota franchises. Cleveland fans may not think so because they field teams with about half of the financial resources of their AL Central rival. Going from the starting pitchers to relievers to positions players to reserves and all of the way down through the minor leagues, there may only be two Twins picked in an open draft. While it isn't mandatory to clean house, the Twins absolutely need to reflect on their practices and make some changes to their product. I watch the Twins  (since 1961) - they are pretty boring. Cleveland is completely the opposite. We have seen that all year and the game between in Chicago last night was just one more example.

All I want is the return of baseball in the Twins game.

[Battle ur tail off]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

To repeat again ....

The Plan is a fail. The utter lack of fundamentals and refusal to use the broad strategies available in baseball is death. The Twins cannot and will not be successful with their current philosophies. The front office/management team is capable of reflection and change (I think). I believe it is fair for anyone associated with the Twins to expect changes in how the team is run and how they play. The Twins have a set of diehard fans that will keep attendance between 10-20 K per game, but this should be an issue for the owners, the Pohlad family. 

It is fair to compare the Cleveland and Minnesota franchises. Cleveland fans may not think so because they field teams with about half of the financial resources of their AL Central rival. Going from the starting pitchers to relievers to positions players to reserves and all of the way down through the minor leagues, there may only be two Twins picked in an open draft. While it isn't mandatory to clean house, the Twins absolutely need to reflect on their practices and make some changes to their product. I watch the Twins  (since 1961) - they are pretty boring. Cleveland is completely the opposite. We have seen that all year and the game between in Chicago last night was just one more example.

All I want is the return of baseball in the Twins game.

I'm with you. I am all in with analytics being a part, and even a large one on how they approach the game and season overall. 

But I think we saw that this year, the game is played on a field, with players, that are humans, not on a computer screen where we can predict results based on calculations. 

I think it starts with fundamentals being taught(stressed!) again throughout the entire system. Accepting no less than your very best effort on every play. Doing things the right way, LEARNING every game. 

I think it ends with management (FO and manager), realizing that there are no hard and fast rules in this game. You still have to use your EYES to a certain extent on a game by game basis. That means running once in a while if it looks like it's available, letting your pitcher go out there for a 6th or 7th inning if they are dealing. Not giving chance after chance to a bullpen guy that clearly is slumping. 

Yes, overall, use the numbers to give yourselves the best chance as it pertains to a full season. BUT, each individual game is different and to be SO RIGID with your decisions, gives you exactly the type of year we saw this season.

Oh and find a way to keep guys healthy. If this means a different training, nutrition, strength regimen or flat out not bringing in so many guys with injury histories, whatever, this has to change as well.

[specialiststeve]

Rocco has dealt with a ton of injuries and that has not helped the situation... 

That said... his complete misuse of the bullpen and lack of understanding "when" to make a pitching change, a GLARING lack of fundamentals, terrible situational hitting, the worse in the league baserunning and basically a lack of disconnect to "winning baseball" ... his days should be numbered. 

Can't stand the disconnect to "real" baseball knowledge and the "metric way". Metrics are a nice tool but is not the end all with making baseball decisions. He clearly does not understand that as evidenced by his ongoing and continual choices. Argh!

[Bob Twins Fan Since 61]

Add me to the group that it is time to move on from Rocco.  He isn't totally to blame but I would prefer to move on to someone else.  One potential replacement that has piqued my interest is Joe Espada, the current Houston Astros bench coach.  His resume is very impressive.  It is much more impressive than Rocco's was for a 1st time big league manager.  Yet he is only 48 years old.  He is Puerto Rican and manager of the Puerto Rican national baseball team for the World Baseball Classic.  Which could have an impact on Correa returning and attracting Puerto Rican free agents in the future.  I would want him to have final say on the hiring of his staff.  Which my observation is Rocco did not have.  Some of the recent hires have been questionable.  One example would be the young hitting coach hired for this season.  Expecting him to jump from low A to a big-league coach?  Espada is most likely going to have multiple teams interested in him.  I see him has a big upgrade from Rocco.  Would feel lot better making the change from Rocco to Espada for  2023.

[Obsvr]

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about how this organization is built and operates.  The Pohlad's look at this franchise as just one aspect of their many holdings.  Of course they want to win championships, but championships aren't the goal.  Increasing the teams long term value is the only goal.

The value of an MLB franchise will continue to grow, year over year no matter the product on the field.  That said, if the product on the field is decent and the team is in contention for much of the year, year in and year out, then the goal is not only being met, but is being accelerated with additional ticket sales/revenue.  Whether you like Falvine and Rocco doesn't really matter.  The Pohlads have shown tremendous patience within the organization with regards to front office personel and there is zero chance the front office is on any kind of hot seat.  Not this year, not next year and probably not the year after that.  

Analytics have taken over the game and modern managers are managing the game and lineups for statistical probabilities.  You can complain about Rocco all you want, but he's just doing what the numbers are telling him to do.  The only way he gets fired is if he goes against those orders...which is highly unlikely.  

[LA VIkes Fan]

On 9/20/2022 at 10:28 AM, Battle ur tail off said:

1 starter, 1 bullpen player each year. Every 2-3 years, one of those starters needs to be something more than a #5 type guy. 

I honestly don't think they have done a terrible job since getting here developing pitchers. What they haven't done though, is develop anything or have anything in the pipeline even that projects as top of the rotation. This will continue to be the main thing that holds this franchise back from being a real contender. 

 

 

Agree with this. They are pretty good at finding and/or developing #3-#5 starters - Ryan and Ober to start, with Varland and Winder as tantalizing possibilities. Still, none of those guys is a #1 starter and I don't see a #2 in the group unless Ryan takes one more full step up and/or Winder's shoulder completely heals. Hard to see anyone in the Minors that fits the #1 type bill. SWR and  Raya potential MLB starters at the #2-#4 levels? I think so but probably less than #1 or #2 type guys. Festa, Sands, Balazovic, and Henriquez probably the same or even farther back. 

This is a real problem. We can't afford #1 and #2 guys as Free Agents so we have to develop them and we just aren't doing that. Really need to focus on the drafting, scouting and pitching development side in the off season. I don't know what changes are necessary but it seems pretty clear that some are.