Lopez is a hot mess...is Rocco's job secure?

[Emjay]

For a guy who suddenly can't pitch, he sure chirps at the ump and gets into it with the opposing team a lot. That kind of mouth running  is better left to players who

can back it up with good pitching...ironically, the best pitchers don't feel the need to act like that.  

By the way, did anyone laugh out loud like I did when Celestino stole 2nd base today??? I mean the guy or any of our players,  havn't tried to steal a base all year when it mattered, but now that we are out of contention, he steals?? wtf? 

I know a lot about the game, but the back office stuff I'm not as clear on...is there any possible way they will fire Rocco? Or will he survive because of all the injuries we had?

Is that

an excuse for him? How much accountability is there on the coaching staff and managers for the constant hamstring and groin (and other avoidable) inujuries that helped knock us out of contention?  #RoccoMustGo 

 

 

[tony&rodney]

3 hours ago, Emjay said:

.is there any possible way they will fire Rocco? Or will he survive because of all the injuries we had?

Falvey, Levine, Rocco are a package deal. One stays, they all stay or one goes, they all go. They are human, have talents, and are capable of reflection and change .... I think.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Making that pitching change today, pulling the closer the front office traded for at the deadline, to put in your Triple A second baseman to pitch, in the middle of the inning.

That is a cry for help. “Please fire me.” I have a life to live.”

The question now is how badly Rocco wants out and what lengths Rocco will go to!

(ok mostly joking..,  i think)

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Hosken Bombo Disco
Reason for edit: changed Palacios’s AAA position from SS to 2B

[tony&rodney]

14 person pitching staff and using a position player is bush league. I wish this was banned. Either that or reduce pitching staffs to 10-12 pitchers.

[gunnarthor]

If they finish below .500, Rocco is gone.

[SwainZag]

3 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

If they finish below .500, Rocco is gone.

Just curious why that would be the mark?  They are going to miss the playoffs, they have had injuries galore.  What's the difference if they finish 2 games under or 2 games over .500 at this point?  

[solomon1930]

My guess is that he is safe for 2023.

[jimbo92107]

Lopez was right about the pitch that set him off, but still, a pitcher's life is full of minor injustices, at least until Robo Ump takes away the human error factor. A closer cannot afford to let anybody see that he's getting ruffled. 

For Lopez, coaching is not what's needed. He needs a sports psychologist. I say this will all due respect and good intentions. 

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, SwainZag said:

Just curious why that would be the mark?  They are going to miss the playoffs, they have had injuries galore.  What's the difference if they finish 2 games under or 2 games over .500 at this point?  

Optics. The team collapsed after a total system failure last year. Someone takes the fall for that.

[Mark G]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

Optics. The team collapsed after a total system failure last year. Someone takes the fall for that.

I wish I could believe that, but for that to be true they would have to actually care what we think.  And I wish I could believe that.

[rwilfong86]

6 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

If they finish below .500, Rocco is gone.

Let's hope so. The Rocco experiment is a failure.

[rwilfong86]

6 hours ago, jimbo92107 said:

Lopez was right about the pitch that set him off, but still, a pitcher's life is full of minor injustices, at least until Robo Ump takes away the human error factor. A closer cannot afford to let anybody see that he's getting ruffled. 

For Lopez, coaching is not what's needed. He needs a sports psychologist. I say this will all due respect and good intentions. 

Lopez has a lot going on off the field which is why I think he is struggling so much. 

[CRF]

As much as I'd like to see them clean house...it just ain't gonna happen. I'll bet they all return. Whomever would be making the decision would screw up the hire(s) anyway, just like always. I'm convinced that Baldelli has no place being a major league manager, and the dueling GM's otherwise known as Falvine, don't seem to get much of anything right no matter what they try to do. Being a Twins fan/fanatic is damn depressing right now. Ownership has to be held responsible for this as well. I don't know that they're willing to do what it takes to put a winning team in place here. As long as the team makes money, they're happy. 

[TopGunn#22]

Lopez is a good pitcher and he will bounce back, but yes, boy is he ever a hot mess right now.  Even with all the injuries, I'm kind of just done with Rocco.  But I think he will be back.  I think the FO will also be back, but how long should their leash be for 2023? Expectations were reasonably higher this year. 

They DO have some exciting young talent emerging.  They may need an entirely new set of trainers, medical staff, whatever, because they just can't keep ANYBODY healthy.  How many consecutive years have we seen our minor league pipeline of pitchers decimated ?!?  Everyone has injuries.  The Twins seem to be in a category all by themselves.  

[Squirrel]

7 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Optics. The team collapsed after a total system failure last year. Someone takes the fall for that.

I agree that managers are the best scapegoats in these situations. For all the optics in the world, though, a new manager isn't going to change anything except to build our expectations to nothing. What I want to see this off-season, though, is a commitment to a different plan in player/pitcher usage, or at least an admission that they are rethinking, and a real commitment to building a GREAT BP. If that doesn't happen, I think all three need to go. But, I'm not in charge of these things (which is a good thing).

[Unwinder]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

Falvey, Levine, Rocco are a package deal. One stays, they all stay or one goes, they all go. They are human, have talents, and are capable of reflection and change .... I think.

Yeah, I wouldn't say that I'm enamored of the front office right now, but also I think it's weird that everybody assumes that if they stay on, they're just going to do all the exact same stuff all over again. Maybe there's someone else out there who's better for the job, but even in the most menial jobs I've had, the dumbest employees have had some ability to adapt to failure.

[Number3]

Being MOY is never good for a Twins manager. As far as Lopez is concerned, anyone who took the time to watch him for the Orioles before trading for him would have seen that he is no closer and whatever they gave up to get him was probably not worth it.

[Mark G]

1 hour ago, Unwinder said:

Yeah, I wouldn't say that I'm enamored of the front office right now, but also I think it's weird that everybody assumes that if they stay on, they're just going to do all the exact same stuff all over again. Maybe there's someone else out there who's better for the job, but even in the most menial jobs I've had, the dumbest employees have had some ability to adapt to failure.

True, but only if said employees recognized it as failure.  I don't believe these 3 recognize it as that.  The plan didn't fail, the ability to execute it did.  The lock out, injuries, etc. derailed the plan enough for it to not succeed as planned, but the plan was fine.  If they thought something on their end was failing, they would have adapted already.  

[Rosterman]

The pitching pipeline.

In 2019, the only pitchers that played in the majors that are still with the Twins are rookies Devin Smeltzer, Randy Dobnak and Cody Stashak, at the time. Tyler Duffey was the main holdover with major league experience.

Twins prospects that premiered were: Brusdar Graterol, Sean Poppen, Ryan Eades, Lewis Thorpe.

Free agents that came and gone were Martin Perez, Blake Parker, Carlos Torres, and the Twins traded for Sergio Romo and Sam Dyson. Jorge Alcala was added via a trade.

In 2020 the Twins elevated prospect Edwar Colina. That's it. They added thru free agency or trades: Danny Coulombe, Juan Minaya, Tyler Clippard, Matt Wisler, Cody Gearin, Kenta Maeda, Homer Bailey. Whew.

In 2021, the Twins added thru free agency or trades: Matt Shoemaker, J.A. Happ, Joe Ryan, Hansel Robles, Luke Farrell, Derek Law, Shaun Anderson, Alex Colome, Brandon Waddell, Ian Gibaut, Nick Vincent, Edgar Garcia, Ralph Garza Jr. Kyle Barraclough, John Gant, Beau Burrows. Quite a few names we never ever want to see again.

But from the system they promoted: Bailey Ober, Griffin Jax, Charlie Barnes, Jovani Moran. That's it. Do we miss having lefty Charlie Barnes who went across the ocean to pitch instead?

2022, this season, Twins added via free agency or trade: Chris Paddack, Dylan Bundy, Chris Archer, Sonny Gray, Tyler Mahle, Chi Chi Gonzalez, Aaron Sanchez, Derek Rodriguez, Jharel Cotton, Joe Smith, Ian Hamilton, Tyler Thornburg, Jorge Lopez, Jhon Romero, Emilo Pagan, Trevor Megill, Austin Davis, Michael Fulmer, Ronny Henriquez.

Prospects given a chance: Yennier Cano, Jhoan Duran, Cole Sands, Josh Winder, Louie Varland.

I;m waiting for the pipeline of prospects to materialize. Lot of visits to the "Dollar Store."

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Rosterman said:

The pitching pipeline.

In 2019, the only pitchers that played in the majors that are still with the Twins are rookies Devin Smeltzer, Randy Dobnak and Cody Stashak, at the time. Tyler Duffey was the main holdover with major league experience.

Twins prospects that premiered were: Brusdar Graterol, Sean Poppen, Ryan Eades, Lewis Thorpe.

Free agents that came and gone were Martin Perez, Blake Parker, Carlos Torres, and the Twins traded for Sergio Romo and Sam Dyson. Jorge Alcala was added via a trade.

In 2020 the Twins elevated prospect Edwar Colina. That's it. They added thru free agency or trades: Danny Coulombe, Juan Minaya, Tyler Clippard, Matt Wisler, Cody Gearin, Kenta Maeda, Homer Bailey. Whew.

In 2021, the Twins added thru free agency or trades: Matt Shoemaker, J.A. Happ, Joe Ryan, Hansel Robles, Luke Farrell, Derek Law, Shaun Anderson, Alex Colome, Brandon Waddell, Ian Gibaut, Nick Vincent, Edgar Garcia, Ralph Garza Jr. Kyle Barraclough, John Gant, Beau Burrows. Quite a few names we never ever want to see again.

But from the system they promoted: Bailey Ober, Griffin Jax, Charlie Barnes, Jovani Moran. That's it. Do we miss having lefty Charlie Barnes who went across the ocean to pitch instead?

2022, this season, Twins added via free agency or trade: Chris Paddack, Dylan Bundy, Chris Archer, Sonny Gray, Tyler Mahle, Chi Chi Gonzalez, Aaron Sanchez, Derek Rodriguez, Jharel Cotton, Joe Smith, Ian Hamilton, Tyler Thornburg, Jorge Lopez, Jhon Romero, Emilo Pagan, Trevor Megill, Austin Davis, Michael Fulmer, Ronny Henriquez.

Prospects given a chance: Yennier Cano, Jhoan Duran, Cole Sands, Josh Winder, Louie Varland.

I;m waiting for the pipeline of prospects to materialize. Lot of visits to the "Dollar Store."

How many pitchers do you expect to emerge every year? Certainly no one from this draft class, or the last. Any pitchers emerging the first two years had to come from the previous regime, right? I'm not sure what people expect realistically.

[ashbury]

7 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'm not sure what people expect realistically.

Wins.

[Mark G]

12 minutes ago, Rosterman said:

The pitching pipeline.

In 2019, the only pitchers that played in the majors that are still with the Twins are rookies Devin Smeltzer, Randy Dobnak and Cody Stashak, at the time. Tyler Duffey was the main holdover with major league experience.

Twins prospects that premiered were: Brusdar Graterol, Sean Poppen, Ryan Eades, Lewis Thorpe.

Free agents that came and gone were Martin Perez, Blake Parker, Carlos Torres, and the Twins traded for Sergio Romo and Sam Dyson. Jorge Alcala was added via a trade.

In 2020 the Twins elevated prospect Edwar Colina. That's it. They added thru free agency or trades: Danny Coulombe, Juan Minaya, Tyler Clippard, Matt Wisler, Cody Gearin, Kenta Maeda, Homer Bailey. Whew.

In 2021, the Twins added thru free agency or trades: Matt Shoemaker, J.A. Happ, Joe Ryan, Hansel Robles, Luke Farrell, Derek Law, Shaun Anderson, Alex Colome, Brandon Waddell, Ian Gibaut, Nick Vincent, Edgar Garcia, Ralph Garza Jr. Kyle Barraclough, John Gant, Beau Burrows. Quite a few names we never ever want to see again.

But from the system they promoted: Bailey Ober, Griffin Jax, Charlie Barnes, Jovani Moran. That's it. Do we miss having lefty Charlie Barnes who went across the ocean to pitch instead?

2022, this season, Twins added via free agency or trade: Chris Paddack, Dylan Bundy, Chris Archer, Sonny Gray, Tyler Mahle, Chi Chi Gonzalez, Aaron Sanchez, Derek Rodriguez, Jharel Cotton, Joe Smith, Ian Hamilton, Tyler Thornburg, Jorge Lopez, Jhon Romero, Emilo Pagan, Trevor Megill, Austin Davis, Michael Fulmer, Ronny Henriquez.

Prospects given a chance: Yennier Cano, Jhoan Duran, Cole Sands, Josh Winder, Louie Varland.

I;m waiting for the pipeline of prospects to materialize. Lot of visits to the "Dollar Store."

 

whew......thank you!

[Battle ur tail off]

3 hours ago, Unwinder said:

 I think it's weird that everybody assumes that if they stay on, they're just going to do all the exact same stuff all over again. 

They watched it happen for 2/3 of the season, yet this last third, they continued to yank effective starting pitchers in favor of their bullpen. They had their chance, I don't think you will see them change. Had they been open to change, they would have done so and we would still be talking about being in a playoff race. 

Not sure if it is arrogance or what, but they have been rigid in pitching staff usage and it cost them the division this year IMO.

[Battle ur tail off]

19 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

How many pitchers do you expect to emerge every year? Certainly no one from this draft class, or the last. Any pitchers emerging the first two years had to come from the previous regime, right? I'm not sure what people expect realistically.

1 starter, 1 bullpen player each year. Every 2-3 years, one of those starters needs to be something more than a #5 type guy. 

I honestly don't think they have done a terrible job since getting here developing pitchers. What they haven't done though, is develop anything or have anything in the pipeline even that projects as top of the rotation. This will continue to be the main thing that holds this franchise back from being a real contender. 

 

 

[Juncker1]

Why can't today's Players play through injury.  Buxton, Palanco, buck up and play.  80 percent Buxton and Palanco, is better than AAA player.  Make them play, you paid them 10 million a year.  Hard to watch.  

[Juncker1]

Buxton and Palanco need to play,  Buck up and play.  80 percent Buxton and Palanco is better than AAA player.  Pay a guy 10 million a year and DH's and play in 60 percent of the games.  Let them play hurt!!!!!  Hard to Watch!!!

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, Rosterman said:

In 2019, the only pitchers that played in the majors that are still with the Twins are rookies Devin Smeltzer, Randy Dobnak and Cody Stashak, at the time. Tyler Duffey was the main holdover with major league experience.

I think one of the main issues is in 2019 the top prospects were Lewis, Kirilloff, Graterol, Javier, Larnach, Rooker, Duran Thorpe, Enlow, Gordon.

And of those 10, Graterol was turned into Maeda, Gordon and Duran were good this year, and the rest haven't done anything (yet?)

The guys 10 - 25 have turned out better, Baddoo, Mirandd, Celestino, Jeffers, Arraez, Alcala, Littell, Wade, Jax and Rotvedt.

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

How many pitchers do you expect to emerge every year? Certainly no one from this draft class, or the last. Any pitchers emerging the first two years had to come from the previous regime, right? I'm not sure what people expect realistically.

Bieber drafted 4th round in 16, started 18 games in 18 averaged over 5 2/3 innings a start.

Cal Quantrill drafted 1st round in 2016 started 18 games and over 5 innings in 19.

Zach Plesac drafted 12th round in 2016 started 21 games in 2019 averaged over 5.5 innings per start.

Aarom Civale drafted 3rd round 2016 started 10 games in 2019 averaged over 5 2/3 innings per start.

One pitcher like that to go along with guys like Ryan, Gray, Maeda that they have brought in. Then Ober and Winder and all the rest of the pitchers that haven't gotten hurt and are being held back look that much better.

 

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

44 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Bieber drafted 4th round in 16, started 18 games in 18 averaged over 5 2/3 innings a start.

Cal Quantrill drafted 1st round in 2016 started 18 games and over 5 innings in 19.

Zach Plesac drafted 12th round in 2016 started 21 games in 2019 averaged over 5.5 innings per start.

Aarom Civale drafted 3rd round 2016 started 10 games in 2019 averaged over 5 2/3 innings per start.

One pitcher like that to go along with guys like Ryan, Gray, Maeda that they have brought in. Then Ober and Winder and all the rest of the pitchers that haven't gotten hurt and are being held back look that much better.

 

 

 

To be clear, you expect the Twins to be as good as the team that is best at developing pitchers? I expect you'll be disappointed. 

Which pitcher is being held back? 

[KirbyDome89]

6 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

Lopez is a good pitcher and he will bounce back, but yes, boy is he ever a hot mess right now.  Even with all the injuries, I'm kind of just done with Rocco.  But I think he will be back.  I think the FO will also be back, but how long should their leash be for 2023? Expectations were reasonably higher this year. 

They DO have some exciting young talent emerging.  They may need an entirely new set of trainers, medical staff, whatever, because they just can't keep ANYBODY healthy.  How many consecutive years have we seen our minor league pipeline of pitchers decimated ?!?  Everyone has injuries.  The Twins seem to be in a category all by themselves.  

Is he? Will he? Right now he looks exactly like the pitcher Baltimore bounced from their rotation after last year.

The medical staffers aren't miracle workers. If they're being handed broken parts the results are never going to be great.