Is Rocco really middle management

[mikelink45]

I just finished listening to Joe Madden talk with Jason Stark and Doug Glanville and it was terrific.  As a carry over from that discussion I had to think about Rocco.  

As Joe talked about the management styles of past managers - Billy Martin, Earl Weaver, Whitey Herzog, Tommy Lasorda, Casey Stengel,.. they had their own signature that you saw on the teams they managed.  They were not cookie cutter copycats.  They all managed with their players in mind.  They knew what they were capable of and played to that strength.  Some ran, some pitched, some hit long balls.  But the manager had control.

Then analytics came along and provided reams of information - many times too much to be absorbed by a pitcher or hitter or catcher.  It was good stuff, valuable stuff, but as Joe talked he reflected on the way that management took the pregame warm up and inserted an hour long dialogue filled with so much information that the player was in a daze at times.  He talked about how the FO fell in love with this information and decided that they should control the way the manager managed.

For many teams the manager became a middle management guy doing what the analytic guy sitting in the dugout told him to do every step of the way.  He also made the point that team FOs have started to compete for the smartest, most savvy, most information gathering and they lost track of the human aspect of the game.  They have inserted themselves into the clubhouse, into the dugout and into the minds of the players. Rocco has sixteen coaches and the FO lists 31 staff but in the reference that I am using for the remaining comparison he had nine..  You know everyone wants to say something or they might lose their status.  Paul Molitor had 8 coaches.   Ron Gardenhire had seven in 2013 and six in 2012. Tom Kelly had six in 2000 and five in 1999.  Ray Miller and Billy Gardner had four in 1985. Gene Mauch had four in 1980. Frank Quilici had three in 1975 and four in his other years. Bill Rigney had five in 1970.  Billy Martin had five in 1969. Sam Mele had four in 1965. 

So the question is - does Rocco manage or does he follow the script?  Should we complain about Rocco or the person telling him what to do?

For those of you who do not get the Athletic here is the interview from Youtube - 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by mikelink45
Adding interview video

[tony&rodney]

Rocco has been around baseball his entire life and played at the highest level; he knows the game. That said, his experience as a manager and coach are limited as he is still young. Thinking about the numbers of people employed by the Twins and keeping in mind Falvey and Levine gives you your answer. A young Tom Kelly, who worked his way up through the system, and his style would not have been employed and the Twins would not have won in either 1987 or 1991. Maddon is correct when he states that analytics are not new at all, even as he acknowledges that the numbers of people collecting and dispersing information and the reams of statistics have increased by multitudes. He is totally correct when he states that an individual cannot process constant numbers and perform and that being subservient to numbers does not work well within a game. I'm reminded of those scenes played out in youth baseball where a phalanx of voices scream out advice to a batter or pitcher with a dozen plus reminders of what to do on the next pitch. Maddon is also correct when he states that all of the information is wanted but that the guys deliver that to the manager and coaches well before games and that the analytics guys do not belong in the clubhouse or dugout. So you have your answer - Rocco is a middle manager, which must be frustrating for him.

[CRF]

This is only my opinion. To answer your question...Baldelli follows the script. He does exactly what his analytic data sheets tell him to do. I don't think he currently has the ability, or maybe even the authority, to do anything but that. Whether that makes him a "middle manager"...I don't know. As I said...this only my opinion. I don't particularly care for the way the team is managed and the decisions that are made...by whomever is making them. I honestly don't think Baldelli is making them...they're coming from the FO. 

[Mike Sixel]

As a former middle manager, I can assure you he has instructions from above, and freedom to act. There is no such thing as only following a spreadsheet. That's a ridiculous meme with no reality. 

As for judging his decisions? They aren't his alone. There will never be a baseball manager again that acts without the guidance of the front office and others. And that's likely good for making better decisions as a whole. Those won't always work, as no good process can cover for bad decisions or bad luck. 

Judge as you want, but my hope is this site does so intelligently and with some humor and humanity.

[Rosterman]

With the amount of coaches handling specific duties, he is more of the central guy working between the front office and all those paper pushers and the field staff.

 

[gunnarthor]

Yeah, it's Rocco's team, in the sense that he has some freedom from the FO but the FO is certainly instituting plans and working philosophy that he has to follow. I have no idea if the concerns that Madden mentions have happened to our players. I know some pitchers have complained about things here but, at least, JA Happ was a bad pitcher so his complaints didn't matter.

[Mike Sixel]

Maadon was successful in Tampa and Chicago, using evil analytics. He went to LA where they have a bad reputation for how they use data. Now he hates data? I'm thinking this is about LA, and not data. 

[mikelink45]

33 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

As a former middle manager, I can assure you he has instructions from above, and freedom to act. There is no such thing as only following a spreadsheet. That's a ridiculous meme with no reality. 

As for judging his decisions? They aren't his alone. There will never be a baseball manager again that acts without the guidance of the front office and others. And that's likely good for making better decisions as a whole. Those won't always work, as no good process can cover for bad decisions or bad luck. 

Judge as you want, but my hope is this site does so intelligently and with some humor and humanity.

As you would have read in my opening.  This is not a bash Rocco site.  But managing has changed - I wonder how Buck Showalter processes the information and controls the flow to his players.  What are the freedoms that a manager has now?  For me Rocco is a middle manager.  I feel that he has some very set patterns and those are dictated by the input of the FO.  We will never know unless he is unemployed and free to speak like Maddon.  What I enjoyed with Maddon is the fact that in some ways he was the first of the analytic driven new wave manager and thus has followed the evolution of FO into dugout trend. 

[mikelink45]

14 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Maadon was successful in Tampa and Chicago, using evil analytics. He went to LA where they have a bad reputation for how they use data. Now he hates data? I'm thinking this is about LA, and not data. 

I do not agree that he hates analytics.  He stated in the review that he wants the data.  It is the process of data flow from FO to manager to player that he discusses in this excellent interview.

[mikelink45]

18 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Yeah, it's Rocco's team, in the sense that he has some freedom from the FO but the FO is certainly instituting plans and working philosophy that he has to follow. I have no idea if the concerns that Madden mentions have happened to our players. I know some pitchers have complained about things here but, at least, JA Happ was a bad pitcher so his complaints didn't matter.

Sonny Gray's comments should matter since we consider him our ace. 

[Squirrel]

Just now, mikelink45 said:

Sonny Gray's comments should matter since we consider him our ace. 

Sonny Gray has also said how much he likes Rocco as a manager. Sonny Gray is disappointed in not going further into games because of Sonny Gray, not Rocco. 

[mikelink45]

Just now, Squirrel said:

Sonny Gray has also said how much he likes Rocco as a manager. Sonny Gray is disappointed in not going further into games because of Sonny Gray, not Rocco. 

I think Rocco is a really nice guy and I expect most of the players like him - that does not change the basic question.  Is he using his judgment or following the input of the analytic coach and FO on basic decisions.

 

[Squirrel]

Just now, mikelink45 said:

I think Rocco is a really nice guy and I expect most of the players like him - that does not change the basic question.  Is he using his judgment or following the input of the analytic coach and FO on basic decisions.

 

As I said, he has stated a few times he likes him as a manager, not because he’s a good guy

[Mike Sixel]

7 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

I do not agree that he hates analytics.  He stated in the review that he wants the data.  It is the process of data flow from FO to manager to player that he discusses in this excellent interview.

Which he never complained about before LA, which was my point. As for the evil word I used, you might not think that, but the users of this site sure do.

[mikelink45]

16 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Which he never complained about before LA, which was my point. As for the evil word I used, you might not think that, but the users of this site sure do.

It is true that LA is his complaint, but if you listen to the interview he says that is the trend now, now what was done when he was in Tampa or Chicago

[Blyleven2011]

2 hours ago, CRF said:

This is only my opinion. To answer your question...Baldelli follows the script. He does exactly what his analytic data sheets tell him to do. I don't think he currently has the ability, or maybe even the authority, to do anything but that. Whether that makes him a "middle manager"...I don't know. As I said...this only my opinion. I don't particularly care for the way the team is managed and the decisions that are made...by whomever is making them. I honestly don't think Baldelli is making them...they're coming from the FO. 

I have to agree  ....

Managing is coming from top professionals  ( falvey and company ) , what a crock  , I haven't seen much professionalism in twins baseball  that gives me an encouraging sign that we can win beyond the season  , our baseball style of playing is about the worst  ....

No bunting , no stealing , no hit and run , no hitting behind the runners to move him up ,  no protecting the plate with 2 strikes ( to many strikeouts  looking , be in control , don't let umpire determine your fate ) , no situational hitting  , the list goes on and on ....

It's a different game I love ....

[ashbury]

If players are overwhelmed by the volume of information (whether they admit it or not), then that's counterproductive.

I've probably told this one before, but a boss of mine once asked me a question in the course of my work one day answering a customer's inquiry, that I'll never forget: "what would they do with that information, if they had it?"  Stopped me in my tracks. It's affected how I write (tech support, product marketing, birthday party invitations) ever since.

That filter should be applied to anything players are told about analytics, at a minimum.

I might disagree with a lot being said here, but that kernel rings true for me.  No idea whether it pertains to Rocco at all, though.  I would lean toward presuming 'no.'

[Blyleven2011]

53 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

Sonny Gray's comments should matter since we consider him our ace. 

I agree ,  sonny was furious when he was removed from a game early and interviewed after the game , you could see his frustration  , maybe he and Rocco have made amends  or he is just keeping comments in house now .... 

I'm going to make a prediction  that sonny gray  makes a demand  for a trade after the season , It just seems right by the veterans attitude ....

[RedBull34]

26 minutes ago, ashbury said:

If players are overwhelmed by the volume of information (whether they admit it or not), then that's counterproductive.

I've probably told this one before, but a boss of mine once asked me a question in the course of my work one day answering a customer's inquiry, that I'll never forget: "what would they do with that information, if they had it?"  Stopped me in my tracks. It's affected how I write (tech support, product marketing, birthday party invitations) ever since.

That filter should be applied to anything players are told about analytics, at a minimum.

I might disagree with a lot being said here, but that kernel rings true for me.  No idea whether it pertains to Rocco at all, though.  I would lean toward presuming 'no.'

I feel like there is a lot of truth to this statement.  Players probably(especially younger ones) don't care or comprehend if you proceed to talk about four pitchers they expect to see that day and everything they do or could do in every count.

It needs to be simpler, "We expect the starter to throw Inside Fastballs OR a Slider Away to start an AB.  You mash fastballs up and away, so sit on a mistake, don't chase.  If you get behind, don't fall for the slider away."  Point out any noticed pitch-tipping "He throws his slider from a lower arm-slot.  It looks like this when he releases vs. this when he throws fastball."

I could see where the upper management could run away with complexities and don't follow the KISS rule.

Does it matter if a starter throws a changeup to start an AB 5% of the time if it is a pitch the batter struggles with anyways?

The only player I expect to get that far into the nitty gritty is the Catcher.

[Vanimal46]

Rocco is most certainly a middle manager in this organization. He likely has some freedom with in-game decisions. For the most part, he has a mutually agreed upon plan with the FO on pitching workload, and resting schedules with the players. 

I would venture to guess 31 out of 32 managers have this same arrangement with their FO staff (can’t predict Colorado). 

[tony&rodney]

Terry Francona is a manager in the former style. The dugout and clubhouse is his and he controls the voices as well. I'm not sure about others but believe Buck Showalter is in a similar situation, but I don't know.

[gunnarthor]

The few examples I know about where players learned something and improved were, more or less, of the KISS rule. Torii Hunter got better (and his walk rate increased) when he started taking more sliders - and he could recognize them because they were the pitches with the red dot. But he said he didn't have a lot of experience/teaching on how to identify a pitch and learned it gradually. Harmon Killebrew had a silly mantra that helped him - if it's not a strike, don't swing. Justin Morneau said that he would see how pitchers pitched Mauer and would expect similar approach to him. Mark Buehrle said a big part of his success was just not thinking - he famously never shook off his catcher - and just threw the ball. (Obviously, Buehrle was being too kind, he was a very good pitcher with insane control. I'm sure he worked very hard).

I suspect things like that are how most players learn and approach the game. I doubt (but don't know) that many players think more analytically than that. So how information the FO is giving the players might be important - it has to be digestible. But we see the players with their little cards in the OF that shows them where to line up, which has certainly helped defenses across the game.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

6 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

As a former middle manager, I can assure you he has instructions from above, and freedom to act. There is no such thing as only following a spreadsheet. That's a ridiculous meme with no reality. 

As for judging his decisions? They aren't his alone. There will never be a baseball manager again that acts without the guidance of the front office and others. And that's likely good for making better decisions as a whole. Those won't always work, as no good process can cover for bad decisions or bad luck. 

Judge as you want, but my hope is this site does so intelligently and with some humor and humanity.

As a current middle manager, agreed entirely! The matrixed teams management philosophy has entrenched itself in MLB teams (and corporations around the world) and will only become more pervasive.

such is life in big business.

i can’t imagine an immediate world where executives (baseball or corporate) change modus operandi away from matrixed decisions.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

4 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Rocco is most certainly a middle manager in this organization. He likely has some freedom with in-game decisions. For the most part, he has a mutually agreed upon plan with the FO on pitching workload, and resting schedules with the players. 

I would venture to guess 31 out of 32 managers have this same arrangement with their FO staff (can’t predict Colorado). 

An executive manager has P&L responsibility. A middle manager does not.

is there a baseball manager in the history of baseball (outside of the owner managers in the early days) that has ever had to manage the profitability of the team?

Joe Maddon has always been a middle manager and thinks really highly of himself. I think highly of Joe too, but he’s shouting at the kids on his lawn a bit with this one.

[TopTwinsFan]

Rocco Baldelli is a D to D- game manager. D- to F with pitching decisions.

[Parfigliano]

11 hours ago, RedBull34 said:

I feel like there is a lot of truth to this statement.  Players probably(especially younger ones) don't care or comprehend if you proceed to talk about four pitchers they expect to see that day and everything they do or could do in every count.

It needs to be simpler, "We expect the starter to throw Inside Fastballs OR a Slider Away to start an AB.  You mash fastballs up and away, so sit on a mistake, don't chase.  If you get behind, don't fall for the slider away."  Point out any noticed pitch-tipping "He throws his slider from a lower arm-slot.  It looks like this when he releases vs. this when he throws fastball."

I could see where the upper management could run away with complexities and don't follow the KISS rule.

Does it matter if a starter throws a changeup to start an AB 5% of the time if it is a pitch the batter struggles with anyways?

The only player I expect to get that far into the nitty gritty is the Catcher.

But then alot of suits that couldnt...could. They know... as sk the spreadsheets

[Peter]

Definitely think the FO is telling Rocco what to do!!’ And yes he is middle manager, sucks to see twins blowing opportunities to take control of division. Lucky to only be 2 soon to be 3 back. Need to beat Cleveland/Chicago. 

[Irishman]

18 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I have to agree  ....

Managing is coming from top professionals  ( falvey and company ) , what a crock  , I haven't seen much professionalism in twins baseball  that gives me an encouraging sign that we can win beyond the season  , our baseball style of playing is about the worst  ....

No bunting , no stealing , no hit and run , no hitting behind the runners to move him up ,  no protecting the plate with 2 strikes ( to many strikeouts  looking , be in control , don't let umpire determine your fate ) , no situational hitting  , the list goes on and on ....

It's a different game I love ....

I agree with Blyleven2011.   Too many inconsistencies!  Too many injuries.   Bad draft.  Bad trades.  Bad FO.  Twins doesn’t deserve to play in playoff games this season.   They are disaster.  I’m done with Twins this season.   Twins fans do not deserve this.     
 

 

[Harrison Greeley III]

I was listening to this too. I tended to give Maddon the benefit of the doubt on his front office disputes, but now I'm seeing why he fell out with the Cubs and the Angels now. Managers have 3 main jobs:

1. Keep players motivated, loose, and determined to be at their best selves. 

2. Manage personnel in-game.

3. Carry out the vision for the front office.

The front office has a plan of attack for acquisition, development, game-usage, etc. If the manager just sees that vision as a nuisance, of course he's in for trouble. There are hundreds of millions of dollars being invested and allocated into what needs to be a coherent front office vision for building a winning team. If the manager is antagonistic to the plan and wants to be a cowboy about how he thinks the team should win, well, yeah he's going to get canned in today's game. There's just too much money at stake. 

Maddon's attitude about the 'Front office conduit' role being 'middle management' is ego-driven non-sense. Several managers are great in this role and provide great leadership. Maddon doesn't do well in this role. The game passed him by and his ego gets in his own way to realize it. The irony is extra thick because his forward-thinking on things like shifting and the 4th outfielder are a big part of acceleration of it happening. 

[mikelink45]

1 hour ago, Harrison Greeley III said:

I was listening to this too. I tended to give Maddon the benefit of the doubt on his front office disputes, but now I'm seeing why he fell out with the Cubs and the Angels now. Managers have 3 main jobs:

1. Keep players motivated, loose, and determined to be at their best selves. 

2. Manage personnel in-game.

3. Carry out the vision for the front office.

The front office has a plan of attack for acquisition, development, game-usage, etc. If the manager just sees that vision as a nuisance, of course he's in for trouble. There are hundreds of millions of dollars being invested and allocated into what needs to be a coherent front office vision for building a winning team. If the manager is antagonistic to the plan and wants to be a cowboy about how he thinks the team should win, well, yeah he's going to get canned in today's game. There's just too much money at stake. 

Maddon's attitude about the 'Front office conduit' role being 'middle management' is ego-driven non-sense. Several managers are great in this role and provide great leadership. Maddon doesn't do well in this role. The game passed him by and his ego gets in his own way to realize it. The irony is extra thick because his forward-thinking on things like shifting and the 4th outfielder are a big part of acceleration of it happening. 

Interesting take - I don't agree with it, but then I have always been a little rebellious and I appreciate Maddon's perspective.