The wrong guy is closing

[CRF]

In my opinion, anyway. What does everybody else think? We have possibly the best closer candidate to come down the pike in a very long time. Of course I mean Duran. I know he's a pretty raw rookie, but he's got 100 mph heat, filthy stuff, good command/control, and it sure doesn't look like the pressure gets to him at all. He's legit. I know there are concerns with his work load and use. That's understood. He's still the guy I'd put in the closer role. Ok, we trade for Lopez, who's had some success with Balt closing games this season. This is also his first year as a reliever/closer. His career numbers aren't that great, but he's done ok this year. We also lit him up in a couple games in a row earlier this year. For some reason, since we traded for him, he's appointed our closer, which Rocco really hasn't had any one specific guy doing before that this season. Lopez has been underwhelming to say the least, with another poor outing last night. Maybe he figures it out...maybe he doesn't, but I still say that Duran should be the closer, and Lopez the set up guy. We let another game slip away last night and we can't do that. Time is running out. What do you guys/gals think? 

[Dave The Dastardly]

I'm with you, CRF. Duran's the guy.

[terrydactyls]

"Closer" seems to me to be a term no longer used.  I fully agree that Duran is the best choice to shut down an opponent in the late innings.  But in the scenario there the middle of the opponent's lineup is coming to bat in the 8th inning, I would rather see Duran take the mound and someone else face the bottom of the order in the 9th.

[Squirrel]

I would generally agree that I'd like to see Duran 'closing', but as terry said above, I'd rather Duran face the heart of the order if they come up in the 7th or 8th in a close game, and not wait until the the 9th. I mean, you wait until the 9th, the heart of the order is up in the 8th, and you give the ball to someone else and they cough up the lead, then what? I don't think there are designated inning roles anymore. The days of 'Duran only pitches in the 9th' are over. But, I do think he's our best pitcher out of the pen and I want him in the highest leverage situation.

This is why you should have a pen filled with 'closers'. That was the failing of the FO this past off-season ... I think having an awesome BP is more important than having a starting rotation filled with 1's and 2's.

[gman]

I've wondered if its easier to face Lopez after facing Duran. After all, Lopez throws only 98, about 4-5 miles slower.

[Nine of twelve]

29 minutes ago, gman said:

I've wondered if its easier to face Lopez after facing Duran. After all, Lopez throws only 98, about 4-5 miles slower.

"Only" 98. I guess that's a reflection of the increase in the number of high-velocity relievers in the modern game. The thing to remember is that if they pitch back-to-back innings they wouldn't be facing the same batters anyway.

[ashbury]

34 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

if they pitch back-to-back innings they wouldn't be facing the same batters anyway.

Some games, it seems like, they do.

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

"Closer" seems to me to be a term no longer used.  I fully agree that Duran is the best choice to shut down an opponent in the late innings.  But in the scenario there the middle of the opponent's lineup is coming to bat in the 8th inning, I would rather see Duran take the mound and someone else face the bottom of the order in the 9th.

This. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

28 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Some games, it seems like, they do.

Duran the first three or perhaps four hitters, Lopez the next six or seven as the lineup rolls over.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

"Closer" seems to me to be a term no longer used.  I fully agree that Duran is the best choice to shut down an opponent in the late innings.  But in the scenario there the middle of the opponent's lineup is coming to bat in the 8th inning, I would rather see Duran take the mound and someone else face the bottom of the order in the 9th.

Exactly this. 

[ashbury]

3 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

"Closer" seems to me to be a term no longer used.  I fully agree that Duran is the best choice to shut down an opponent in the late innings.  But in the scenario there the middle of the opponent's lineup is coming to bat in the 8th inning, I would rather see Duran take the mound and someone else face the bottom of the order in the 9th.

Precisely this.

[Jerr]

4 hours ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

I'm with you, CRF. Duran's the guy.

Me too!!!

 

[Rosterman]

Lopez has the good closer attitude, it seems. Duran still needs to develop that, but he may be close. Consistency throwing 100mph is his key for the remainder of the season.

 

Now if only we had a real closer insted of all those games with Duffey and Pagan.

[JD-TWINS]

Duran isn’t experienced or they would have tried to get 3 Fulmer’s at the deadline & not an All-Star closer……problem is, Lopez was falling off with Baltimore a bit before we got him and he’s inexperienced as a reliever as well! He throws 4 pitches & so does Duran - not typical for a closer …….more chances to walk guys vs. a two pitch closer!!

Am worried Lopez has a confidence issue with his past 45 days of so, so performances. Gotta be confident to be Closer!!

I think Duran is the best choice at this point.

[Azviking101]

I want Duran pitching the most of any reliever on the team, and that is not the closer role. When he was pitching in the closer role he was consistently having stretches where he wasn’t pitching for 4-6 days. Saving a guy for a save situation that might not come up is the problem and that can’t happen. 

[RickOShea]

On 9/3/2022 at 5:57 AM, CRF said:

In my opinion, anyway. What does everybody else think? We have possibly the best closer candidate to come down the pike in a very long time. Of course I mean Duran. I know he's a pretty raw rookie, but he's got 100 mph heat, filthy stuff, good command/control, and it sure doesn't look like the pressure gets to him at all. He's legit. I know there are concerns with his work load and use. That's understood. He's still the guy I'd put in the closer role. Ok, we trade for Lopez, who's had some success with Balt closing games this season. This is also his first year as a reliever/closer. His career numbers aren't that great, but he's done ok this year. We also lit him up in a couple games in a row earlier this year. For some reason, since we traded for him, he's appointed our closer, which Rocco really hasn't had any one specific guy doing before that this season. Lopez has been underwhelming to say the least, with another poor outing last night. Maybe he figures it out...maybe he doesn't, but I still say that Duran should be the closer, and Lopez the set up guy. We let another game slip away last night and we can't do that. Time is running out. What do you guys/gals think? 

Since Rocco is not known as a manager with set parameters, ie. batting order, starters, defensive positioning, I see putting Duran as the closer and Lopez as as a set-up man, as a real possibility to try.  At this point he should be doing whatever is necessary to salvage this season.  I sometimes wonder where rocco's coming from.  His decision making process is puzzling a lot of the time.  These young guys need some stability to build confidence and experience.  

I hope the FO in their post season evaluation meetings, take a long hard look at rocco's future with this club.  

[Beast]

What Duran did today against the Sox (bailing Fullmer out of his mess as nonchalantly as brushing his teeth in the morning) is so much more valuable than locking him into save situations only.

I don’t think it changes a thing from game 1 of the series, either.  Lopez would’ve just blown it in the 8th, then you either burn Duran when you’re down or he sits back down and doesn’t pitch at all.

If you get to the 6th-7th inning or later with a tight lead (or in a jam like today) and the other teams best hitters due up, Duran should pitch that situation every time (when available).

Durban’s usage is one of the few things Baldelli has done well, IMO.

[rwilfong86]

On 9/3/2022 at 3:17 PM, Rosterman said:

Lopez has the good closer attitude, it seems. Duran still needs to develop that, but he may be close. Consistency throwing 100mph is his key for the remainder of the season.

 

Now if only we had a real closer insted of all those games with Duffey and Pagan.

I would take Lopez over Duffey and Pagan any day. Lopez hasn't been perfect with the Twins but he has good stuff.

[Squirrel]

Caleb Thielbar for closer!

[ashbury]

53 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Caleb Thielbar for closer!

He did well against righties today.

[Squirrel]

50 minutes ago, ashbury said:

He did well against righties today.

You do know I was being facetious, I assume

[ashbury]

22 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

You do know I was being facetious, I assume

With Duran being designated for the highest leverage situations, someone has to be able to close out a win in the ninth.  So the entire concept of Closer these days carries a whiff of facetiousness.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yesterday was a perfect example of why Duran isn't the closer. What he did in the seventh and eighth of a game that felt like it was slipping away is more valuable than coming into a clean ninth inning with a lead.

I'm of the opinion that your "closer" should be your second or third best reliever and Lopez is the Twins' second best reliever. What the Twins are doing feels perfectly in line with what they should be doing in these situations.

[CRF]

8 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yesterday was a perfect example of why Duran isn't the closer. What he did in the seventh and eighth of a game that felt like it was slipping away is more valuable than coming into a clean ninth inning with a lead.

I'm of the opinion that your "closer" should be your second or third best reliever and Lopez is the Twins' second best reliever. What the Twins are doing feels perfectly in line with what they should be doing in these situations.

I respect your opinion, but I also respectfully disagree. I'll leave it at that. Granted, it worked out yesterday. The late runs we scored made all the difference in the world. I guess I'm too old school, and just too damn old, to grasp the way some teams use their bullpens. There are still many teams that use their "closer" in the traditional way. I wish we were one of them. That's all I'll say on the subject. 

[twinfan]

Both can be good in the 9th inning though tight now I would trust Lopez more with a 1 run lead and Duran more with a 2 run lead. Lopez has gone downhill a bit since coming here. But we got to get to the 9th inning and we haven't been very good at doing that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

32 minutes ago, CRF said:

I respect your opinion, but I also respectfully disagree. I'll leave it at that. Granted, it worked out yesterday. The late runs we scored made all the difference in the world. I guess I'm too old school, and just too damn old, to grasp the way some teams use their bullpens. There are still many teams that use their "closer" in the traditional way. I wish we were one of them. That's all I'll say on the subject. 

But think about it for a moment. Yesterday Duran entered a one run lead with the bases occupied and pitched 1.2 scoreless innings, during which the Twins scored multiple runs and put the game out of reach.

Why would you ever use anyone but your best reliever to prevent a tie game or a loss during a critical late inning situation? Why risk having to mount a rally just to save your best relief option for a specific inning?

Duran had a .385 WPA in that game. The next highest from a pitcher on either side was Dylan Bundy's .277 WPA. Duran was the most valuable pitcher in that game by a long shot. Isn't that where you want your best reliever when the dust settles?

[Craig Arko]

44 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

But think about it for a moment. Yesterday Duran entered a one run lead with the bases occupied and pitched 1.2 scoreless innings, during which the Twins scored multiple runs and put the game out of reach.

Why would you ever use anyone but your best reliever to prevent a tie game or a loss during a critical late inning situation? Why risk having to mount a rally just to save your best relief option for a specific inning?

Duran had a .385 WPA in that game. The next highest from a pitcher on either side was Dylan Bundy's .277 WPA. Duran was the most valuable pitcher in that game by a long shot. Isn't that where you want your best reliever when the dust settles?

There have been many points where Brock and I have disagreed. This is not one of them. This is absolutely spot on.

[Nine of twelve]

4 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

 

Why would you ever use anyone but your best reliever to prevent a tie game or a loss during a critical late inning situation? Why risk having to mount a rally just to save your best relief option for a specific inning?

 

When there is a situation where an opposing rally could lose the game there's only one thing to do. Nip it in the bud!