It's Time to Shut Down Byron Buxton

[chpettit19]

Just now, SanoMustGo said:

No one is giving up, we are just looking at the make up of the team and being realistic.  The 2009 and 2010 teams would destroy the team taking the field tonight.

You're asking them to shutdown their best player for no reason other than you don't want him to get hurt when they aren't going to make the playoffs. You don't call that giving up? What do you call it when you suggest not playing your best player even though they could play?

[SanoMustGo]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

But you've been saying that the last 30 games and they still haven't fallen out of the race. This division is awful. The Twins should be getting multiple players back in September. Maybe they'll come to life like the 2009 and 2010 teams and chase down the division title. Maybe they won't. But why would we ever want to give up on a season with over a month to go when they're only 2 games out? I'm not predicting a WS title. Not even a playoff win. But why just throw in the towel in August?

I think the difference is perspective.  You are hoping the team starts playing better than they have the last 80 games.  Those guys coming back better get back soon, and better contribute ALOT from the moment they get back, or they could be much farther behind by Sept 8.  They are only 2 games back, but they are moving in the wrong direction.  They are not getting better, they are getting worse, game by game.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Cody Pirkl said:

Because they've been a straight up bad team since May and it comes down to more than just "giving up" as I've pointed out. I think we need to just agree to disagree on this one because I see you're quoting every single comment in the thread that slightly suggests that the team may not be very good.

You came on and responded to every single comment in the thread that slightly suggests the Twins shouldn't quit on the season. I'm responding to the 2 people responding to me. Isn't this the entire point of the comment section on Twins Daily?

They've been a bad team that's still within 2 games of the division. I wouldn't care if they were 10 games under .500 if they were only 2 games back. When you're in the hunt you should keep hunting. Shouldn't have traded any prospects for reinforcements if being 2 games back on 8/23 meant throwing in the towel.

[terrydactyls]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Do you look at Buxton and see someone who isn't following a good conditioning plan? There's a number of articles out there that you can find about his running routine during the offseason to keep his speed and stay in shape. Buxton works his tail off. Somebody doesn't have to have failed at something for them to be injury prone. Sometimes their bodies just weren't meant to do the things professional athletes do with their bodies. Sucks, but it happens. There's no reason to believe Buxton's injuries have anything to do with lack of effort on his part.

Maybe running isn't the method of conditioning he needs to be doing?  I have no suggestions because I'm not a medical professional nor do I have access to his medical files.  For all I know, he might benefit more from yoga or Tai Chi.  Just looking fit and trim (which sounds like a low-fat yogurt) does not necessarily mean you are in top condition.

[Cody Pirkl]

3 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

Shutting Buxton down is folding the season.  As abyssal as the offense has been with him, it doesn't take much imagination to see what it'll be without him.  If they wouldn't shut him down earlier to deal with his lingering issues, doing it now doesn't make much sense if the goal is still a playoff push.  And if the goal wasn't a playoff push in the first place, why wasn't he shut down earlier?

FWIW I wrote this prior to him being put on the IL which is what I wanted to see over them just sitting him for a day or 2 and sending him back out. 

The difference between the entire season of managing him and now is how bad he looked on Monday. They can't let him continue getting to that point, and if they're out of it by the time he's eligible to be back, there's no reason to risk it.

[SanoMustGo]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You're asking them to shutdown their best player for no reason other than you don't want him to get hurt when they aren't going to make the playoffs. You don't call that giving up? What do you call it when you suggest not playing your best player even though they could play?

Buxton has been playing throughout the last 80 games, but things are still moving in the wrong direction.  At this point he is not healthy enough to carry this team.  Let him play, but at the end of Sept it probably won't matter.

[SanoMustGo]

Just now, Cody Pirkl said:

FWIW I wrote this prior to him being put on the IL which is what I wanted to see over them just sitting him for a day or 2 and sending him back out. 

The difference between the entire season of managing him and now is how bad he looked on Monday. They can't let him continue getting to that point, and if they're out of it by the time he's eligible to be back, there's no reason to risk it.

and that might be the case

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, SanoMustGo said:

I think the difference is perspective.  You are hoping the team starts playing better than they have the last 80 games.  Those guys coming back better get back soon, and better contribute ALOT from the moment they get back, or they could be much farther behind by Sept 8.  They are only 2 games back, but they are moving in the wrong direction.  They are not getting better, they are getting worse, game by game.

My point is they don't even need to play drastically better to be in the fight. They haven't been good for 80 games yet they're still only 2 games back. That's the point. They don't need to have Buxton, Correa, and Polanco turn into MVPs or have Larnach come back and blast 12 homeruns in 3 weeks to win the division. They aren't playing well. Not arguing that at all. They're still in the fight, though. So why shutdown your best player in the name of 2023 when you blindly hope they'll be better than 2 games out by August 23rd?

[wsnydes]

3 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

FWIW I wrote this prior to him being put on the IL which is what I wanted to see over them just sitting him for a day or 2 and sending him back out. 

The difference between the entire season of managing him and now is how bad he looked on Monday. They can't let him continue getting to that point, and if they're out of it by the time he's eligible to be back, there's no reason to risk it.

That does matter, and this appears to be a separate issue from the lingering knee.  

The Guardians and Twins still play 8 games against each other the rest of the way.  So, in order for them to be out of it in my mind, they'd have to be more than 8 games out.  I don't see that happening.  Not in this division.

[Chaz1966]

I don't think most here are saying it's a bad idea to shut Buxton down if that is whats necessary, but lets wait and see what his medicals call for. I also believe that if he can play threw the pain without risking further injury then yes, he should play. Simply put, these guys " ARE " paid to play, and being only 2 or 3 back in this division doesn't make winning it unthinkable.

Also, what makes you think they'll be drastically better next season? I see a ton of potential but no guarentees that our pitching will improve or our hitting will get any better. I believe you play to win this season until they are out of contention. All of this wait til next year stuff and we become the Vikings.

 

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, SanoMustGo said:

Buxton has been playing throughout the last 80 games, but things are still moving in the wrong direction.  At this point he is not healthy enough to carry this team.  Let him play, but at the end of Sept it probably won't matter.

It might not matter. But that wasn't your stance. Your stance was that it wouldn't matter so don't even risk it. My stance is to give them a shot with their best players. Now if his hip is never good enough to come back this year then none of this even matters. But if they're still mathematically in the race when he's healthy again I'd bring him back and see what he can do. 

[SanoMustGo]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

It might not matter. But that wasn't your stance. Your stance was that it wouldn't matter so don't even risk it. My stance is to give them a shot with their best players. Now if his hip is never good enough to come back this year then none of this even matters. But if they're still mathematically in the race when he's healthy again I'd bring him back and see what he can do. 

I frankly don't care either way if he plays at this point.  He is on the 10 day IL right now, and who knows how long it will actually be before he returns(based on his history).  I expect him to play again this season. if the FO determines he is healthy enough.  All I'm saying is it won't matter.  He has not been able to carry this team at any point this season, and he won't save this season unless he is firing on all cylinders.  Even then, it probably won't be enough.

[bean5302]

aaaaaaaannnnddd the part many people here are ignoring is they just shut Buxton down for 8 days after 7/17. He either strained his hip or significantly aggravated what was a sore hip and made his way to the 10 day IL, but I'll tell you this much... a true hip strain will likely keep Buxton out until mid September at least. So the people hoping and praying for the Twins to have their best player collecting dust on a shelf during the most important stretch of the season are getting their wish.

[SanoMustGo]

20 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

My point is they don't even need to play drastically better to be in the fight. They haven't been good for 80 games yet they're still only 2 games back. That's the point. They don't need to have Buxton, Correa, and Polanco turn into MVPs or have Larnach come back and blast 12 homeruns in 3 weeks to win the division. They aren't playing well. Not arguing that at all. They're still in the fight, though. So why shutdown your best player in the name of 2023 when you blindly hope they'll be better than 2 games out by August 23rd?

Considering the games left against teams as good or better than the Twins, I think Buxton, Correa, and Polanco will need to play like all stars.  We cannot beat good teams unless they do.

[wsnydes]

9 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

aaaaaaaannnnddd the part many people here are ignoring is they just shut Buxton down for 8 days after 7/17. He either strained his hip or significantly aggravated what was a sore hip and made his way to the 10 day IL, but I'll tell you this much... a true hip strain will likely keep Buxton out until mid September at least. So the people hoping and praying for the Twins to have their best player collecting dust on a shelf during the most important stretch of the season are getting their wish.

How do you know this isn't the same thing that kept him out for those 8 days in July?

Shutting him down because he's unable to play is quite different than just shutting him down to save him for 2023.

[SanoMustGo]

9 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

aaaaaaaannnnddd the part many people here are ignoring is they just shut Buxton down for 8 days after 7/17. He either strained his hip or significantly aggravated what was a sore hip and made his way to the 10 day IL, but I'll tell you this much... a true hip strain will likely keep Buxton out until mid September at least. So the people hoping and praying for the Twins to have their best player collecting dust on a shelf during the most important stretch of the season are getting their wish.

And again, by Sept 8, they could be out of it for all practical matters..  Mathematically out of it means nothing.  6 games out with 12-15 left is out of it in my book.

[Pwjxr56]

3 hours ago, Dman said:

It might me time to shut him down but when a player has incentive clauses in his contract that becomes a tougher decision for both sides.  Shutting him down might be the right thing to do but I don't think they will do it.

 

[bean5302]

15 minutes ago, SanoMustGo said:

And again, by Sept 8, they could be out of it for all practical matters..  Mathematically out of it means nothing.  6 games out with 12-15 left is out of it in my book.

If all their best players are at home on the sofa, there's a pretty good chance of that, isn't there? 

 

16 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

How do you know this isn't the same thing that kept him out for those 8 days in July?

Shutting him down because he's unable to play is quite different than just shutting him down to save him for 2023.

Feel free to read my post any time you want before creating a strawman.

[wsnydes]

18 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

If all their best players are at home on the sofa, there's a pretty good chance of that, isn't there? 

 

Feel free to read my post any time you want before creating a strawman.

It's not a strawman.  It's not even an argument, it's a question.  You stated in your own post that a hip strain or an aggregation of a sore hip kept him out 8 days in July.  I simply asked how you, or anyone else at this point, know that this isn't the same thing.  

And the OPs point was to shut him down regardless.  If he has a true hip strain, you stated that he'd be out longer than the 10 days anyway so everyone looking to have him shut down would likely get their wish.  But, if he's not able to play due to injury, I simply stated that that isn't the same thing as just shutting him down regardless.  It's shutting him down because he's unable to play.  Two different things.

[puckstopper1]

1 hour ago, wsnydes said:

Shutting Buxton down is folding the season.  As abyssal as the offense has been with him, it doesn't take much imagination to see what it'll be without him.  If they wouldn't shut him down earlier to deal with his lingering issues, doing it now doesn't make much sense if the goal is still a playoff push.  And if the goal wasn't a playoff push in the first place, why wasn't he shut down earlier?

It depends on why you were shutting him down. If he truly is not gonna hurt himself any further by playing then let him play. If he’s risking more serious injury by playing then shut him down. We’ll see where things are at in 10 days I guess.

[wsnydes]

11 minutes ago, puckstopper1 said:

It depends on why you were shutting him down. If he truly is not gonna hurt himself any further by playing then let him play. If he’s risking more serious injury by playing then shut him down. We’ll see where things are at in 10 days I guess.

Sure, but shutting him down just to shut him down for 2023 and shutting him down because he's truly going to do further injury are two different things.

[jkcarew]

Does anyone really believe that shutting him down now will impact his 2023 health at all? If so, why?? He’s going to be hurt every single year…and he’s going to miss significant time every single year. There’s zero history to suggest otherwise no matter what you do with him now. Zero.

If he can play, play him. If not, don’t.

[Yawn Gardenhose]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

The 2009 and 2010 Twins teams were both more than 5 games out going into September and both made the playoffs. Why are we giving up on a team in August?

This isn't even half true. The 09 team started September 3.5 games out of first. The 2010 team was leading the division by 4 games on September 1.

[I wish the twins were good]

This team is terrible. Absolutely no point pushing Buck. This team is more lethargic than some of those god-awful mid 2010s teams that had a fraction of the talent. I hope they clean house this off-season (on the field and off).

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Yawn Gardenhose said:

This isn't even half true. The 09 team started September 3.5 games out of first. The 2010 team was leading the division by 4 games on September 1.

You're right, that '09 team didn't fall 5 games back until September 3rd. Then 6 games back September 4th. Then 7 back on Sept 6th when they were sitting at 68-68.

I did get my years wrong on the other one, though. It was 2006 that they were way back to start September. They were 6 back on September 1 that year, and in 3rd place.

My point is the same, though. Giving up on the season when they're 2 games back on August 23rd is silly. They were 7 out, and in 3rd place on this date in '06. And 4.5 out, and in 3rd place, on this date in 2009. In fact, in 2009 they were not only 4.5 out on August 23rd, but they were 2 games under .500. According to some on this thread they should've shut injury prone Joe Mauer down on Aug 23rd, 2009 to save him for 2010 since they had no shot at the division.

[Stew]

Give him 15 days off. Check him out, if he can play ok. If not shut him down completely. Others will have to pick up the slack.

[insagt1]

I believe if Buck can physically get out there, he will play. The bigger issue is, will he contribute enough to make a difference? He really isn't our 'best player' if you look at his overall performance. He should be our best player. In fact many touted him as one of the best players in MLB before season started....IF..he stayed healthy.

He didn't. His situational hitting has really taken a nosedive. His defensive skills have been short circuited to an extent because of his fragile body not allowing him to do the things that continue to astound us all. He has killed his share of rallies with k's with the best of them this year.

My best guess is he is out for 2 weeks. By then Twins may know whether its worth rushing him back. If they are under .500 and more than 5 games behind, they will need to re-evaluate their options. Twins should ALWAYS be a better team with Buxton in the lineup. For the better part of the first half, that was very true. Not so much anymore. And I just have to think that the reason for his less than stellar season at the plate is that he has played the entire year hurt. And the compound effect of the daily grind has caught up with him.

Meantime, the Twins are sinking slowly like the setting sun, and it certainly isn't all buxton's doing. But he is an accomplice.

[ashbury]

It's Time to Shut Down Tim Beckham

 

/ if you ask me

 

[old nurse]

8 hours ago, ashbury said:

It's Time to Shut Down Tim Beckham

 

/ if you ask me

 

Jake Cave has nothing left. He can go with him. Emilio would be a popular choice also. There must be something wrong somewhere. 

[old nurse]

Right knee, hip. Buxton is not going to hit well with no base. I don’t know if Buxton has lost flexibility or if he works too hard and these are overuse injuries. Tendinitis in the knee would normally be the patellar tendon. He could hit, but not run. The hip could be compensating for the knee. But really I don’t know because I haven’t seen either the patient or the diagnostician (the smartest person in the room who is hopefully smart enough to figure it out)