Players like Baldelli as a person but....

[GeorgiaBaller]

@Mike Sixel Everyone is entitled to their opinion--but success in this game is shaped by statistics and should not be completely dictated by them.  I think several of us are stating that baseball is not poker.  Statistics are measurements and they work almost definitively with static options---like you have in cards.  Baseball is not that way and while historical facts are tremendous guardrails, they can't dictate every decision.  Players go thru phases and are sometimes more locked-in than other times, physically perform better or worse  through some stretches and situationally, some players do fold in the clutch and some excel.  Its their individual makeup.  A manager who is with the team can feel and know those things watching players every day---and should make situational calls that sometimes go against the statistics.  Like I said before, Billy Bean would have a better WAR than most in the league at his GM position---but wile the Tampa Bays Rays have won WS's with a paltry payroll in a small market---have the A's?

Not all bunts or lower impact hits are sacrifices.  Sacrifices do have a place in the game and are valuable situationally.  A sacrifice to score a run should always be in the gameplan---without exception;  another place where knowledge and not just stats come into play.  There are so many weak arms in the outfield now in the majors, fly balls to the outfield with RISP are a strong play. And yes, bunts are useful situationally.  You will see many more bunts in the playoffs this year---like you have the last few years---- than the regular season.

Last---any ballplayer who has ever played or taken batting practice knows you do have different swings as a batter.  Some guys choke up on their bat, some guys close their stance, and some slow their swings just a little. Not all guys have good enough hands to do it, but I have seen Arraez, Urshela and Gordon all get hits in just the last few weeks by waiting a little longer, shortening their swing and swinging 3/4 to punch a ball into a short field.   Usually with 2 strikes.  Gary Sanchez even did it last week on a two strike hit to right field.

Baseball is a game of skill. There is some art and finesse involved by the player----AND the manager.  Don't make a beautiful sport into a computer game.

 

[GeorgiaBaller]

sorry---all the typo's make my last post almost un-readable!

 

[tony&rodney]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:01 AM, chpettit19 said:

If getting their butts kicked by the Dodgers caused the players to quit trying hard it isn't a Rocco problem it's a players problem. If they only have 2 competitors on the team (Arraez and Miranda according to you), and they're only competitors because Arraez wants a batting title and Miranda wants to stay in the bigs (I assume that's what you mean by "a future") the team is screwed anyways. It's an incredibly huge leap to suggest the players have just quit because they lost a couple games to the best team in baseball. Even if Correa doesn't care about winning with the Twins, he certainly cares about getting hundreds of millions of dollars after the year so I'd be awfully surprised if losing to the Dodgers made him just quit caring about performing well. 

As for the players as a whole not liking or agreeing with Rocco's strategy, all I've seen is the 1 Gray clip that people attribute to him being mad at Rocco and not at the way the game is played now or not himself for not performing better. Maybe that was him being mad at Rocco. But I've seen far more praise of Rocco from players like Buxton and Correa than I have seen of guys complaining. This mostly seems to be fan projection of their own dislike of modern baseball strategy than anything else. The Twins aren't doing anything extreme with the pitching or hitting strategies they employ.

Most times when a team scores 3+ runs in an inning they win the game. What's the easiest way to score 3+ runs in an inning? It's not with hit and runs and stolen bases, it's with big flies. And that's why teams pay for power and not stolen bases. The year they set the HR record they weren't lightyears ahead of the competition, they beat the Yankees by 1 homerun. The 4 highest single season HR totals for a team all came in 2019. The leader board for total team HRs in a season is riddled with modern teams because it's what the math says is the best way to win. 17 of the top 50 team HR totals ever have come in 2019 or 2021. And NYY and ATL are likely to join the top 50 this season as well. So 19 of 50 in 3 years. This is modern baseball strategy.

Starting pitcher inning totals have cratered leaguewide in recent years. This isn't just a Rocco or Twins thing, it's a baseball thing. In 2012 Verlander lead the league with 238.1 IP. There were 31 guys who threw at least 200 innings. In 2019 (used pre-2020 so can't blame it on shortened season usage changes) Verlander lead with 223 IP. There were 15 guys who threw 200+ innings (including Jose Berrios, because the Twins aren't doing anything extreme!). In 7 years the number of guys throwing 200 innings a season was cut in half. This is modern baseball strategy.

If the players on the Twins are quitting on the Twins because they don't like or agree with the strategies being used they may as well retire.

While I agree with most of what you said, it is worth noting that at least one year (likely 2-3) MLB used superballs which messed with all accepted norms. 2019 was an aberration that is Manfredball at its worst; everyone hits home runs. I'm a little curious how much of the change we see in baseball is due to an influx of the businessman replacing baseball people in strategy decisions such as lineups, when to pull pitchers, and so forth. I have no idea if that is a specific cause of change but the game today does seem to lack some basic fundamentals. I don't find analytics new at all but I do feel they seem to have become the tail that wags the dog.

[chpettit19]

14 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

While I agree with most of what you said, it is worth noting that at least one year (likely 2-3) MLB used superballs which messed with all accepted norms. 2019 was an aberration that is Manfredball at its worst; everyone hits home runs. I'm a little curious how much of the change we see in baseball is due to an influx of the businessman replacing baseball people in strategy decisions such as lineups, when to pull pitchers, and so forth. I have no idea if that is a specific cause of change but the game today does seem to lack some basic fundamentals. I don't find analytics new at all but I do feel they seem to have become the tail that wags the dog.

I agree. Analytics have become too big of a part of the game. But if you're not using them you're at a disadvantage. It's up to the league to continue to put new rules in place, or tweak old ones, to get the game back to a more watchable product. The teams are never going to stop relying on the data and adjusting their strategies based on it. The league has to force the game to be played the way they want it to be played.

Most of my comments on these things aren't in support of analytics, but just meant to refute the idea that the Twins are doing things "wrong." They're doing things the way modern baseball teams do things. They're outside the norms slightly here and there (pull pitchers a little earlier than other teams, for example), but overall this isn't Rocco or the FO being crazy, it's them doing what modern baseball teams do.

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, GeorgiaBaller said:

sorry---all the typo's make my last post almost un-readable!

 

There should be an edit feature if you click the 3 dots near the top of your post.

[GeorgiaBaller]

Thanks for the ... info--I never noticed before!

[GCTF]

Coming up on the Twins post game show: Mothers and runaway daughters reunited by their hatred of Rocco Baldelli.

[tony&rodney]

12 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I agree. Analytics have become too big of a part of the game. But if you're not using them you're at a disadvantage. It's up to the league to continue to put new rules in place, or tweak old ones, to get the game back to a more watchable product. The teams are never going to stop relying on the data and adjusting their strategies based on it. The league has to force the game to be played the way they want it to be played.

Most of my comments on these things aren't in support of analytics, but just meant to refute the idea that the Twins are doing things "wrong." They're doing things the way modern baseball teams do things. They're outside the norms slightly here and there (pull pitchers a little earlier than other teams, for example), but overall this isn't Rocco or the FO being crazy, it's them doing what modern baseball teams do.

A small exerpt from the Joe Maddon interview in The Athletic -

"The art of the game is really being held secondarily, where it’s the numerical component that everybody wants to promote. And with those that are promoting this — this is with all due respect — it’s that they just don’t understand the game as much as they understand math.”

The last sentence says it all for me and I have said nearly the exact line in conversations where people ask me about baseball in 2022. Decades of coaching and playing gives one some perspectives and I'm not anywhere near those who have put in decades playing and coaching at the highest level. So yes, I have said that with respect for the jobs done there is a lack of understanding of baseball among the drivers of the game today. 

[h2oface]

31 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

A small exerpt from the Joe Maddon interview in The Athletic -

"The art of the game is really being held secondarily, where it’s the numerical component that everybody wants to promote. And with those that are promoting this — this is with all due respect — it’s that they just don’t understand the game as much as they understand math.”

The last sentence says it all for me and I have said nearly the exact line in conversations where people ask me about baseball in 2022. Decades of coaching and playing gives one some perspectives and I'm not anywhere near those who have put in decades playing and coaching at the highest level. So yes, I have said that with respect for the jobs done there is a lack of understanding of baseball among the drivers of the game today. 

And Joe Maddon is still available..........

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, h2oface said:

And Joe Maddon is still available..........

Hahahahaha .... can you imagine? 

Let's just hope the Twins run the table here and win the AL Central. I kinda feel sorry for the players because despite their huge salaries they seem to just be commodities to a machine. 

[Aerodeliria]

My point is simple. To say someone is liked or disliked is a poor measurement of anything. If you ask any player on any team whether he likes his manager, what's he supposed to say? In the end, everyone loves the manager, but everyone loves winning more and that's what the goal should always be. 

[wabene]

7 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

A small exerpt from the Joe Maddon interview in The Athletic -

"The art of the game is really being held secondarily, where it’s the numerical component that everybody wants to promote. And with those that are promoting this — this is with all due respect — it’s that they just don’t understand the game as much as they understand math.”

The last sentence says it all for me and I have said nearly the exact line in conversations where people ask me about baseball in 2022. Decades of coaching and playing gives one some perspectives and I'm not anywhere near those who have put in decades playing and coaching at the highest level. So yes, I have said that with respect for the jobs done there is a lack of understanding of baseball among the drivers of the game today. 

That's interesting and there is some truth there. Good thing our manager is a ballplayer through and through. Star player at a premium defensive position. Played ball his whole life to the exclusion of all else. He chose baseball over education, ending his education at a high school diploma. Baseball lifer. 

[chpettit19]

On 9/6/2022 at 11:07 PM, tony&rodney said:

A small exerpt from the Joe Maddon interview in The Athletic -

"The art of the game is really being held secondarily, where it’s the numerical component that everybody wants to promote. And with those that are promoting this — this is with all due respect — it’s that they just don’t understand the game as much as they understand math.”

The last sentence says it all for me and I have said nearly the exact line in conversations where people ask me about baseball in 2022. Decades of coaching and playing gives one some perspectives and I'm not anywhere near those who have put in decades playing and coaching at the highest level. So yes, I have said that with respect for the jobs done there is a lack of understanding of baseball among the drivers of the game today. 

It rings a little disingenuous that Joe Maddon of all people is calling out analytics in anyway. He lead the charge on managing by analytics with Tampa. I mean things may have gone a little further now, but let's not act like Joe Maddon is/was some "old school/gut feeling" guy.

The top managers in the game all use the math, and were basically all major league players. Dave Roberts. Terry Francona. Alex Cora. Aaron Boone. I have great respect for Maddon, but that quote does nothing for me. If front offices are the problem, and are steamrolling managers into managing how they want, then it's an owner issue, and owners need to more clearly define the roles (and for the record I do believe this is the real problem with it all). But the managers actually pulling the trigger on pulling starters, using the shift, etc. are a whole bunch of baseball lifers who played at the top level. If Rocco lacks an understanding of the game I'd think we could blame it on his major league manager a little. Wasn't that Joe Maddon?

[tony&rodney]

9 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

It rings a little disingenuous that Joe Maddon of all people is calling out analytics in anyway. He lead the charge on managing by analytics with Tampa. I mean things may have gone a little further now, but let's not act like Joe Maddon is/was some "old school/gut feeling" guy.

The top managers in the game all use the math, and were basically all major league players. Dave Roberts. Terry Francona. Alex Cora. Aaron Boone. I have great respect for Maddon, but that quote does nothing for me. If front offices are the problem, and are steamrolling managers into managing how they want, then it's an owner issue, and owners need to more clearly define the roles (and for the record I do believe this is the real problem with it all). But the managers actually pulling the trigger on pulling starters, using the shift, etc. are a whole bunch of baseball lifers who played at the top level. If Rocco lacks an understanding of the game I'd think we could blame it on his major league manager a little. Wasn't that Joe Maddon?

Maddon does not call out analytics. He is as big a fan today of analytics as he was more than forty years ago. He specifically states that the players are inundated in the clubhouse and in the dugout which is information overload. The players simply cannot process a steady flow of massive data. Another point Maddon makes is related the imposition of front offices on managerial decisions, which directly led to his dismissal because he pushed back on the GM regarding game and player decisions. Lastly, Maddon states that player talent and the acquisition of those players by the front office plays the largest role in any teams' success, but that analytics within a game are less useful except for defensive positioning.

The guys who are managing and most coaches know a ton about baseball. They are not attuned to sales, marketing, etc. The front offices are good with business and a few front office folks are good at identifying talent but their baseball acumen is nowhere near the level of most baseball people, with maybe two exceptions.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

Maddon does not call out analytics. He is as big a fan today of analytics as he was more than forty years ago. He specifically states that the players are inundated in the clubhouse and in the dugout which is information overload. The players simply cannot process a steady flow of massive data. Another point Maddon makes is related the imposition of front offices on managerial decisions, which directly led to his dismissal because he pushed back on the GM regarding game and player decisions. Lastly, Maddon states that player talent and the acquisition of those players by the front office plays the largest role in any teams' success, but that analytics within a game are less useful except for defensive positioning.

The guys who are managing and most coaches know a ton about baseball. They are not attuned to sales, marketing, etc. The front offices are good with business and a few front office folks are good at identifying talent but their baseball acumen is nowhere near the level of most baseball people, with maybe two exceptions.

Except he isn't totally right about that stuff. Carlos Correa openly asks for as much data as humanly possible, and he isn't the only player. Some players can't handle it all, but stating "players simply cannot process a steady flow of massive data" is incorrect. Forcing every player to digest the same amount of information in the same way is poor management whether it comes from a manager or the FO, but some players can handle, and want, all that information.

And, yes, of course Maddon says he was fired because he pushed back on management. What else is he going to say? He was let go by 2 clubs, 1 of which was run by one of the most famous FO execs of this "analytics era." Call me a skeptic, but I'm not just going to take a fired Joe Maddon at his word that it was all the FO in both places, 1 of which had apparently already let him do things his way. Find it hard to believe he won a WS with the Cubs and suddenly they were like "no, you have to do it our way!" Isn't it more likely that the Cubs at least just felt he wasn't a good manager anymore and had lost the clubhouse than that they told their WS winning manager he had to change how he did things despite winning their first WS in over 100 years?

As for the usefulness of analytics within a game, I'll again point to all the baseball lifers that played the game at the highest level (which earlier you said the analytics people didn't do so don't understand the game) and are now managing at the highest level who use the analytics, beyond just defensive positioning, in their decision making. Joe Maddon himself used that stuff in lineup creation, pitcher usage, etc. So, again, I'm going to question Maddon's sudden change of heart after being replaced in his last 2 jobs and suddenly not being the face of the modern manager anymore. Dave Roberts, Terry Francona, Aaron Boone, Alex Cora, Dusty freaking Baker even are all using the "analytics" for more than just defensive shifts now. So sorry I'm not willing to just take Maddon at his word that he's now a crusader for good after being fired midseason when there's plenty of baseball lifers, and at least 1 HOF manager, using this stuff today.

And, as I said in my previous post, I agree there is a problem with how far the FOs appear to be starting to step into clubhouse/gameplay management. But there needs to be a general consensus on game strategy between the FO and the manager/coaches to run your org as best as possible. Selling Falvey as some marketing guy who doesn't know baseball, or how to identify talent, feels awfully disingenuous. He was a scout for the Indians for multiple years before making his way up. The business people are the Dave St Peters of the world, but they're not making baseball decisions. There is a very clear line between the two sides of things. Falvey is the President of Baseball operations, and isn't involved in the "sales, marketing, etc" stuff at all. Dave St Peter is the President and Chief Executive Officer of the Twins, and isn't involved in the evaluation of talent, or roster building, stuff at all (beyond helping set the budget). Suggesting Falvey (or Friedman in LA, or Theo when he was with Boston or Chicago) is just a sales/marketing guy is completely and totally inaccurate. They may not weigh the human side of things enough (I'd certainly buy that argument with the Twins), but suggesting they don't know the game is flat out incorrect.

[Mike Sixel]

22 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Maddon does not call out analytics. He is as big a fan today of analytics as he was more than forty years ago. He specifically states that the players are inundated in the clubhouse and in the dugout which is information overload. The players simply cannot process a steady flow of massive data. Another point Maddon makes is related the imposition of front offices on managerial decisions, which directly led to his dismissal because he pushed back on the GM regarding game and player decisions. Lastly, Maddon states that player talent and the acquisition of those players by the front office plays the largest role in any teams' success, but that analytics within a game are less useful except for defensive positioning.

The guys who are managing and most coaches know a ton about baseball. They are not attuned to sales, marketing, etc. The front offices are good with business and a few front office folks are good at identifying talent but their baseball acumen is nowhere near the level of most baseball people, with maybe two exceptions.

He never said anything until he went to a badly run team....... This is about that team, most likely. 

[dxpavelka]

Would LOVE to hear a detailed explanation of what Baldelli's done to prevent Araez from hitting .375.  I'll wait......