Sonny Gray not too happy with Rocco...

[umterp23]

Starters going 5 innings and possibly a 6th inning is fine if you have a solid bullpen who can work the rest of the game day in day out.  This year we don't have the bullpen goods to consistently work 4 and 5 innings a night.  Archer and Bundy both tax the bullpen almost every single outing they have and they are in the rotation back to back.  Too much strain on the BP guys.  Breath of fresh air to have a starter go 6+ on occasion helps everyone who is a pitcher

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

28 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

They traded a first round pick to get Gray 

It’s quite the high wire balancing act, to believe both that Sonny Gray would be so valuable that he’s worth trading your #1 pick for, and also that Sonny Gray can’t be trusted to pitch through six innings or face a lineup the third time.

Gray wants to be the workhorse. You could see it in the clip. That’s where I come down on this as well—let him pitch and see what happens.

 

[chpettit19]

19 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So we are talking pitches per start now and team records, young guys? I thought it was about TTO, limiting exposure? The goal posts seem to move every time something that might go against this comes up.

The argument that Keller and lynch doesn't hold water, because I could point out game after game, where teams lost pulling the pitcher one inning earlier or facing less batters than Lynch or Keller, and just as many games where they pitcher went the same amount of innings or batters faced as Lynch and Keller and didn't give up any runs.

I use Dan Dunning as an example because he basically is a 27 year old no name pitcher that has been allowed to face 25 batters or more 8 times this year (Which is 3 less than the whole Twins pitching staff). His team is 3 - 5 in those starts one was 3 -1 win, one was a 5-3 loss, one was a 6-5 loss, was one a 2 -1 loss, one was a 7-6 loss in extra innings, these are not blow outs ( 4 of them were prior to June 4th, so they weren't out of contention at that point)

He averages more pitches per start, more innings per start and more batters faced per start than any Twins Starter, and my guess is if you asked most people on TD if they would trade him straight up for Ryan or Gray the answer would be a He!! no.

Why is it so hard to people to admit how the Twins are treating their starters this year is mostly the same as everybody else but more extreme? And if the answer is because the Twins pitchers just aren't as good, we should be hammering on this FO, shouldn't we be? I mean how many years does it take to find one guy, just one like Dunning (or the dozens of other pitchers doing similiar things for example?

I mean the Texas Rangers are paying Perez 4 million dollars to do things the Twins pitchers can only dream of doing? and yet the Twins are paying Bundy more, Archer just 500K less, They traded a first round pick to get Gray and their best pitching prospect/Rookie has completed 5 2/3 innings in 5 of his last 15 starts.

Why is it so hard for people to admit that the average starter the third time through the order is worse than the average reliever in batted ball data, counting stats, run prevention stats, literally every kind of stat you can think of and that's why every team is doing some very similar version of what the Twins are doing? Fine, they're more extreme by less than 2 hitters and less than an inning a game. That's what we're upset about? That's "extreme?"

The Twins have a ton of Dunnings and signed Perez in 2019. What are you even complaining about at this point? The Twins are doing what is provably the smart thing to do and you're mad over 2 hitters and 2 outs a game? You're mad the Twins don't have more Dane Dunnings or "career year at the age of 31 when nobody would give him anything more than Dylan Bundy" Martin Perez? You're mad the Twins aren't the 48-72 Royals or 53-65 Rangers? You're mad the Twins have a team ERA of 3.97 and not 4.09 like the Rangers or 4.70 like the Royals? 

When Gray and Ryan were healthy and pitching well they were getting 6 or 7 innings a start. How much context are you going to ignore? Joe Ryan has been terrible more than he's been good lately. His ERA has jumped an entire run in August alone. Joe Ryan pitched into the 6th in 5 of his first 8 starts before going on the IL. Since then he hasn't been all that good so he's only managed to do it 5 of his last 11. Sonny Gray hasn't averaged 6 innings a start since 2017 and has had an IL stint every year. He's made 30 starts in a season 1 time since 2015. So we're mad that he's pitching the same amount as he has for the last 5 years? He was at 5.09 innings/start in 2020. 5.19 in 2021. And is at basically exactly 5 this year even with a game he left early due to injury. Like the 1.2 inning start. He's at 5.17 if you take that 1 injury game out. Again, what is extreme about this? He's down from 5.19 last year to 5.17 this year and this is what we're mad about? This is what's extreme? .02 fewer innings per start? Come on.

[TwinsDr2021]

10 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

It’s quite the high wire balancing act, to believe both that Sonny Gray would be so valuable that he’s worth trading your #1 pick for, and also that Sonny Gray can’t be trusted to pitch through six innings or face a lineup the third time.

Gray wants to be the workhorse. You could see it in the clip. That’s where I come down on this as well—let him pitch and see what happens.

 

Or the Twins just don't have the Stud pitchers needed to go further (innings, BF, innings per start) when ALL the pitchers in minors are pitching the same amount of innings or less than the major league club? I think Louie Varland the 24 year old pitcher recently promoted to AAA  is averaging the most innings per start (5) (or at leas the most inning pitched in the minors) and went 5 1/3 in his first start while allowing 1 hit and 2 walks)

[chpettit19]

17 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

It’s quite the high wire balancing act, to believe both that Sonny Gray would be so valuable that he’s worth trading your #1 pick for, and also that Sonny Gray can’t be trusted to pitch through six innings or face a lineup the third time.

Gray wants to be the workhorse. You could see it in the clip. That’s where I come down on this as well—let him pitch and see what happens.

 

Gray hasn't been a work horse since his 3rd year in the bigs. His rookie year he made 10 starts and 12 appearances. 2014 he then made 33 starts. 2015 he made 31. Since then he's made 22, 27, 16, 11, 23, 31, 11 (2020), 26, and he's at 18 this year. Last year he averaged 5.19 innings per start. This year he's at 5.17 if you take out his 1.2 inning injury game. This is who Sonny Gray is and who he's been for a long, long time now.

[TwinsDr2021]

25 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Why is it so hard for people to admit that the average starter the third time through the order is worse than the average reliever

Not hard to admit because that isn't at all what the conversation has been about, you have tried to make it that, but my points have been how the Twins do thing compared to the rest of the league.

27 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

The Twins have a ton of Dunnings and signed Perez in 2019. What are you even complaining about at this point? The Twins are doing what is provably the smart thing to do and you're mad over 2 hitters and 2 outs a game? You're mad

I am not mad at all on how the Twins are treating starting pitchers. Do I hate it? absolutely! If I was the GM of the Twins would I being doing something similiar? Absolutely in the major leagues, not in the minors but that is a different topic.

It should be super easy to prove the Twins are doing it exactly like other teams, but nobody has even tried to prove that, shouldn't that be fairly easy, shouldn't like 80% of the games be the examples? And when I have pointed out numerous games that happen daily the come back is the Twins pitchers are just not good enough isn't that more reflective of the job the FO is doing? 

I think the consensus on TD is that Berrios has been pretty terrible this year correct? On three occasions he has been allowed to face the number 9 hitter, and once face the lead off hitter 4 times (total times a Twins pitcher has faced the 9 hitter - Twice),  14 times he has faced 25 or more batters in a game, that is 3 more than the whole Twins team. Again I could do this exercise over and over and over, with pitchers that aren't Verlander, Kershaw and Scherzer) on just about every teamand you still going to try and save that it is 2 hitters a game? 

I get it that the average innings per start is going to be fairly close at the end of the year, but quite a bit of that will be a bunch of longer starts and a bunch of shorter shorts, but that isn't how the Twins get their average (they don't have a bunch of the longer games)

But hey if you want to continue to mislead people into believing they the are doing exactly what everybody else is doing, you be you and other people can say generally understand what the Twins are doing at any given time, but there are teams and pitchers that wouldn't be taken out in certain scenarios.

[chpettit19]

23 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Not hard to admit because that isn't at all what the conversation has been about, you have tried to make it that, but my points have been how the Twins do thing compared to the rest of the league.

I am not mad at all on how the Twins are treating starting pitchers. Do I hate it? absolutely! If I was the GM of the Twins would I being doing something similiar? Absolutely in the major leagues, not in the minors but that is a different topic.

It should be super easy to prove the Twins are doing it exactly like other teams, but nobody has even tried to prove that, shouldn't that be fairly easy, shouldn't like 80% of the games be the examples? And when I have pointed out numerous games that happen daily the come back is the Twins pitchers are just not good enough isn't that more reflective of the job the FO is doing? 

I think the consensus on TD is that Berrios has been pretty terrible this year correct? On three occasions he has been allowed to face the number 9 hitter, and once face the lead off hitter 4 times (total times a Twins pitcher has faced the 9 hitter - Twice),  14 times he has faced 25 or more batters in a game, that is 3 more than the whole Twins team. Again I could do this exercise over and over and over, with pitchers that aren't Verlander, Kershaw and Scherzer) on just about every teamand you still going to try and save that it is 2 hitters a game? 

I get it that the average innings per start is going to be fairly close at the end of the year, but quite a bit of that will be a bunch of longer starts and a bunch of shorter shorts, but that isn't how the Twins get their average (they don't have a bunch of the longer games)

But hey if you want to continue to mislead people into believing they the are doing exactly what everybody else is doing, you be you and other people can say generally understand what the Twins are doing at any given time, but there are teams and pitchers that wouldn't be taken out in certain scenarios.

Many of us have provided numerous stats on everything you're asking for and all you do is bring up random games of pitcher X facing Y number of hitters and say it proves the rest of the league isn't doing something extremely similar to what the Twins are doing.

The average MLB starter faces 22.02 batters per start. The Twins starters face 20.18. That is less than 2 batters per start. I've already pointed this out yet you keep suggesting I haven't. If you think less than 2 batters a game (not outs, batters mind you) is "extreme" there's nothing I can say. I have proven it over, and over, and over with multiple stats in multiple ways. I don't know how else to prove it beyond they're literally less than 2 batters less than what the league as a whole is doing. They're 3.5 batters off the league leading Astros. Less than 2 off average and 3.5 off the league leader. You think that's extreme. I think its not. There we go.

Jose Berrios is averaging far less innings per start this year than he did with the Twins. What point are you even trying to make? He was throwing 200 innings a year for the Twins because he was good and they let their pitchers go when they're good. Now he's bad so another team isn't letting him go. Sonny Gray is .02 innings off his per start number from last year.

If me using aggregate data is misleading because you pull out individual examples then we have a very different understanding of what misleading stats are. Dylan Bundy had an 8 inning start this year so I guess I win because I could point to a random game? Joe Ryan has 7 starts over the MLB average so I win? Getting through the 6th without having to face the 9 hole hitter shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing. But you're so obsessed with these random batter per game totals even though 2 of us have now explained to you that facing more hitters doesn't automatically mean a good thing. 

You love batters faced so I'll finish with, once again, the Twins are less than 2 off the league norm and 3.5 off the league leaders. If you think those averages are garbage after 120 games per team I can't help you. If any teams were doing things "extremely" different like you claim they are those averages wouldn't be that close. The Twins aren't doing anything extreme and I've run out of ways to prove it. I'm sorry you think 2 batters a game is a extreme. Not outs, mind you. Batters.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Why is it so hard for people to admit that the average starter the third time through the order is worse than the average reliever in…

I will readily admit that that is what the data says.

However, I think that if you go deeper into the data, and case by case, that it starts to get murky.

Keep in mind Sonny Gray is an above average starter and the Twins have a below average bullpen.

[chpettit19]

39 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I will readily admit that that is what the data says.

However, I think that if you go deeper into the data, and case by case, that it starts to get murky.

Keep in mind Sonny Gray is an above average starter and the Twins have a below average bullpen.

As I said earlier, Sonny Gray is being used exactly how he has been for years. I mean he's .02 innings per start off.

Sonny Gray and Joe Ryan were going 6 innings a start when they were good and healthy. That's my problem with the "Twins don't treat their starters right" narrative. When those 2 were good and healthy they were going 6 or 7 innings. Now they've both had IL stints and haven't been as good so they aren't going as long. That's how it works.

Jose Berrios was throwing 200 innings a year when he was here. Including being on pace for 200 innings last year before he was traded. Kenta Maeda was above league average in innings per start when he was good in 2020 and the start of 2021. 

That's why the bigger problem is that they keep bringing in the Bundy, Archer, Happ, Shoemaker types. That's what people need to be mad about. They treat their good pitchers the way the other teams treat theirs. They just have had too many non-good pitchers lately.

[SwainZag]

44 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I will readily admit that that is what the data says.

However, I think that if you go deeper into the data, and case by case, that it starts to get murky.

Keep in mind Sonny Gray is an above average starter and the Twins have a below average bullpen.

You are very accurate. If Gray would have been pulled after the 6 innings, the outrage would have more legs, but he was given a chance,  The "spreadsheets" and data pointed at pulling him before the inning.  His pedigree and game performance said otherwise.  He was left in, gave up 2 hits and then was pulled.  If Bundy would have been on the mound I have no doubt in my mind there was no way he was going out there for the 7th.

[bean5302]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Why is it so hard for people to admit that the average starter the third time through the order is worse than the average reliever in batted ball data, counting stats, run prevention stats, literally every kind of stat you can think of and that's why every team is doing some very similar version of what the Twins are doing? Fine, they're more extreme by less than 2 hitters and less than an inning a game. That's what we're upset about? That's "extreme?"

The Twins have a ton of Dunnings and signed Perez in 2019. What are you even complaining about at this point? The Twins are doing what is provably the smart thing to do and you're mad over 2 hitters and 2 outs a game? You're mad the Twins don't have more Dane Dunnings or "career year at the age of 31 when nobody would give him anything more than Dylan Bundy" Martin Perez? You're mad the Twins aren't the 48-72 Royals or 53-65 Rangers? You're mad the Twins have a team ERA of 3.97 and not 4.09 like the Rangers or 4.70 like the Royals? 

When Gray and Ryan were healthy and pitching well they were getting 6 or 7 innings a start. How much context are you going to ignore? Joe Ryan has been terrible more than he's been good lately. His ERA has jumped an entire run in August alone. Joe Ryan pitched into the 6th in 5 of his first 8 starts before going on the IL. Since then he hasn't been all that good so he's only managed to do it 5 of his last 11. Sonny Gray hasn't averaged 6 innings a start since 2017 and has had an IL stint every year. He's made 30 starts in a season 1 time since 2015. So we're mad that he's pitching the same amount as he has for the last 5 years? He was at 5.09 innings/start in 2020. 5.19 in 2021. And is at basically exactly 5 this year even with a game he left early due to injury. Like the 1.2 inning start. He's at 5.17 if you take that 1 injury game out. Again, what is extreme about this? He's down from 5.19 last year to 5.17 this year and this is what we're mad about? This is what's extreme? .02 fewer innings per start? Come on.

Okay, lets move the goalposts again since you've lost every single initial argument on the original subject of this debate string and the strawmen you created to avoid the original subject of debate (whether or not starters show a major drop off in performance TTO)

It's not that hard to admit that. In an average game with an average starter pitching their average game, and an average reliever, the average reliever will be better on their FTO than the starter would be on their TTO. But that rarely actually happens. Each game is different. Sometimes the starter is dominating. Sometimes they're struggling. Sometimes the relievers aren't average or the average ones are worn out and you're calling the numbers of your Duffey's and Pagan's to come in and save the day.

Original goalpost - Starters have a major decline on their TTO. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - Almost nobody in baseball pitches 6+ innings. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - The Twins would allow a pitcher who is pitching well to pitch deep. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - The Twins would allow a front line starter to pitch deep. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - Well, Sonny Gray isn't a front line starter because he's hasn't been pitching well lately. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - Well, only elite pitchers are allowed to pitch 6+ innings. Status? Proven False.

There are 126 pitchers in MLB who have started games and have 70+ innings pitched without having a significant portion of their games as relievers. This is their "average" not their maximum.
(99) 79% average at least 5.1 innings per game. 
(66) 53% average at least 5.2 innings per game.
(34) 27% average at least 6.0 innings per game.

Literally half of all starting pitchers in MLB average at least 5.2 innings per start, but yes, only elite pitchers like Johnny Cueto and hard core durability machines like Yu Darvish average at least more than 6.0 innings per start.

In any case, since no matter how many examples you're given, you'll continue to be unreasonable, I'm out of this farse now.

[TwinsDr2021]

45 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Many of us have provided numerous stats on everything you're asking for and all you do is bring up random games of pitcher X facing Y number of hitters and say it proves the rest of the league isn't doing something extremely similar to what the Twins are doing.

You say random games but I just happen to be using a few examples out of hundreds. I could point out the game against the Tigers where Ryan went 5 innings gave up 3 hits, 1 run no walks and 9 k's while pitching 78 pitches while facing 20 guys. (I am not saying he should or should not have been taken out) and you are trying to tell everybody that is reading this thread that is every team does this? That is what you are saying. OR just recently against the Royals Ryan pitched 5 1/3 giving up 6 hits, 2 runs,2 BB and 6 K's 80 pitches and faced 24 batters and was taken out after striking out a guy with a man two men on base in a 3-2 game and Brent Rooker up (again not saying he should or shouldn't have been taken out, but you are saying that everybody pulls him there, and there are hundreds of examples where teams don't. There are example after example of games similiar to these, and your come back is that individual games don't count because of averages?

Didn't you say when good pitchers are going good teams let them go further?

 

47 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

The average MLB starter faces 22.02 batters per start. The Twins starters face 20.18.

Does that average that include bad starts and openers? Because if you think of bad starts as less than 4 innings for example, Ryan has 0, Bundy has 3, Gray has 2, Archer has 3, Smelzter has 2, Winder 1, Ober 2, Mahle 1, Chi Chi 1,  That is 15 starts (shorter than 4 innings) for the Twins and zero openers, so based on this shouldn't the Twins averages be higher? Shouldn't the twins compared to a team that has openers be higher? How do the Twins compare to other teams like them that send a starter out every time?

 

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

so I guess I win

Not sure what this means, since we basically agree on everything except you/me disagree on much further the Twins have gone on limiting their starting pitchers to exposure more than other teams..

[chpettit19]

23 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Okay, lets move the goalposts again since you've lost every single initial argument on the original subject of this debate string and the strawmen you created to avoid the original subject of debate (whether or not starters show a major drop off in performance TTO)

It's not that hard to admit that. In an average game with an average starter pitching their average game, and an average reliever, the average reliever will be better on their FTO than the starter would be on their TTO. But that rarely actually happens. Each game is different. Sometimes the starter is dominating. Sometimes they're struggling. Sometimes the relievers aren't average or the average ones are worn out and you're calling the numbers of your Duffey's and Pagan's to come in and save the day.

Original goalpost - Starters have a major decline on their TTO. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - Almost nobody in baseball pitches 6+ innings. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - The Twins would allow a pitcher who is pitching well to pitch deep. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - The Twins would allow a front line starter to pitch deep. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - Well, Sonny Gray isn't a front line starter because he's hasn't been pitching well lately. Status? Proven False.
Next goalpost - Well, only elite pitchers are allowed to pitch 6+ innings. Status? Proven False.

There are 126 pitchers in MLB who have started games and have 70+ innings pitched without having a significant portion of their games as relievers. This is their "average" not their maximum.
(99) 79% average at least 5.1 innings per game. 
(66) 53% average at least 5.2 innings per game.
(34) 27% average at least 6.0 innings per game.

Literally half of all starting pitchers in MLB average at least 5.2 innings per start, but yes, only elite pitchers like Johnny Cueto and hard core durability machines like Yu Darvish average at least more than 6.0 innings per start.

In any case, since no matter how many examples you're given, you'll continue to be unreasonable, I'm out of this farse now.

I'll play.

Original goalpost - Starters have a major decline on their TTO. Status? Proven False. 
     As already shown, starters go from a .690 OPS allowed to a .772 OPS allowed throughout their starts. If that's not a major decline I don't know what is. Especially when you add on that the reliever that comes in beats the starter AT THAT POINT IN THE GAME in every measurable pitching stat. But going from much better than a reliever to worse than a reliever isn't a something we should take into account when discussing the starters decline, right?

Next goalpost - Almost nobody in baseball pitches 6+ innings. Status? Proven False.
     34 pitchers in all of baseball at your arbitrary 70 inning cutoff. So 1 a team. Yeah, the league is just full of guys going 6+. It's overwhelming really. I mean if you jump to just 100 innings as a new random cutoff it's down to 26. Qualified pitchers? 23. So less than 1 per team. Man, they're just falling off trees!

Next goalpost - The Twins would allow a pitcher who is pitching well to pitch deep. Status? Proven False.
     Jose Berrios was on pace for 200 innings last year. Is your argument that they'd drastically changed their pitching philosophy? Joe Ryan went at least 6 innings in 3 of his first 4 starts this year. When he was, you know, good. Dylan Bundy has an 8 inning start. He actually went out for the 6th inning in 8 starts this year. Dylan Bundy and his 4.76 ERA has gone into the 6th inning 40% of his starts, but they clearly won't let guys go past 5 innings. I see your point.

Next goalpost - The Twins would allow a front line starter to pitch deep. Status? Proven False.
     See above. Like you're just writing "Proven False" for fun now.

Next goalpost - Well, Sonny Gray isn't a front line starter because he's hasn't been pitching well lately. Status? Proven False.
     Sonny Gray averaged 5.19 innings per start last year. 5.09 the year before. Take out his 1.2 inning injury start and he's at 5.17 this year. Has made 30 starts a season 1 time since 2015. Can we stop acting like he's Max Scherzer and that he isn't being treated the same way he has been his entire career on 3 other teams? But, fine, he's a front line starter who's super inefficient with his pitches and hasn't been a workhorse in 7 years. Free Sonny Gray!

Next goalpost - Well, only elite pitchers are allowed to pitch 6+ innings. Status? Proven False.
     The average ERA for a guy averaging 6+ innings? 2.88. Your precious xFIP? 3.44. Yeah, those guys are terrible. Definitely not the numbers of the elite pitchers in Major League Baseball. I see your point.

And, no, the original topic of this thread was the way the Twins use Sonny Gray. I mean his name is literally in the title. And, as has been proven every which way, the Twins are using him exactly how he's been used for the last 7 years. 

[chpettit19]

11 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

You say random games but I just happen to be using a few examples out of hundreds. I could point out the game against the Tigers where Ryan went 5 innings gave up 3 hits, 1 run no walks and 9 k's while pitching 78 pitches while facing 20 guys. (I am not saying he should or should not have been taken out) and you are trying to tell everybody that is reading this thread that is every team does this? That is what you are saying. OR just recently against the Royals Ryan pitched 5 1/3 giving up 6 hits, 2 runs,2 BB and 6 K's 80 pitches and faced 24 batters and was taken out after striking out a guy with a man two men on base in a 3-2 game and Brent Rooker up (again not saying he should or shouldn't have been taken out, but you are saying that everybody pulls him there, and there are hundreds of examples where teams don't. There are example after example of games similiar to these, and your come back is that individual games don't count because of averages?

Didn't you say when good pitchers are going good teams let them go further?

 

Does that average that include bad starts and openers? Because if you think of bad starts as less than 4 innings for example, Ryan has 0, Bundy has 3, Gray has 2, Archer has 3, Smelzter has 2, Winder 1, Ober 2, Mahle 1, Chi Chi 1,  That is 15 starts (shorter than 4 innings) for the Twins and zero openers, so based on this shouldn't the Twins averages be higher? Shouldn't the twins compared to a team that has openers be higher? How do the Twins compare to other teams like them that send a starter out every time?

 

Not sure what this means, since we basically agree on everything except you/me disagree on much further the Twins have gone on limiting their starting pitchers to exposure more than other teams..

And I point to the game between the Orioles and Blue Jays that you yourself pointed to to prove that other teams wouldn't do the same thing and say the Blue Jays took Ross Stripling out after 6.1 innings pitched, 1 hit, 72 pitches, and 20 hitters faced and say "YES OTHER TEAMS DO THIS!" It's why I'm saying you pointing to random games isn't proving your point. In that exact same game Baltimore pulled Austin Voth after 6 innings, 86 pitches, 21 batters faced and 2 hits allowed. OTHER TEAMS DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's why we look at aggregate data and don't pick and choose random games.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

As I said earlier, Sonny Gray is being used exactly how he has been for years. I mean he's .02 innings per start off.

I'm not interested in benchmarking each of Gray's starts against season-long or league wide averages.

I'm much more interested in letting Gray pitch as deep into a game as is reasonable.

Does that make sense?  The season long IP average will probably shake out at about the same place regardless, between 5.0 and 6.0 innings. Some nights he should go deeper (Dodgers game 8/10 in my opinion), some nights he won't make it as far, and occasionally there will be a game where he only needs to pitch 5 innings and some other guys can get some work. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

To understand where Gray is coming from, people can go back and look at Gray's better seasons and look at how his starts trended in the latter half of those seasons. Deep into lots of games in 2015, which granted was a while back, but 2019 wasn't too far into the past where he pitched through at least six innings in a majority of his 14 starts after the All Star break. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

To clarify, he pitched 6.0 or more innings per start, in 11 out of 14 starts after the All Star break in 2019.

Don't know about batters faced. That's a slightly different beast, as someone above pointed out.

[Phxman]

Rocco is really bad when it comes to the handling of pitchers.  Rocco has been the reason a lot of games were lost. Fire him and steal the coach from Cleveland.  Twins will be true winners then 

[chpettit19]

16 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I'm not interested in benchmarking each of Gray's starts against season-long or league wide averages.

I'm much more interested in letting Gray pitch as deep into a game as is reasonable.

Does that make sense?  The season long IP average will probably shake out at about the same place regardless, between 5.0 and 6.0 innings. Some nights he should go deeper (Dodgers game 8/10 in my opinion), some nights he won't make it as far, and occasionally there will be a game where he only needs to pitch 5 innings and some other guys can get some work. 

That's the point, though. The Twins are letting him pitch as deep into a game as reasonable based on today's standards. I think the vast majority of us here dislike today's standards so I think we're mostly all in agreement that we wish what was a reasonable starters length was longer. But it isn't. 

I also fully agree there are some starts that I'd have liked to see him go longer. The start that got this thread going wasn't one of those starts, though. He goes longer in some starts than others and he's pretty well established over the last handful of years that those will balance out to just over 5 innings a start for the year.

I think the average baseball fan wants to see starters go longer. What some of us push back on is the idea that Rocco is terrible and the Twins are doing something extreme in their handling of the pitching staff. This is just unfortunately how pitchers are handled now.

[Nine of twelve]

23 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Gray wants to be the workhorse. You could see it in the clip. That’s where I come down on this as well—let him pitch and see what happens.

 

This is exactly what Rocco did. And we what we saw happen was Gray giving up two hits to open the 7th inning in a 3-run game. If Gray wants to be allowed to pitch deeper then it's on him to get outs in this situation, not give up hits.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, Nine of twelve said:

This is exactly what Rocco did. And we what we saw happen was Gray giving up two hits to open the 7th inning in a 3-run game. If Gray wants to be allowed to pitch deeper then it's on him to get outs in this situation, not give up hits.

Look, if we are talking about a specific game, let’s talk about the Dodgers game on August 10th.

If we are talking about bigger picture, then address the stats I dug up and posted a few posts earlier. 

Sonny Gray is not being given chances to pitch deeper into games, and I think he should be, and I think it’s hurting the bullpen and the team record.

[Rosterman]

Y'know, the reality is that msoit starting pitchers do give up runs in their 5-6-7 or more innings of work. The question is just how many can you live with them giving up. Usually 3-4 can be a comfortable number of they throw 90-120 pitches and get you into the 7th or especially the 8th inning. 

At this point in time, you'd like to see Gray stretched out a tad more. Go over 150 innings, although not necessarily by much. His high of late was in 2019, although he did pitch more than 200 in 2014-15. He pitched 135 last year. At five innings a start, he might be luck to break that.

But, again, starting pitchers are supposed to giove up a few runs, a homer or two, but they are also supposed to be workhorses, so to speak, and give you innings.

The Twins can't continue to use four relief pitchers game after game after game.

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Rosterman said:

Y'know, the reality is that msoit starting pitchers do give up runs in their 5-6-7 or more innings of work. The question is just how many can you live with them giving up. Usually 3-4 can be a comfortable number of they throw 90-120 pitches and get you into the 7th or especially the 8th inning. 

At this point in time, you'd like to see Gray stretched out a tad more. Go over 150 innings, although not necessarily by much. His high of late was in 2019, although he did pitch more than 200 in 2014-15. He pitched 135 last year. At five innings a start, he might be luck to break that.

But, again, starting pitchers are supposed to giove up a few runs, a homer or two, but they are also supposed to be workhorses, so to speak, and give you innings.

The Twins can't continue to use four relief pitchers game after game after game.

chpettit had a great post up thread a bit, showing the trajectory of Gray's career. Yes, his young years, he went deeper, but 2014-15 is 7-8 yrs ago. Are you expecting him to all of a sudden be who he was for two seasons, 7-8 yrs ago, and not who he's been the past 6 yrs? Even after he's had some injuries during this season? And this obviously isn't just the Twins. What that tells me is that it isn't a pitching philosophy as much as going 7-8 innings isn't going to happen with him, that he's not that kind of a workhorse. I'm hoping for 5-6 good innings/game the rest of the season. If he makes it to 7 on occasion, good for him. That's a workhorse. And, personally, the problem isn't that he's only pitching 5-6 innings, it's that the FO didn't construct a better BP given that's really all starters are doing these days ... averaging 5.something innings per game. I think the Twins have shown they will let pitchers go longer, but you aren't going to see an average to good pitcher in today's game consistently hit 7-8 innings unless they are the very good to great kind. And I never viewed that video of Gray as him complaining about Rocco or the Twins so much as he wishes he could do that again. This season there may have been 2 or 3 games we maybe could have tried to push him to another inning, but I also don't think the Twins are holding him back, either.

 

On 8/19/2022 at 10:56 AM, chpettit19 said:

Gray hasn't been a work horse since his 3rd year in the bigs. His rookie year he made 10 starts and 12 appearances. 2014 he then made 33 starts. 2015 he made 31. Since then he's made 22, 27, 16, 11, 23, 31, 11 (2020), 26, and he's at 18 this year. Last year he averaged 5.19 innings per start. This year he's at 5.17 if you take out his 1.2 inning injury game. This is who Sonny Gray is and who he's been for a long, long time now.

 

[Brandon]

On 8/17/2022 at 7:49 AM, Battle ur tail off said:

Doesn't seem like Sonny is too happy with the way he has been handled this year. I like that Rocco sent him out for the 7th last night. Not sure what this means going forward but by listening to this interview, I would say enjoy Sonny Gray for this year and next because this sounds like a guy that doesn't really care for how he is being used and won't resign. 

He may not be happy about it but his next contract is likely his last shot at a big payday.  I imagine contract with the highest number will sign him including us.  
 

I think this year is payback for all those years we complained about Gardenhire and then Molitor leaving pitchers in too long.  

[Nine of twelve]

23 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Look, if we are talking about a specific game, let’s talk about the Dodgers game on August 10th.

If we are talking about bigger picture, then address the stats I dug up and posted a few posts earlier. 

Sonny Gray is not being given chances to pitch deeper into games, and I think he should be, and I think it’s hurting the bullpen and the team record.

Bigger picture: The job of a manager during the regular season is to win as many games as possible. That means getting the most out of their players over the course of a season, which in turn means not overworking them, which in turn sometimes means not necessarily trying to win the game currently being played if it would decrease the chances of future wins. Beyond that strategic matter, managers are in a far better position than any fan when it comes to making decisions. They have much more information available to them and they are much more knowledgeable about the game itself and understanding implications of their decisions. In this case, my assumption is that Baldelli and his staff have concluded that even though it does tax the bullpen to remove starters sooner than has typically been done in the past it would tax the starting rotation even more and result in fewer wins overall to have them pitch deeper into games.

[gunnarthor]

10 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

In this case, my assumption is that Baldelli and his staff have concluded that even though it does tax the bullpen to remove starters sooner than has typically been done in the past it would tax the starting rotation even more and result in fewer wins overall to have them pitch deeper into games.

If this is true, then something drastic needs to be done to the front office.

 

[notoriousgod71]

Rocco says, "I am the manager" as he takes Gray out after 69 pitches 

[USAFChief]

8 minutes ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Rocco says, "I am the manager" as he takes Gray out after 69 pitches 

I think it was the right move. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

44 minutes ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Rocco says, "I am the manager" as he takes Gray out after 69 pitches 

Those are the Rules. 

Twins have several off-days this week and the lesser bullpens guys will need to stay fresh. 
 

[gunnarthor]

43 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I think it was the right move. 

Eh. He had a rough sixth,  I suppose,  but he had the bottom of the lineup coming up. I don't know why they pull him then. But it's our philosophy.