Blue Jays 3, Twins 2: Bad Replay Review Costs Twins

[Rosterman]

Pagan grimace? Oh, no. We need a replacement. Is Duffey still available? Can we bring him back?

Or...The Return of Cotton or Minaya or THORNBURG!

[darwin22]

1 hour ago, Mark G said:

We all know I am not a fan of Rocco, for reasons I have mentioned here before.  But, dang, Rocco, you did what you needed to do at that moment, and I am dang proud of you!!  I have been waiting for the fire in the belly during a tight race, in a tight game, and you showed you have it.  Now, keep it!!  

Good job, Rocco!!

Agreed 100% with your remarks!  Not only proud to see Rocco's tirade on the field, but even more impressed that he "doubled down" in post-game comments.  Posted this in game day thread, but for Rocco to call out MLB (in New York) using words as "one of the worst" calls ever in this situation and that it was "pathetic."  I may be reaching here, but I think Rocco's postgame rant was intentional by calling out MLB that the Twins are HIS TEAM and he will not idly by when an egregious call is made in such a critical situation.  I truly think Rocco is sick and tired.....as he SHOULD BE....with the prevailing attitude of MLB hierarchy as well as other teams that the Twins are a pushover. Time to step up, stand your ground and stop being 'Minnesota Nice'---------nothing wrong with being nice and respectful to your opponent (the league, opposing team and players) but that can be accomplished AFTER you beat them.

[HerbieFan]

1 hour ago, ChermesZ said:

Mark Carlson and Paul Emmel were the replay umpires. 
 

 

Remember the names Twins fans.  When (IF??) they are calling a Twins game, I'd expect they are given the proper "welcome"

[Doctor Gast]

Starting the game, the cards were stacked against us. We had no big guns in the BP available, no Correa, no Buxton and I'd preferred that Leon started because I don't like how Sanchez calls the game & would have been very interesting to see how Leon handles Archer.

Archer toned down his game (as I hoped), which resulted in less SOs but no BBs & able to go 5 innings. After a long wait they finally used long relief, although it's not the situation or RP I'd preferred, it worked out very well having Sands pitching 3 scoreless innings. Theilbar was put in a very awkward situation who is not a closer and a LHP against a dominating RH hitting line-up. Now if we use long relief more often we'd win more games and have a well rested & happy pitching staff.The pitching was great but the line up was mainly dead, only scratching out 2 runs when in the 8th & 9th when they finally got there lead batters on.

When they should've been slaughtered they end up losing the game only on a bad over turn. Hats off to today's pitching corp.

 

[Dantes929]

2 hours ago, Sutter50 said:

You have got to be kidding.  He makes a great accurate throw also "fundamentally sound" and you think he screwed up? Just wow! Unbelievable 

I said it was a good throw.   Watch again.   You don't think most outfielders get rid of it more quickly?    He caught it, double clutched it, then took his crow hop.    It's not like he had to change directions or guage the bounce of a ball.   He couldn't have thrown it any better but yeah, I absolutely think he could have got rid of it quicker.   Shallow fly ball that was closer than it should have been.

[wabene]

33 minutes ago, Dantes929 said:

I said it was a good throw.   Watch again.   You don't think most outfielders get rid of it more quickly?    He caught it, double clutched it, then took his crow hop.    It's not like he had to change directions or guage the bounce of a ball.   He couldn't have thrown it any better but yeah, I absolutely think he could have got rid of it quicker.   Shallow fly ball that was closer than it should have been.

He did double clutch it but that was irrelevant. The throw beat him easy anyway. 

[Dman]

Ill intent or not New York umpires always find a way to screw the Twins.  It is just in their nature.  I have looked at the replay a lot and it seems to me that Sanchez does everything he can to not block the plate until he has the ball  and he has the ball before the runner is at the plate so New York please explain the the absolute certainty that this met the rules of overturning with incontrovertible evidence.  It can't be done.  They totally effed this one up.  Someone is going to have some explaining to do.

I mean how do the umps on the field get it right and New York gets it wrong?  I don't understand how they make that call? I am with Rocco on this one it is just plain embarrassing.  Replay was supposed to fix stuff like this not not make it worse.  Bad day for baseball today IMO.

[insagt1]

This one was right up there with that 1st base ump blowing the call to rob that kid of a perfect game. Clearly got it wrong. Interesting that the same thing apparently happened in Baltimore too, An out call was reversed for the same reason. Terrible rule. Calls on the field are supposed to stand unless there is clear, irrefutable evidence to the contrary...which there wasn't. Toronto gifted us a win on Saturday and the boys in NY gifted them a win today.

buxton--a growing enigma. What a terrible AB today...as his k's continue to mount. In and out of the lineup...that can't help him getting into a groove. Coming in cold today was a sure bet he would 'Sano' the AB.  I also agree Kepler should have tagged up in the 10th. You must get that runner over to 3rd and he had a legit shot at doing so. guess it still hurts to run.

Tough loss.

[h2oface]

4 hours ago, wabene said:

He did double clutch it but that was irrelevant. The throw beat him easy anyway. 

It was not irrelevant. After all, it was overturned. The throw didn't beat him easy.... or by a mile as another posted stated at the beginning of the thread. It did beat him, and he was out for sure. Gotta think that it might not have been overturned if the ball had been there sooner. 

The home-plate collision rule states that the catcher is not allowed to block the runner’s path to the plate unless he is in possession of the ball or making a “legitimate attempt” to receive a throw.     

Just that little bit sooner and Sanchez is allowed by rule to be in the runner's path. Then it is upheld. It should have been upheld anyway, but that could have been the kicker.

[Aichiman]

Nice to see some fire from the manager!  I hope it ignites our team to go kick some butt in LA!

 

[TopTwinsFan]

This was a big game for the Twins and may be remembered as the day the Twins laid down the gauntlet and started to truly kick ass. That horrific call was mind numbingly frustrating but the Twins played excellent baseball overall on a day many players needed a day off and our 5th starter started against Toronto's ace. It may well be remembered though for galvanizing the team. Baldelli's response to the call was appropriate and inspiring. As a Twins fan I am now ready to go to war for this man. Great managers react and act in moments like those. He is becoming an excellent manager. The Twins are going to finish this season strong and win a playoff game. Heck maybe even a playoff series.

[TopTwinsFan]

I cant stand Whit Merrifield.

[bean5302]

Defense this series has been terrible, for both teams. The overturned call was ridiculous, but the Twins weren't able to get any runs across the plate until very late in the game, despite the Blue Jays fielding poorly.

[wabene]

1 hour ago, h2oface said:

It was not irrelevant. After all, it was overturned. The throw didn't beat him easy.... or by a mile as another posted stated at the beginning of the thread. It did beat him, and he was out for sure. Gotta think that it might not have been overturned if the ball had been there sooner. 

The home-plate collision rule states that the catcher is not allowed to block the runner’s path to the plate unless he is in possession of the ball or making a “legitimate attempt” to receive a throw.     

Just that little bit sooner and Sanchez is allowed by rule to be in the runner's path. Then it is upheld. It should have been upheld anyway, but that could have been the kicker.

You are right I guess that it didn't beat him easy, but the rest of what you say doesn't make sense. "unless he is in possession of the ball or making a “legitimate attempt” to receive a throw" Just looking at this passage you quoted it clearly wouldn't matter if the play was close or not, in possession or making an attempt means the ball is there or arriving. All that said this is just a pointless quibble. 

[sthpstm]

Who cares about being screwed in 1 game by a bad call when poor hitting with men on base has screwed you in many, many games. 11 hits and 2 runs…that’s the problem here.

[ChermesZ]

12 minutes ago, sthpstm said:

Who cares about being screwed in 1 game by a bad call when poor hitting with men on base has screwed you in many, many games. 11 hits and 2 runs…that’s the problem here.

Very true.  However, this sort of thing cannot be normalized from the Twins perspective.  If it were Philly or New York, umpires would be punished by the crowd and fans.  There cannot be multiple sets of rules based on fan reaction - the MLB umpires need to pony up and say they messed up.  Otherwise the silence emanating from them implies they had a ‘perfect’ game.

[bighat]

The blocking-the-plate rule makes sense. After all, dozens of MLB players every year were hospitalized due to collisions at home plate. In fact, over the years, thousands of major leag-----------wait, what's that? Out of the 20,000 baseball players who have ever played the game, 0.0001% of them ever left the game because of the collision, and as of yet nobody's career has been ended by such a play? 

WTF. This was a great baseball play. This is why fans go to games - to see a guy thrown out at home in extra innings. It doesn't happen every day, but it's that type of excitement and drama that true baseball fans just LOVE. It's the equivalent of a last-second hail mary, it's like a goal in extra time. In fact, one could argue that there is no more exciting play in baseball than this.

Ruined by a couple of AL East-happy suits in NYC.

If MLB truly wants to protect the players in this situation, how about this - if Merrifield gets injured on a play like that, the umps can review the play to reverse the call and/or fine Sanchez for malicious behavior.  Similarly, if the runner goes right into the catcher (like Merrified did) and hurts Sanchez, that player can also be ejected and/or fined. 

Absolute horse-$h%@!.

[jmlease1]

A tough loss, especially with the replay insanity at the end.

But it was really good to see Sands fill a long relief role like that. I think a lot of us have been wanting to see someone like him (or Winder, perhaps) stepping in after Archer (or others) only goes 4-5 innings and giving us a planned 2-3 innings. If Sands can be that guy and come in every 3-4 days and give a longer stretch, that will play up nicely.

Offense will need to do better than this, though. (The injuries are getting tough) Hopefully Kepler is actually healthy enough to be a hitter and not just gutting through it. Maybe Larnach will be back soon?

[Whitey333]

Yes a bad call but let's not overdue it here.  That didn't cost the Twins the game.  It was starting out with a very questionable lineup.  Even though Buxton and Correa have sucked for about 6 weeks, you can't leave both of your supposed superstar players out of the starting lineup  on the same day.  That has happened too many times this season.  What kind of signal does that send to players and fans?  That you have no interest in competing?  Someone needs to remind Rocco that we are in a pennant race.  Poor baseball, lack of clutch hitting, and poor baserunning doomed the game well before that play at home.  There's a built in day off Thursday.  Correa has no business sitting out as well. He may not have done anything anyway but at least show that you care.

[rv78]

54 minutes ago, sthpstm said:

Who cares about being screwed in 1 game by a bad call when poor hitting with men on base has screwed you in many, many games. 11 hits and 2 runs…that’s the problem here.

Agree. They improved the pitching at the deadline but nothing to help the offense. Praise be to Rocco for showing some emotion, yet.... again he rests Buxton and Correa on the same day. Maybe it's time for Buxton to go on the IL if he can't play everyday. He's been resembling K-Sano a lot so if he can't play at a normal level of himself maybe it's time to remove him from the lineup completely for a while. Maybe his bonus hasn't kicked in yet for making the required number of plate appearances? How many days off does Mr. Superstar $35M dollar man Correa need? Hail be to Kepler for coming back from his injured toe so quickly, his 0 for 9 at the plate since his return has helped this team immensely and Rocco's insistance on batting him in the middle of the lineup does wonders to sustain rallys in almost every game he plays. Glad they called up Mr Clutch Jake Cave. In his 5 games played to date he's managed to account for 2 runs, 1 of them a meaningless late HR in a 9-3 blowout and he's only left 13 runners on base. Only a matter of time, short in fact, that he'll be hitting below the mendosa line. Hopefully he'll be back in St. Paul where he belongs sooner rather than later. 

[Whitey333]

Yes a bad call but let's not overdue it here.  That didn't cost the Twins the game.  It was starting out with a very questionable lineup.  Even though Buxton and Correa have sucked for about 6 weeks, you can't leave both of your supposed superstar players out of the starting lineup  on the same day.  That has happened too many times this season.  What kind of signal does that send to players and fans?  That you have no interest in competing?  Someone needs to remind Rocco that we are in a pennant race.  Poor baseball, lack of clutch hitting, and poor baserunning doomed the game well before that play at home.  There's a built in day off Thursday.  Correa has no business sitting out as well. He may not have done anything anyway but at least show that you care.

[VivaBomboRivera!]

13 hours ago, wabene said:

Man that was a damn exciting baseball game! The drama! My paisano Mr Baldelli is not prone to histrionics, to the consternation of many, but by golly he showed his deep knowledge of the game today as well as how strong his ability is to not over react by the contrast of his actions today. I have never enjoyed dirt being kicked on home plate more! 

He flipped the bird to the replay cameras, too...

[chpettit19]

14 hours ago, h2oface said:

Absolutely. Double clutched. The game wasn't lost on that poor call. It was lost on Kepler's boneheaded baserunning, not tagging and advancing to third, and then scoring on Gordon's deep grounder. That wouldn't have won the game, but it provided the loss. It should have tied the game.

Tim Beckham is not an outfielder and came up with a perfect throw that beat the runner and the runner was out. We're reaching way too far for complaints when a throw right on the plate that beats a runner and results in an out is now being criticized for not being better. You realize that Gordon's deep grounder wouldn't have been a deep grounder with Kepler on 3rd because the infield likely would've been in, correct? And while I think Kepler needed to go back to tag, I don't know that he beats the throw to 3rd from the left center gap. That's certainly not a given.

[chpettit19]

14 hours ago, Dantes929 said:

Yeah, I know he was out at home.   I also know it was a good throw right on the money.   Anyone else think Beckham wasted time with delivering it home?   That crow hop should be made as he is catching the ball rather than taking the time after the catch.    Basically saying that throw could have beat the runner by an extra 5 feet easy.   Everyone yesterday was talking about fundamentals when I was thinking they were most just physical errors.  This was more along the lines of fundamental mistake, imo.

So the infielder playing OF took an extra step to make sure his throw was on target and we're upset? Come on now. I know they're professional athletes and we all want them to be perfect while doing the things we can't, but an extra split second to gather himself while making a throw he's likely never made in a professional game seems like something that maybe doesn't need to be complained about. He's played 95 professional OF innings. The throw was perfect and beat the runner but we still need to complain it wasn't perfecter?

[Sparky55]

If you get a chance watch the Pirates/Orioles game highlights from yesterday on a similar play at the plate where the catcher obviously blocks the plate and tags the runner out and the play was NOT overturned. I assume the same replay officials watched both plays? Not sure hoe many people we have in NY making calls. Seems like a stupid rule. What happens at first base it the throw takes the 1st baseman into the path of the runner? He goes and tries to field it and the runner can and usually does run into him, why is home plate different?

[USAFChief]

18 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

So the infielder playing OF took an extra step to make sure his throw was on target and we're upset? Come on now. I know they're professional athletes and we all want them to be perfect while doing the things we can't, but an extra split second to gather himself while making a throw he's likely never made in a professional game seems like something that maybe doesn't need to be complained about. He's played 95 professional OF innings. The throw was perfect and beat the runner but we still need to complain it wasn't perfecter?

We can certainly observe that playing an infielder in the outfield certainly contributed to the play, since he took not one BUT TWO crowhops, costing not just a "split second" but enough time to make what should have been "out by 15 feet" to close enough to be screwed by replay.

The popup was to very shallow left. It shouldn't have even been close.

It was a poorly executed and thereby late throw. It doesn't make one a "bad fan" to recognize and acknowledge that. That we're playing an infielder in the OF doesn't make it better, either. It's a cause, perhaps, not an excuse. Bad defense shows up in many ways. We laugh when an opponent makes a bad play. We can't lament when the Twins do? We can't expect better?

 

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

We can certainly observe that playing an infielder in the outfield certainly contributed to the play, since he took not one BUT TWO crowhops, costing not just a "split second" but enough time to make what should have been "out by 15 feet" to close enough to be screwed by replay.

The popup was to very shallow left. It shouldn't have even been close.

It was a poorly executed and thereby late throw. It doesn't make one a "bad fan" to recognize and acknowledge that. That we're playing an infielder in the OF doesn't make it better, either. It's a cause, perhaps, not an excuse. Bad defense shows up in many ways. We laugh when an opponent makes a bad play. We can't lament when the Twins do? We can't expect better?

 

Nobody called anyone a "bad fan" so let's not go putting those words in my mouth/keyboard, Chief. And nobody has "observed" playing an infielder in the outfield contributed to the play, they've "observed" that despite having made the play he should've made it better. He didn't make a bad play! Did he double clutch or crow hop twice because he didn't know if Merrifield was going to go? Or is it possible he didn't have a good grip on the ball so he had to regather himself because he's, you know, human? Throwing a guy out a home isn't "bad defense."

Everyone's allowed to be a fan in their own way and I haven't told anyone on any of these boards they shouldn't be allowed to say anything they want to say. And I'm allowed to disagree with those "laments" when it's about something I don't think should be "lamented" about. No, you can't expect better than throwing someone out at the plate. He literally did what you want him to do so I will point out that it's an unnecessarily negative take to wish he threw a guy out at the plate better than he threw him out at the plate.

[USAFChief]

15 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Nobody called anyone a "bad fan" so let's not go putting those words in my mouth/keyboard, Chief. And nobody has "observed" playing an infielder in the outfield contributed to the play, they've "observed" that despite having made the play he should've made it better. He didn't make a bad play! Did he double clutch or crow hop twice because he didn't know if Merrifield was going to go? Or is it possible he didn't have a good grip on the ball so he had to regather himself because he's, you know, human? Throwing a guy out a home isn't "bad defense."

Everyone's allowed to be a fan in their own way and I haven't told anyone on any of these boards they shouldn't be allowed to say anything they want to say. And I'm allowed to disagree with those "laments" when it's about something I don't think should be "lamented" about. No, you can't expect better than throwing someone out at the plate. He literally did what you want him to do so I will point out that it's an unnecessarily negative take to wish he threw a guy out at the plate better than he threw him out at the plate.

It was a bad play by the left fielder. That bad play contributed to the winning run scoring. I don't think that's controversial or even debatable. 

And there's nothing "unnecessarily negative" about pointing that out.

 

 

[chpettit19]

11 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

It was a bad play by the left fielder. That bad play contributed to the winning run scoring. I don't think that's controversial or even debatable. 

And there's nothing "unnecessarily negative" about pointing that out.

 

 

He threw the guy out at the plate. I don't see how that in any way equals a bad play. So anytime Correa doesn't hit the 1B directly in the chest in 1 smooth motion with no extra movement in fielding or throwing the ball when he gets an out at first it's a bad play? Cuz that's the argument you're making. The runner was out at home. The fielder got the ball to the catcher before the runner got there and the catcher tagged the runner out. That's not a bad play. It may have been imperfect execution with the extra step, but arguing it is a bad play is beyond controversial, it's flat out wrong. Thus it's unnecessarily negative. If the standard for a play not being bad is that a player never makes any extra movements during a play then there have been very, very few non-bad plays in the history of baseball.

[Otto von Ballpark]

55 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

came up with a perfect throw that beat the runner 

If not for Sánchez's leg, Merrifield would have touched the plate safely before he could be tagged out. That's not really "beating the runner", is it? Or if it is, it seems akin to a high/wide throw to first "beating the runner" but requiring the first baseman to leave the bag to catch it, allowing the runner to reach safely.